Conrad Murray trial -Day nine.

[borndem]

Being a psych nurse for 29 years, I've also worked the substance abuse/detox units.
If MJ were AS addicted to drugs as some suspect... I think that there would've been more in his system at autopsy.

As someone else said here, drug addicts take whatever is available to them.
They forget what, when, and how much of the drug was last taken.

I think that MJ became physically & mentally troubled AFTER CM became his private medical doctor.

MJ's manager and others, at the rehearsals days before MJ's death, noticed that MJ was not well.
They adsked for a conference with CM. They asked that a blood test be done on MJ, to see what was wrong with him.

CM refused both a conference & a blood (drug?) test.

As a doctor, CM has never acted ethically in treating MJ.

Even if MJ were addicted or needed to be weaned/detoxed off meds... CM should've known that he (MJ) needed to be in a hospital or highly supervised, facility, with nurses & doctors keeping track of his vital signs, his reactions, AND his physical & mental status at all times.

If MJ refused to go to a hospital or other controlled setting, he could've been papered as a danger to himself.

Thanks for your special insight & knowledge, peace. This story just gets sadder and sadder. MJ was still such a little boy in so many ways. No wonder he loved children so (and I don't mean in a bad way).

And CM was such an unfortunate choice at such an unfortunate time.

Arogance coupled with incompetence is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[MissJames]

So far for me.
Reasonable doubt:
Mystery Finger Prints on cut saline bag and Mystery Finger Prints on propofol bottle found inside the bag.
Elissa made some bad judgments on the evidence collection.

Guilty: Propofol administered in home setting.
Dr. Murray not monitoring MJ every minute.

I will have to wait to see what I would do if I was on the jury until the defense is finished with their witnesses. I heard on one of the show this morning there is a very knowledgable person going to testify for the defense. Mr. White/or Dr. White.
Anyone know?

Not one person has claimed there was a mystery person present,but Dr. Murray claims HE was present for all but 2 minutes.He puts himself there and no one else.
JMO

 

[PeteyGirl]

I agree with what Dr. Drew just said, Conrad Murray was in a very bad situation, way over his head.

He had a choice he failed to make, in the very beginning. To refuse to participate.

Once he agreed to participate, I can totally see how he was railroaded, relentlessly begged and demanded and hounded, even threatened.

CM could have declined to be involved from the get go, but he did not.

The pressure CM was under is almost unimaginable. But the normal doctor/patient relationship was backwards from how it should be. He was tempted and giving into it resulted in this

I have a lot of sympathy for CM. I also see the pure justice of him being charged with manslaughter.

 

[Velouria]

Watching the media legal pundits I am surprised that they are taking at face value the comments made by CM in the interview given at the Ritz-Carlton with his attorney's present. Obviously CM was coached extensively by his lawyers to provide a carefully fabricated version of events that would open the door for acquittal. His claim that MJ wanted to inject himself because he "loved the push" and that Murray forbid MJ to self-inject is not to be believed but provides the DT the foundation to claim that MJ disobeyed CM when the Doctor stepped out of the room.

And if you were to believe this claim by the defense, then CM was STILL negligent.

You don't leave an addict unsupervised with a cache of drugs just so you can call your girlfriend of the week.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree with what Dr. Drew just said, Conrad Murray was in a very bad situation, way over his head.

Well that is what greed can do but it doesnt lessen his responsiblity for what he and he alone did.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

And if you were to believe this claim by the defense, then CM was STILL negligent.

You don't leave an addict unsupervised with a cache of drugs just so you can call your girlfriend of the week.

Yes, even the DT has proven Murray is guilty when they admit he left the room.

No doctor in their right mind leaves drugs accessible to an addict and completely leaves them alone. That is like giving a box of matches to an arsonist and watching them as they burn a home to the ground.

Although I don't believe the hogwash about MJ ingesting or injecting the propofol. That is just a convenient blame the victim argument being used in hopes of getting a very guilty client off. Imo, it will not fly.

Common sense will rule the day.

 

[Lqqkout]

He had a choice he failed to make, in the very beginning. To refuse to participate.

Once he agreed to participate, I can totally see how he was railroaded, relentlessly begged and demanded and hounded, even threatened.

CM could have declined to be involved from the get go, but he did not.

The pressure CM was under is almost unimaginable. But the normal doctor/patient relationship was backwards from how it should be. He was tempted and giving into it resulted in this

I have a lot of sympathy for CM. I also see the pure justice of him being charged with manslaughter.

/in my opinion, Dr. Murray is guilty of negligence. Since propofol is a legal drug for doctor's use, Dr Murray, did not break any laws. But when Dr. Murray left MJ's side he was acting negligent. It would be the same as going into surgery and the anesthesiologist went to lunch during the procedure. I think he is guilty of negligence and should definitely lose his license. At the very least.

 

[borndem]

Up to 7:30 and nothing has worked to sleep. Now 10:30 MJ is complaining he cannot sleep. I can't catch exactly what Murray is saying he is giving him. Ok now admits to giving propofol. Detective asks what is this propofol. Murray explains. Given iv form.

CM's explanation of Propofol is, "a sedative that can be used for anesthesia." (What did you say, Doc???)

 

[MissJames]

Agree, either MJ's staff was oblivious or they wanted to keep their jobs, however, the Medical Doctor who provided the anesthesia and/or drugs is the one who should be held accountable. He is the one who should have known the dangers and therefore was reckless and negligent.

MOO

In the past ,members of MJ's family have said he would cut off communication if an intervention was attempted.
Even in this emergency situation ,the first security staffer was reluctant to even enter the house,much less Michael's bedroom.
The chef said she "went back to work" after Dr. Murray called for Prince ,in a frantic state. I think they were trained to stay out of the drama or they would be gone .

I don't know if MJ was currently abusing other drugs,but he went to great lengths to get some sleep. Whatever his problem or responsibility ,MJ paid the ultimate price with his life.
Dr. Murray will have to pay for his part in Michael's death.
As I've said before, IMO Dr. Murray is a drug dealer with a title. Four years isn't enough.

 

[Crosby87]

Dr. Murray selected what he recorded on his Iphone on May 5 2009. The recording begins with Michael saying “Elvis didn’t do it, The Beatles didn’t do it” which makes you realize Michael was in the middle of the conversation when Dr. Murray pressed the record button.

What is odd though is before the tape ends there are two moments of silence and
Dr. Murray asks Michael if he is okay... then Michael says "I am asleep". People who are asleep don't answer questions so this seems to indicate they were planning Michael's death.

The forensic analyst who examined the IPhone didn't say whether Dr. Murray stopped the tape then started it again to record Michael's word, "I am sleeping." and then stopped it after another few seconds of silence. No wonder some thought Michael wasn't really dead after he was declared dead by Dr. Cooper.

For the record, what was on the tape is not the entire conversation CM had with MJ.

When Michael’s manager wanted to know what was going on with Michael on June 20 2009, Dr. Murray did not want his manager to know what was going on between them. At this point in time, Dr. Murray had been MJs private physician for approximately 3 months.

Dr. Murray injected Michael’s kneecap which would make it difficult for Michael to perform.
Pharmacist Mr. Lopez testified that CM ordered him to increase the percentage in the Lidocaine cream from 2% to 4% which would keep a body part frozen longer and cause a lump to form in the kneecap over time. Injecting the kneecap would disfigure it.

On the tape played in court today, Dr. Murray said there was no phone available to call 911 when Michael stopped breathing but he had a cell phone with him that he used that morning.

I have only followed this case for 4 days and find Dr. Murray’s behavior very distressing.
Dr. Murray had been Michael’s private physician for nearly 3 months and because Michael "wanted to do the tour", Dr. Murray could no longer have exclusive control over Michael.

When Michael’s manager saw Michael on June 20 at rehearsal, he said Michael was in acute distress and my opinion is Dr. Murray was a major source of Michael’s distress.

Conrad Murray intended to kill Michael either with or without Michael's consent and he should have been charged with first degree murder.

JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

He had a choice he failed to make, in the very beginning. To refuse to participate.

Once he agreed to participate, I can totally see how he was railroaded, relentlessly begged and demanded and hounded, even threatened.

CM could have declined to be involved from the get go, but he did not.

The pressure CM was under is almost unimaginable. But the normal doctor/patient relationship was backwards from how it should be. He was tempted and giving into it resulted in this

I have a lot of sympathy for CM. I also see the pure justice of him being charged with manslaughter.

The more I see him lie and spin and throw everyone else under the bus for his own wrongdoings the less sympathy I have for him. Even though I know he didn't intentionally mean to kill MJ because he was certainly worth more to him alive than dead.

He should have split the pot with Dr. Adams but imo his greed got in the way. Dr. Adams had the experience and knowledge and if he was hired then CM would know he would not be needed and Dr. Adams wouldn't have treated MJs insomnia using propofol but would have taken a sleep specialist with him to the UK per his attorney.

Adams has sedated over 6,000 patients and not one of them has died.

The pressure he was under was of his own design. He wanted to be the big cheese. Not only known as MJs personal doctor but meeting and hobnobbing with the celebrities......especially the ladies. As JVM says; 'Murray is a player."

As this case unfolds I really think he should have been charged with a higher degree than IM. That seems to trivialize what he really did. What he did has turned the medical community upside down with their profession being questioned.

IMO

 

[Lqqkout]

In the past ,members of MJ's family have said he would cut off communication if an intervention was attempted.
Even in this emergency situation ,the first security staffer was reluctant to even enter the house,much less Michael's bedroom.
The chef said she "went back to work" after Dr. Murray called for Prince ,in a frantic state. I think they were trained to stay out of the drama or they would be gone .

I don't know if MJ was currently abusing other drugs,but he went to great lengths to get some sleep. Whatever his problem or responsibility ,MJ paid the ultimate price with his life.
Dr. Murray will have to pay for his part in Michael's death.
As I've said before, IMO Dr. Murray is a drug dealer with a title. Four years isn't enough.

I completely agree with you..If it took propofol to get Michael the sleep that was so elusive to him, Dr. Murray should have stayed with MJ the entire night to monitor him. If he had been in the room, imo when MJ stopped breathing, he may still be alive, but Dr. Murray who was hired to help MJ get sleep, not infuse such a powerful drug and leave him alone. I would bet MJ wasn't breathing the entire 45 minutes Dr. Murray was busy on his cell phone. He was not doing his job of caring for Mj.

 

[Lqqkout]

In the past ,members of MJ's family have said he would cut off communication if an intervention was attempted.
Even in this emergency situation ,the first security staffer was reluctant to even enter the house,much less Michael's bedroom.
The chef said she "went back to work" after Dr. Murray called for Prince ,in a frantic state. I think they were trained to stay out of the drama or they would be gone .

I don't know if MJ was currently abusing other drugs,but he went to great lengths to get some sleep. Whatever his problem or responsibility ,MJ paid the ultimate price with his life.
Dr. Murray will have to pay for his part in Michael's death.
As I've said before, IMO Dr. Murray is a drug dealer with a title. Four years isn't enough.

According to toxicology, MJ was not abusing drugs. The only drugs in his blood and urine was sleep medicines.

 

[MissJames]

/in my opinion, Dr. Murray is guilty of negligence. Since propofol is a legal drug for doctor's use, Dr Murray, did not break any laws. But when Dr. Murray left MJ's side he was acting negligent. It would be the same as going into surgery and the anesthesiologist went to lunch during the procedure. I think he is guilty of negligence and should definitely lose his license. At the very least.

It would be the same if the anesthesiologist went to lunch during during the procedure , along with everyone else who would be in attendance ,unplugging the monitors as they walked out the door. :banghead:

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I completely agree with you..If it took propofol to get Michael the sleep that was so elusive to him, Dr. Murray should have stayed with MJ the entire night to monitor him. If he had been in the room, imo when MJ stopped breathing, he may still be alive, but Dr. Murray who was hired to help MJ get sleep, not infuse such a powerful drug and leave him alone. I would bet MJ wasn't breathing the entire 45 minutes Dr. Murray was busy on his cell phone. He was not doing his job of caring for Mj.

I couldn't really make a lot of sense out of Murray's reasonings.

He goes on and on how closely he watched him when he gave him the other meds or even when he had MJ meditate yet when he gives the most serious drug of all he just walks off??:banghead:

I don't think Murray had been in that room the entire time he was making phone calls or texting. That is why MJs eyes were fixed and dilated and already dry!

 

[Lqqkout]

It would be the same if the anesthesiologist went to lunch during during the procedure , along with everyone else who would be in attendance ,unplugging the monitors as they walked out the door. :banghead:

exactly...............

 

[FLmom777]

I wanted to state a few thoughts I had after today.

First, I do not see evidence that MJ was using drugs as an addict when he died. I really think he had control over his past addictions to pain meds. There were drugs found that had been there a long time and had not been consumed. They were not present in the toxicology reports.

I think he was truly struggling with not being able to sleep and found the only thing he could to get rest. While listening to the CM tape today something hit me. He spoke of allowing the use of his clinic in Vegas for another Dr. to administer propophol. He said something about the plastic surgeon only doing it if an actual procedure was performed. This could explain the vast amount of work done. He was so desperate for sleep that he just kept getting work done.

From many biographies I have read, severe insomnia seems to be a common theme among brilliant minds. It is too bad that he chose this route to find sleep instead of going to a sleep clinic for help.

I honestly feel like he was just trying to sleep. CM should have sought help from experts but it seems like he was too arrogant to admit he was not capable of treating MJ.

 

[borndem]

Paradoxic effect, I believe!

Nurse Isabelle, I've heard of the paradox effect mainly having to do with benzodiazepines -- is this medical phenomenon (my words, because that's how it seems to me!) more common with benzodiazepines, or is it because they are so widely prescribed?

 

[MissJames]

According to toxicology, MJ was not abusing drugs. The only drugs in his blood and urine was sleep medicines.

I know,but the use of propofol and the prescriptions is concerning .The staffers admitted he sometimes had slurred speech after leaving another Dr.s office and he saw him often.
Michael had a history of drug abuse.
The propofol wasn't for a procedure ,so by definition ,that's an abuse of a drug,IMO.

ETA: propofol is not a sleep medication.

 

[Lqqkout]

I am wanted to date a few thoughts I had after todae any evidence

First, I do not see evidence that MJ was using drugs as an addict when he died. I really think he had control over his past addictions to pain meds. There were drugs found that had been there a long time and had not been consumed. They were not present in the toxicology reports.

I think he was truly struggling with not being able to sleep and found the only thing he could to get rest. While listeninb to the CM tape today something hit me. He spoke of allowing the use of his clinic in Vegas for another Dr. to administer propophol. He said something about the plastic surgeon only doing it if an actual procedure was performed. This could explain the vast amount of work done. He was so desperate for sleep that he just kept getting work done.

From many biographies I have read, severe insomnia seems to be a common theme among brilliant minds. It is too bad that he chose this route to find sleep instead of going to a sleep clinic for help.

I honestly feel like he was just trying to sleep. CM should have sought help from experts but it seems like he was too arrogant to admit he was not capable of treating MJ.

I so agree with you. When I heard that the cosmetologist had to schedule a cosmetic procedure in order to bill. I wanted to throw up. Everyone was using MJ for financial gain and now we have lost probably the most talented entertainer of our lifetime. I feel I was privileged to have experienced this entertainer in m lifetime.