Conrad Murray trial -Day nineteen.

[katydid23]

It does worry me that the DT is trying to set up the reasonable doubt by putting up a scenario where MJ took some kind of overdose of something all by himself. I think it is clear that he had a history of drug abuse over the years. And just the fact that he wanted a full time personal physician, essentially just to prescribe him prescription meds in his home each night---that is problematic. That right there says that he felt 'entitled' to take anything that he had laying around for himself in the home. I think the prosecution is going to have to fight this scenario head on. They have to also make it clear that no matter what happened, Dr Murray was negligent and should be held accountable because he was not in the room to monitor his patient.

 

[tweezybird]

I agree, Katy, if there was any hint that MJ was a addict that's even more reason to carefully monitor the patient and protect the meds.

 

[Thundar]

It does worry me that the DT is trying to set up the reasonable doubt by putting up a scenario where MJ took some kind of overdose of something all by himself. I think it is clear that he had a history of drug abuse over the years. And just the fact that he wanted a full time personal physician, essentially just to prescribe him prescription meds in his home each night---that is problematic. That right there says that he felt 'entitled' to take anything that he had laying around for himself in the home. I think the prosecution is going to have to fight this scenario head on. They have to also make it clear that no matter what happened, Dr Murray was negligent and should be held accountable because he was not in the room to monitor his patient.

But then you have a doctor in the house who was already giving MJ propofol and other drugs. Why in the world would MJ have to get up out of the bed and take more, all he had to do was ask Murray. So you can look at that two ways. It just so happens that the drugs found at autopsy coincide with the drugs Murray admitted to giving MJ that night and early morning in his LE interview.

I can't argue the fact that MJ felt entitled to drugs most people would not dream of using in their bedrooms at home. But the other part of the equation is Murray's lack of record keeping and lying to EMTs and ER personal. It goes to Murray being negligent.

 

[Talina]

I think Dr. Drew has a lot of show content from today's testimony. I can't wait to hear what he has to say about Dr. Walden's testimony.

 

[Credence]

Interesting video of Dr Klein discussing facial fillers:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKsxWHGQZek"]Dr. Arnold Klein discusses facial fillers - YouTube[/ame]

 

[peace9274]

Thanks, peace. In your experience, do outside regulators ever come in and conduct an audit of the premises and the records?

Um, I think CM was not familiar with that regulation. I wonder how he secured them at his GF's place?? Ugly, ugly picture.

JCAHO says:
"We will make sure you meet all Joint Commission standards of Leadership,
Human Resource Management, Performance Measurement and Improvement,
and Information Management."

 

[Plumeria5]

Oh, no. The reporter in the courthouse on HLN called Walgren...
Walgreen!! :maddening:

 

[katydid23]

But then you have a doctor in the house who was already giving MJ propofol and other drugs. Why in the world would MJ have to get up out of the bed and take more, all he had to do was ask Murray. So you can look at that two ways. It just so happens that the drugs found at autopsy coincide with the drugs Murray admitted to giving MJ that night and early morning in his LE interview.

I can't argue the fact that MJ felt entitled to drugs most people would not dream of using in their bedrooms at home. But the other part of the equation is Murray's lack of record keeping and lying to EMTs and ER personal. It goes to Murray being negligent.

I think the DT is trying to say that Murray was NOT giving MJ everything he wanted. They are trying to say that he was attempting to wean Michael off of his drug habit, and that is why he gave him such a little amount of Propofol that time. So I think they are attempting to say that because Murray was trying to limit him, Michael snuck some more drugs on his own.

I agree that the lying to EMTS and Emergency Room doctors and the lack of records being kept are going to hurt Murray in the end. That is a big problem and has not been defended well. imoo

 

[peace9274]

It does worry me that the DT is trying to set up the reasonable doubt by putting up a scenario where MJ took some kind of overdose of something all by himself.

I think it is clear that he had a history of drug abuse over the years. And just the fact that he wanted a full time personal physician, essentially just to prescribe him prescription meds in his home each night---that is problematic. That right there says that he felt 'entitled' to take anything that he had laying around for himself in the home. .

RS&BBM

I kinda disagree, katydid. But I do see your point.

I see it as MJ knowing that he had an addiction to demerol in the past and his fear of becoming
addicted to drugs again frightened him so greatly that he needed to employ a doctor or a nurse
practitioner to fully supervise and administer his meds... and to watch him extensively afterwards
for any ill effects from the meds.

 

[Thundar]

I think the DT is trying to say that Murray was NOT giving MJ everything he wanted. They are trying to say that he was attempting to wean Michael off of his drug habit, and that is why he gave him such a little amount of Propofol that time. So I think they are attempting to say that because Murray was trying to limit him, Michael snuck some more drugs on his own.

I agree that the lying to EMTS and Emergency Room doctors and the lack of records being kept are going to hurt Murray in the end. That is a big problem and has not been defended well. imoo

I agree that is probably what defense is trying to do. I find a few problems with that though. Murray admitted in that interview that he did give MJ propofol because MJ "begged" for it. So Murray gave it to him. Defense can't have it both ways. Murray gave in and gave MJ propofol but yet he was weaning him off......

When you are weaning someone off of a drug you cut down the amount you don't replace it with another drug, unless of course the person is in a hospital setting in detox. Murray was replacing propofol, a non-addicting drug with Lorazapam and several other addicting substances. In what world would that make sense?

Murray had no monitoring equipment to speak of in that room.

Murray was the doctor, MJ was the patient. A doctor does what is best for the patient, not what the patient tells him to do. That would be employee/employer relationship instead of Dr/patient.

I hope the jury sees all of this in the big picture and does not get confused by defense.

 

[katydid23]

RS&BBM

I kinda disagree, katydid. But I do see your point.

I see it as MJ knowing that he had an addiction to demerol in the past and his fear of becoming
addicted to drugs again frightened him so greatly that he needed to employ a doctor or a nurse
practitioner to fully supervise and administer his meds... and to watch him extensively afterwards
for any ill effects from the meds.

I can see that side of this situation. But if so,then why wouldn't MJ have discussed this demerol problem with Murray. According to Murray, MJ never told him about his shots of demerol at Kleins, but he surmised it from other people and from overhearing MJ's phone conversations. If you werte going to hire a doctor to help keep you safe from ill effects of meds because of previous addictions, wouldn't you share that info with the doctor that you were hiring?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have seen a couple in another case and the THs described the jury as sitting back and not taking notes the same way. I hope that is not a bad omen.

Jean said they stopped taking notes when Walgren pointed out all the things wrong on the graph.

When a jury thinks things are underhanded and untrustworthy they will tune out that witness altogether.

And that is the second time the DT has been caught in errors.

IMO

 

[peace9274]

I can see that side of this situation. But if so,then why wouldn't MJ have discussed this demerol problem with Murray. According to Murray, MJ never told him about his shots of demerol at Kleins, but he surmised it from other people and from overhearing MJ's phone conversations. If you werte going to hire a doctor to help keep you safe from ill effects of meds because of previous addictions, wouldn't you share that info with the doctor that you were hiring?

You're right. But how do we know that MJ did NOT tell CM?

 

[Thundar]

You're right. But how do we know that MJ did NOT tell CM?

I was thinking this same thing. All we have to go on is Murray's word, sort of. And what the defense has insinuated through questions.

 

[tweezybird]

Are they back yet? I'm watching HLN and it's just info on Baby Lisa

 

[ges79]

Are they back yet? I'm watching HLN and it's just info on Baby Lisa

They are in recess an extra half hour--until 2 pm.

 

[peace9274]

Are they back yet? I'm watching HLN and it's just info on Baby Lisa

They will return from lunch break at 2:00 CA time.

Longer break today due to Judge wanting to have some discussions with the attys.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree that is probably what defense is trying to do. I find a few problems with that though. Murray admitted in that interview that he did give MJ propofol because MJ "begged" for it. So Murray gave it to him. Defense can't have it both ways. Murray gave in and gave MJ propofol but yet he was weaning him off......

When you are weaning someone off of a drug you cut down the amount you don't replace it with another drug, unless of course the person is in a hospital setting in detox. Murray was replacing propofol, a non-addicting drug with Lorazapam and several other addicting substances. In what world would that make sense?

Murray had no monitoring equipment to speak of in that room.

Murray was the doctor, MJ was the patient. A doctor does what is best for the patient, not what the patient tells him to do. That would be employee/employer relationship instead of Dr/patient.

I hope the jury sees all of this in the big picture and does not get confused by defense.

There is no way in the world MJ could have been withdrawing from Demerol. He last saw Klein on June -16 or 19th (?). There is no way he could have given fantastic performances two nights in a row. Anyone watching MJ in This is It can see this man was on top of his game.

Imo, if he was having an adverse affects around June 20th it was from the propofol and what CM was giving him.

MJ was seeing no other doctors when he was seeing Dr. Klein..except Murray.

Dr. Waldman did say that the recommended dosage for Demerol was no more than 600-650 mg in one day. So Klein was well within those guidelines and that is why DK has never been charged with any wrongdoing.

The Demerol is another red herring.......just like the drinking of propofol or taking 8 lorazepams.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It was also mentioned that he had stuff done to his sweat glands under his armpits and in his groin. Ouch

That had to hurt but he said he was known to sweat so much during rehearsals and shows that he easily lost 5-6 pounds from the extreme exertion.

IMO

 

[peace9274]

Are they back yet? I'm watching HLN and it's just info on Baby Lisa

Tweezybird, are you watching the trial on HLN or on one of the several links to live stream screens on the very first page of this thread?

TMZ is my favorite. They show the trial without commercial interruptions.