Conrad Murray trial -Day sixteen.

[oceanblueeyes]

This witness treated MJ's sleep disorder before MJ hired Conrad Murray.
She gave MJ various natural sleeping aids through an IV in a vein in his hand. gave between 150-250 mg.
MJ's veins were very small and squiggly and she had no problems giving MJ injections.
MJ did not experience pain when she was giving him needles.
Witness spent many evenings with Michael in April and she came whenever he needed her and they scheduled regular appointments.
One time MJ grew impatient and told her he didn't have time for all the things she wanted him to do.
MJ asked her to stay and observe his sleeping pattern.
She watched MJ sleep 5 hours.

Court adjourned before witness clarified with Chernoff a day in April 2009 when MJ mentioned medication.

Witness will be back Tuesday morning. Court has legal matters to take care of so court will begin at 9 am PDT. President Obama is in town.

Nurse Lee also said she never had any trouble with any of MJs veins. They were extremely small so she used a fine needle.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

What is their purpose in bringing her to the stand? If I remember correctly, she has been very hard on Murray and has publicly criticized him for giving MJ propofol. She said she herself denied MJ that option.

Just wait until cross by Walgren or Brazil.:floorlaugh:

I remember her saying that MJ told her that he would be fine BECAUSE a doctor would be there MONITORING HIM.

 

[katydid23]

I think MJ got caught up in the excitement concerning Blanket. He had a good grip on him and imo it was a foolish mistake just like Steve Irwn who was a wonderful father made when he had everyone aghast when holding his young son close to a crocodile. He had a firm grip too on his baby but realized that he shouldn't have done it and to an outsider it looked reckless.

Everyone that knew MJ personally and knew his children personally marveled at how well adjusted they were. That one thing has remained consistent throughout. He was an excellent father and raised amazing children.

Dr. M probably saw himself somewhat as a grandpa to these children. They knew MJ was a single father raising his children.

IMO

I am not saying he was not a wonderful and loving father. It seems that he was. But there were some red flags, imo. And I think it is rational that some might have had concerns. Even going with what we now know, that he had a private physician knock him out with a potentially deadly drug by IV every night, right in his home. That does not make him an excellent father, in some ways,imo. His addiction to prescription drugs is likely. Again, not a great thing for a single father to 3 young kids.

I have to think that some of his friends and doctors might have been concerned about the children, if they knew this.

 

[peace9274]

Just wait until cross by Walgren or Brazil.:floorlaugh:

I remember her saying that MJ told her that he would be fine BECAUSE a doctor would be there MONITORING HIM.

Nurse Lee said, and it's been shown on the various news programs several times,
that MJ asked her if she would get and administer propofol for him.

She said she told MJ that she would NOT do that and told him that if he took it,
he may NEVER wake up again.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am not saying he was not a wonderful and loving father. It seems that he was. But there were some red flags, imo. And I think it is rational that some might have had concerns. Even going with what we now know, that he had a private physician knock him out with a potentially deadly drug by IV every night, right in his home. That does not make him an excellent father, in some ways,imo. His addiction to prescription drugs is likely. Again, not a great thing for a single father to 3 young kids.

I have to think that some of his friends and doctors might have been concerned about the children, if they knew this.

I do understand what you mean but I do not think they worried about his children.

He was upstairs at night while getting treatment. His children would have been sleeping and I bet he did not let them see him until he was fully awake and rested.

Chef Kai said Michael came down from the second floor in the mornings fully dressed so imo they did not even know what Murray was doing.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Nurse Lee said, and it's been shown on the various news programs several times,
that MJ asked her if she would get and administer propofol for him.

She said she told MJ that she would NOT do that and told him that if he took it,
he may NEVER wake up again.

I know so we are going to hear from another medical professional that knew how to say 'no.'

 

[katydid23]

I do understand what you mean but I do not think they worried about his children.

He was upstairs at night while getting treatment. His children would have been sleeping and I bet he did not let them see him until he was fully awake and rested.

Chef Kai said Michael came down from the second floor in the mornings fully dressed so imo they did not even know what Murray was doing.

IMO

But I think the children's rooms were upstairs as well. And there were reports that they helped carry the oxygen tanks upstairs. So they knew about some of the medical equipment. And they knew there was a doctor there every night with their dad in his room apparently. So what did they think the doctor was doing there every night? Sorry, but kids KNOW when their parents have issues with drugs. They just do, even if it is something the parent tries to cover up or hide.

Just because daddy comes down to breakfast fully dressed on some mornings, it does not mean they did not know what was happening in the middle of the night.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

But I think the children's rooms were upstairs as well. And there were reports that they helped carry the oxygen tanks upstairs. So they knew about some of the medical equipment. And they knew there was a doctor there every night with their dad in his room apparently. So what did they think the doctor was doing there every night? Sorry, but kids KNOW when their parents have issues with drugs. They just do, even if it is something the parent tries to cover up or hide.

Just because daddy comes down to breakfast fully dressed on some mornings, it does not mean they did not know what was happening in the middle of the night.

But most parents who have issues with drugs are getting high.....not trying to get a restful night sleep.

Since the issues that I have seen with MJ were insomnia issues they probably knew Dr. Murray was helping him to get some sleep at night. They wouldn't be aware of any of the details imo. I didn't hear they carried any tanks up but did carry some down to the guard trailer. The oxygen wouldn't be that alarming and they could have just thought it helped him breathe better while he was sleeping.

I really think he was very discreet. When he was around his children they were laughing, talking, dancing, singing, and telling stories or talking about their favorite books.

IMO

 

[Melanie]

I was a bit uncomfortable when Nurse Lee said MJ was given an IV while she sat with him. I find IV's painful and can't sleep with them -- even with the most perfect/no problem insertion. I've been hospitalized many times, and I can't do it - I just can't sleep with that needle in my hand. I absolutely understand how MJ would wake up after 5 hours (I would be blessed to get as much).

IMHO, I think the jury would understand a sleep problem if MJ was getting IV's on a continued basis. They would, IMHO, interrup the normal sleep pattern. I don't understand how anyone could go through that process without sleep problems.

I've had some neuropathy issues, and the doc had no problem prescribing me Ambien. How Nurse Lee would give him sleepy time tea with an IV in his hand is beyond me. I, too, would prolly be asking for some "milk".

Just based on my experiences - thanks.

MOO

Mel

 

[borndem]

Unbelievable!

Jane V-M is having Jose Baez on her show this afternoon and he will give
his opinions of the CM Trial. How exciting! GRRRRR

I'm glad she warned me. I can definitely be doing something else at that time.

Oh gawd -- his head is gonna get so big, it will need its own suit. Ugh.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Oh gawd -- his head is gonna get so big, it will need its own suit. Ugh.

You mean his head is going to be as big as JVMs head?:floorlaugh:

 

[borndem]

Why would he call CM in the first place to come give him the meds?

If MJ were an active drug addict/abuser, he just would've given himself
the meds and not wait for the doctor to come.

He trusted CM and had confidence that CM would administer & supervise the meds.
He was going to be paying CM the big bucks to do so.

But apparently the good doctor hasn't gotten paid for all his longs nights just yet. A pity, that. Now to whom will CM send the bill? Ain't nobody happy here, I guess.

 

[katydid23]

But most parents who have issues with drugs are getting high.....not trying to get a restful night sleep.

Since the issues that I have seen with MJ were insomnia issues they probably knew Dr. Murray was helping him to get some sleep at night. They wouldn't be aware of any of the details imo. I didn't hear they carried any tanks up but did carry some down to the guard trailer. The oxygen wouldn't be that alarming and they could have just thought it helped him breathe better while he was sleeping.

I really think he was very discreet. When he was around his children they were laughing, talking, dancing, singing, and telling stories or talking about their favorite books.

IMO

I think that his problems with insomnia were possibly affected by his drug problems in the first place. I grew up in Southern California and have many friends in the music business, several who went on various tours with MJ as dancers or backup singers. It was well known that at one time, back in the day, BEFORE he had kids, he did a lot of drugs and he drank heavily. He did go to rehab and he cleaned up his act. However I am not going to assume that the only drugs he did anymore were for insomnia. I have known too many drug addicts who had insomnia BECAUSE they got high with drugs that kept them awake. For example, coming off of demerol reportedly gives one insomnia as a side effect. And doing certain drugs that would make him better able to sing and dance all day would give him insomnia. They do not have to be taken even during the time that you are suffering from insomnia either/ Just having a history of doing them at some point can throw off your sleep cycle enough to affect you for many months later. And the nurse today said he drank red bulls. That is not helpful if he wants to sleep at night.

I LOVE Michael but I am not going to give him a pass on everything he did. As guilty as Murray is, for setting up that IV and offering that deadly concoction, I have to blame Michael too. He knew better. He trusted the wrong doctor obviously. But Michael should have made sure there were full oxygen tanks and the proper emergency equipment available to him. he was too trusting, imo. That does not let Murray off the hook. I think he should be charged with an even higher crime than what he is on trial for.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think that his problems with insomnia were possibly affected by his drug problems in the first place. I grew up in Southern California and have many friends in the music business, several who went on various tours with MJ as dancers or backup singers. It was well known that at one time, back in the day, BEFORE he had kids, he did a lot of drugs and he drank heavily. He did go to rehab and he cleaned up his act. However I am not going to assume that the only drugs he did anymore were for insomnia. I have known too many drug addicts who had insomnia BECAUSE they got high with drugs that kept them awake. For example, coming off of demerol reportedly gives one insomnia as a side effect. And doing certain drugs that would make him better able to sing and dance all day would give him insomnia. They do not have to be taken even during the time that you are suffering from insomnia either/ Just having a history of doing them at some point can throw off your sleep cycle enough to affect you for many months later. And the nurse today said he drank red bulls. That is not helpful if he wants to sleep at night.

I LOVE Michael but I am not going to give him a pass on everything he did. As guilty as Murray is, for setting up that IV and offering that deadly concoction, I have to blame Michael too. He knew better. He trusted the wrong doctor obviously. But Michael should have made sure there were full oxygen tanks and the proper emergency equipment available to him. he was too trusting, imo. That does not let Murray off the hook. I think he should be charged with an even higher crime than what he is on trial for.

I agree I really think MJ trusted Murray. Why in the world would he think Murray wouldnt have a full oxygen tank? Imo, MJ thought without a shadow of a doubt that Murray would take good care of him. I think Murray had a lot to do with that belief and came across is the "big doctor man" who could do it with no problem.

I don't know Katy. All I can go by is what was found at the time of autopsy and MJ had no inkling he was going to die so he couldn't flush his system out before CM killed him.

I am sure there were underlying causes for the insomnia but no matter what it did exist and the meds he was given weren't to get high. If he stopped drinking the Red Bull way back in February like NL said then that wouldn't have been a cause for it later on, imo.

I think the reason why he had insomnia was because when he was going on tour he had so much running through his brain constantly that he couldn't let his brain rest long enough to sleep. I have heard so many people say that suffer from terrible insomnia that they cannot get their mind to rest but have a thousand thoughts bombarding them at one time instead.

He wasnt just the entertainer on these tours. He was the song writer, choreographer, director at times, singer and dancer. He even designed the tickets for the tour. That is a lot going on in one man's mind.

IMO

 

[katydid23]

That is true that he was under lot of creative pressure. And he put a lot of pressure upon himself to live up to the world's huge expectations of him. So that would keep him up at night for sure. I just hope Murray does not walk away with no jail time. That would be really unfair, imo.

 

[Crosby87]

As much as people loved Michael, there was still reason to have concerns for his children. There was the balcony incident, which was scary, imo. And the many pictures of his kids wearing masks. Also a question about their stability as he traveled around the world, but had not really settled anywhere. So imo, even those who had great love for Michael, might have had concerns about how the children were doing with his eccentric lifestyle. Looking back, it appears as though things were fine. They seem very well balanced and healthy.

But if this doctor had been on tour with Michael then I would imagine he had some concerns. imoo

When Deborah Rowe agreed to be interviewed in 2008, she said "the veils were my idea, not Michael's. I had kidnap threats when they were babies. I did not want them to be recognized. I'm not happy they've been photographed without the veils."

By the Nineties, Rowe was recovering from a break-up with a boyfriend and working as a nurse for Michael Jackson's dermatologist, Dr Arnold Klein. She befriended Jackson and - like a schoolgirl with a crush - offered to bear him children when he spoke about his longing to be a father.

Incredibly, some kind of agreement was struck, and in early 1996 she was artificially inseminated, possibly through IVF, though she refuses to talk about the details. Whether it was with Jackson's sperm or an anonymous donor's - more likely given the light-coloured skin of the children she produced - Rowe is not saying.

Incredibly, it is not the memory of the bloodied newborn being torn from her arms which moves Rowe to tears now - but the sudden admission that she couldn't bear Jackson any more children.

She bursts into tears and, sobbing loudly, says: "I had so many problems when I was pregnant with Paris. After that I couldn't have any more children. Michael was upset about that, he couldn't understand it. He wanted more babies."

Michael Jackson went on to 'sire' a third child - Prince Michael II, known as Blanket - by an unnamed surrogate.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ksons-children-Debbie-Rowe.html#ixzz1bVf7FxDg

 

[peace9274]

I think that his problems with insomnia were possibly affected by his drug problems in the first place. I grew up in Southern California and have many friends in the music business, several who went on various tours with MJ as dancers or backup singers. It was well known that at one time, back in the day, BEFORE he had kids, he did a lot of drugs and he drank heavily. He did go to rehab and he cleaned up his act. However I am not going to assume that the only drugs he did anymore were for insomnia. I have known too many drug addicts who had insomnia BECAUSE they got high with drugs that kept them awake. For example, coming off of demerol reportedly gives one insomnia as a side effect. And doing certain drugs that would make him better able to sing and dance all day would give him insomnia. They do not have to be taken even during the time that you are suffering from insomnia either/ Just having a history of doing them at some point can throw off your sleep cycle enough to affect you for many months later. And the nurse today said he drank red bulls. That is not helpful if he wants to sleep at night.

I LOVE Michael but I am not going to give him a pass on everything he did. As guilty as Murray is, for setting up that IV and offering that deadly concoction, I have to blame Michael too. He knew better. He trusted the wrong doctor obviously. But Michael should have made sure there were full oxygen tanks and the proper emergency equipment available to him. he was too trusting, imo. That does not let Murray off the hook. I think he should be charged with an even higher crime than what he is on trial for.

I worked 8 yrs on a detox/rehab unit, (and then floated many times to that unit
over the next 20 yrs), so I'm aware that everything you're saying is true about
insomnia being a side effect of drug abuse/addiction.

But, there were no signs, symptoms, or evidence on the AR that indicated MJ was
abusing drugs prior to nor at the time of his death.

According to a few people at rehearsal, MJ WAS in fact acting differently a week
or so prior to his death... or maybe it was the week of.

MJ's behavior caused enough concern that the others contacted CM
and requested that tests should be done on MJ due to MJ's odd behavior.

But, as we know, CM refused to do so, saying that MJ was fine, that he was the doctor blah blah blah.

Any strange behavior that MJ was exhibiting to others, IMO, to cause concern,
was from the meds that CM had been giving MJ at that time.

If MJ were truly a drug addict and was actively abusing drugs,
I do not think that he would want a doctor coming every night
to supervise & administer his medications.

Physically, MJ was in very good health, especially for a 50 yr old man.
And all of his vital organs were normal, showing no signs of drug abuse.

I have seen people get wired on Red Bull and then can't sleep at night.
After hearing Nurse Lee's testimony today, it seems the Red Bull played
a big part in MJ's insomnia, in the past.

ETA: I just read Oceanblueeyes' opinion re MJ's insomnia and what all was on his mind, etc.

It brought back memories of just before I retired. I worked a lot of double shifts (days/eves)
and then had to rush home, try to relax and fall asleep, so that I'd be awake and alert in the morning to work again.

There were so many nights that I was so worried about it, that I'd be wide awake, tossing & turning & only slept 2-3 hrs!

To this day, due to working many night shifts... I never ever sleep more than 4 hours at a time.
I don't have to be wide awake nor alert for anything now... but I do remember it being soooo frustrating when I was working.

(Sorry if that didn't make sense... I was watching Nancy G dance at the same time I was writing.)

 

[katydid23]

I worked 8 yrs on a detox/rehab unit, (and then floated many times to that unit
over the next 20 yrs), so I'm aware that everything you're saying is true about
insomnia being a side effect of drug abuse/addiction.

But, there were no signs, symptoms, or evidence on the AR that indicated MJ was
abusing drugs prior to nor at the time of his death.

According to a few people at rehearsal, MJ WAS in fact acting differently a week
or so prior to his death... or maybe it was the week of.

MJ's behavior caused enough concern that the others contacted CM
and requested that tests should be done on MJ due to MJ's odd behavior.

But, as we know, CM refused to do so, saying that MJ was fine, that he was the doctor blah blah blah.

Any strange behavior that MJ was exhibiting to others, IMO, to cause concern,
was from the meds that CM had been giving MJ at that time.

If MJ were truly a drug addict and was actively abusing drugs,
I do not think that he would want a doctor coming every night
to supervise & administer his medications.

Physically, MJ was in very good health, especially for a 50 yr old man.
And all of his vital organs were normal, showing no signs of drug abuse.

I have seen people get wired on Red Bull and then can't sleep at night.
After hearing Nurse Lee's testimony today, it seems the Red Bull played a big part in MJ's insomnia.

I agree that there was no evidence in his AR that there were any drugs in his system besides what were given by Murray that night.

But he had a pretty big tolerance to drugs it seems. How many people do you know that could take 8 Larazrepam and not even fall asleep? Many would be unconscious in fact. But he was not that affected by them.

And the recorded audios with Michael slurring so badly shows that he was getting high on something during that time. Maybe it was just medically warranted, but it surprises me that he would be allowed to leave that office and go to meetings in that state. Weird, imo.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That is true that he was under lot of creative pressure. And he put a lot of pressure upon himself to live up to the world's huge expectations of him. So that would keep him up at night for sure. I just hope Murray does not walk away with no jail time. That would be really unfair, imo.

Yes it would, since Michael has paid the ultimate price for the sins of his doctor.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree that there was no evidence in his AR that there were any drugs in his system besides what were given by Murray that night.

But he had a pretty big tolerance to drugs it seems. How many people do you know that could take 8 Larazrepam and not even fall asleep? Many would be unconscious in fact. But he was not that affected by them.

And the recorded audios with Michael slurring so badly shows that he was getting high on something during that time. Maybe it was just medically warranted, but it surprises me that he would be allowed to leave that office and go to meetings in that state. Weird, imo.

I really don't believe he took 8 lorazepam pills, Katy. Imo that is a lie concocted by Murray and the DT.

Dr. Shafer discounted this and I know the PT is going to bring in the correct testing results for the actual lorazepam found and the metabolite amount in their rebuttal case.

Even EC admitted at a side bar that they had not been informed by their expert that their test results were wrong.

The DTs lab combined two numbers together totally skewing the test results.

No way do I believe MJ got up out of that bed around 7 in the morning and went all the way down the hall to his bedroom and then to his bathroom and took the pills and came back as if he had never moved.

I am not sure slurring ones words is a sign of getting high. Under the influence of something Murray gave him like a strong IV sedative perhaps. In the background noise of that tape you could hear the oxygen tank being used.

IMO