Conrad Murray trial -Day thriteen.

[CarolinaMoon]

He transfixed me all afternoon. KTLA was commenting that there should have been many objections from the defense. It was also opined that perhaps the defense has some negative information to bring up at cross.

Cross should be VERY interesting!

 

[Credence]

This doctor was the final nail in CM's coffin. Not sure what the defense can do with his testimony. His last comments were very passionate also.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

What a way to end the state's case.:woohoo:

Dr. Shafer kicked CMs butt at the end.

And his is right Conrad Murray put himself first!

MONEY and GREED and the need to protect what he had done was what mattered to CM.

IMO

 

[azwriter]

I am bringing my post reply over from the last thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azwriter
kaRn, yours is a post I can agree with. MJ wanted the "milk." And I too believed he shopped till he found a doctor who would and could legally buy and stockpile the sleep drugs MJ wanted and was determined to have.

What father goes home at night and spends the night in a room no one is allowed to enter with a doctor there all night? This is very strange.

I believe Dr. Murry didn't keep records because all of this was to be MJ's secret. MJ didn't want records kept of what drugs he was given or the entire routine of him being put under in order to sleep. He played a fools game with a drug that should only be administered in a hospital setting with equipment to cover any emergency while he was under.

Certainly the doctor was wrong to leave the room but he also was wrong in allow himself to be hired for this weird procedure done behind closed doors in a person's private home.

I am sorry MJ died. I am a fan but I have to say in this situation of doctor/patient relationship, MJ wasn't the patient - he was the doctor's boss. It's pitiful for all concerned. JMO

I imagine it is like a lot of parents who may make their bedroom off limits at times to their children while they are in there 'asleep' and I am sure the children thought he was sleeping. Why would they be up in the middle of the night anyway? He didn't even get home until after 1:00 am in the morning. They knew their father was rehearsing for his comeback tour.

I am not sure MJ wanted the 'milk' as in craved because Propofol is not addictive since it leaves the blood stream within a few short minutes but he did feel this was the only med that worked for him and really if he thought he had rested then that is what he felt. He told CM that nothing else worked.

They are beginning to do studies now where Propofol is being used as a sleep aide for people who suffer from terrible insomnia. I suppose it is no different than someone else who has insomnia and thinks only one drug works for them.

I don't believe MJ was the boss at all. He had always trusted doctors. Some he shouldn't have, imo but he did.

I think he knew the risks. He knew he had to have a licensed doctor administer this drug. That is why I think the theory of injecting it himself is a cockamamie lie CM made up in his faux statement. If so then after he got Murray to buy the drugs he would no longer need him and could just do it himself. That DT theory doesn't make sense but then the others don't either.

He also knew a doctor would have to monitor him. He told Nurse Lee he would be fine BECAUSE a doctor would be there monitoring him. What he could not foresee though was a doctor who was more interested in talking on the phone that day and didn't have his mind on monitoring him at all. So I do think MJ took necessary precautions or he would have just gotten a layperson to administer it to him after CM supplied it and frankly knowing how Murray deviated so grossly from the standard of care that day he may have been better off. A layperson sure couldn't have done any worse.

From what I have seen of Murray thus far I think he came across to MJ as someone who could handle everything and really there was nothing in his background that said he couldn't. He had been a doctor for almost 20 years and had three different practices. I have no doubt he came across as authoritative and full of himself. After all he wanted 5 million to start with but still was going to be paid 150K a month.

MJ was aware of what Murray had to do and so was Murray. Murray just didnt give a darn about his patient the morning he killed MJ.


IMO

Just wanted to add, that if, as you claim, MJ was aware of what needed to be done by Dr. Murray, he would have known there needed to be more medical monitering done than just having a doctor present in the room when he was under an anesthetic drug.

I don't believe Michael was fully aware of the risks he was taking using the drug in his bedroom without proper medical assistance, record keeping and stand-by methods, personnel, and machines in case something went wrong. And, from the looks of things, Murray didn't know either. Or did know and was willing to cut corners in order to keep his high paying position within MJ world.

If MJ absolutely knew and insisted that this was the ONLY medication that allowed him to sleep, why didn't he go to a hospital every evening and have it administered under safer circumstances? Because he knew no such situation would be accomidated within a medical facility.

While I agree Dr. Murray was at fault for MJ's death, I can't believe he didn't give a darn about MJ. After all, once MJ died, the pay checks would stop too. If money was the Doctor's motivation, he would give a darn that his patient stay alive in order keep those payments coming.

jmo

 

[peace9274]

I had to leave at 6:45 EST and just returned to see what all I missed.
Not much I guess. Did they say whether court will be in session tomorrow?

TIA

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am bringing my post reply over from the last thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azwriter

Just wanted to add, that if, as you claim, MJ was aware of what needed to be done by Dr. Murray, he would have known there needed to be more medical monitoring done than just having a doctor present in the room when he was under an anesthetic drug.

I don't believe Michael was fully aware of the risks he was taking using the drug in his bedroom without proper medical assistance, record keeping and stand-by methods, personnel, and machines in case something went wrong. And, from the looks of things, Murray didn't know either. Or did know and was willing to cut corners in order to keep his high paying position within MJ world.

If MJ absolutely knew and insisted that this was the ONLY medication that allowed him to sleep, why didn't he go to a hospital every evening and have it administered under safer circumstances? Because he knew no such situation would be accommodated within a medical facility.

While I agree Dr. Murray was at fault for MJ's death, I can't believe he didn't give a darn about MJ. After all, once MJ died, the pay checks would stop too. If money was the Doctor's motivation, he would give a darn that his patient stay alive in order keep those payments coming.

jmo

Wanting the checks to keep rolling in isn't really caring about a patient's wellbeing. It is putting greed over the best interest of a patient. It is obvious to me he didn't care about MJ that day or he would have never left him alone at the most critical time still under sedation in the first place. He played fast and loose and MJ paid the ultimate price for CMs gross deviations from the standard of care. Of course he didn't want his cash cow dead but he did nothing to protect that interest either or his patient's life. His mind was totally distracted on other 'things':innocent: unknowing to MJ who was under sedation.

With Dr. Shafer's testimony today we learned MJ actually could have been saved if CM had just tilted his head back and made sure his tongue wasnt obstructing his airway. He did have an abu-bag in the bedroom that would force air in the lungs but he failed to even use it and it was right there. If he had jumped into action immediately and done those things and called for help immediately MJ would be alive today.

The problem Murray did have though is MJ was long dead before Murray even came back in the room to realize it, imo. That was why MJ was cool to the touch and his eyes fixed, dilated and dry and the EMTs arrived in 4 minutes after being called.

So MJ could have been saved. Of course Murray would have to be monitoring him at the time he stopped breathing and that didn't happen even though he lied to the ER doctor and said he witnessed the arrest.

One of the strangest thing to me is Murray states in his statement that MJ told him nothing else worked but the propofol but yet in the next breath CM says MJ was willing to try all these other meds to help him sleep...even meditate. That just does not make sense.

I think the reason why Murray didnt keep medical records were done in order to protect himself.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I had to leave at 6:45 EST and just returned to see what all I missed.
Not much I guess. Did they say whether court will be in session tomorrow?

TIA

Yes, they will be back at 8:45 in the morning.

I think the state is through with their direct and it will be cross examination tomorrow.

imo

 

[borndem]

Whew, what a day for the State!

Whew, what a day for CM and his defenders! I hope they have plenty of midnight oil.

Two phrases by the amazing, down-to-earth, respectful and eloquent Dr. Shafer keep rolling in my mind: "by someone who knows what he's doing" and "I think Dr Murray was clueless," those are probably not perfectly exact quotes, but the bolded words certainly were accurate words. He wasn't being spiteful or mean -- he was just putting it in plain language.

Ooh, what sensible and damning testimony -- and seems to me, every juror was probably able to follow what he said even though he was walking all of us through pretty technical medical terminology. Oh yes, all of the State's doctors were very, very good, but they did save the best for last.

And once more, I agree with you, oceanblueeyes, that MJ was good & dead when CM returned to check on him & he knew that he was beyond help. Now to clean up and blame it on the only other witness, and he cannot testify. And CM may still be wondering what it was that actually killed his patient -- which drug and how and why?? In spite of the obvious truth spoken in the courtroom today.

So all that was left was to put it in CYA gear and make things sound as good as possible WRT his own actions. Dead men tell no tales....

And we lost a brother, a son, a father, an uncle, a friend, and a dedicated and a bit eccentric and huge talent and entertainer. So sad and PREVENTABLE. This crime must be punished.

 

[shgrbkr]

Murray may have misled MJ as to what monitoring really meant. We don't know. From what I have learned about Conrad Murray suggests that he may have been willing to misrepresent what sort of monitoring would be necessary just so he could keep his "job" with MJ. Whatever amount of "rubbing elbows" CM wanted to do does not, under any circumstance alleviate him from acting responsibly and professionally. I find it appalling that anyone would insinuate that MJ was in part responsible. It may very well be the case that MJ would have doctor shopped until he found someone willing to take risks, but it remains ANY and ALL physicians' professional and moral responsibility to, as the witness stated today, "Put the patient first," and WE as consumers, should expect 100% of physicians to abide by that. We do not know what sort of education MJ had regarding the propofol infusion. All he could possibly know from experience is that it makes him go to sleep and up until his death, he always woke up from it. This speaks to the lack of informed consent. Also to suggest that MJ was giving himself propofol is ridiculous. People go out pretty darn quick once they get it and I don't believe MJ would have been able to stay awake that long.

HAD MJ been properly monitored, even in the home, the signs indicating that he was in trouble would have been apparent long before he died and steps could have been taken to save him. Instead, not being monitored by an EKG, SpO2, Resp rate, and BP, it was too late. I think CM should have been charged with 2nd degree murder as it was not intentional. JMO though folks.

 

[azwriter]

Whew, what a day for the State!

Whew, what a day for CM and his defenders! I hope they have plenty of midnight oil.

Two phrases by the amazing, down-to-earth, respectful and eloquent Dr. Shafer keep rolling in my mind: "by someone who knows what he's doing" and "I think Dr Murray was clueless," those are probably not perfectly exact quotes, but the bolded words certainly were accurate words. He wasn't being spiteful or mean -- he was just putting it in plain language.

Ooh, what sensible and damning testimony -- and seems to me, every juror was probably able to follow what he said even though he was walking all of us through pretty technical medical terminology. Oh yes, all of the State's doctors were very, very good, but they did save the best for last.

And once more, I agree with you, oceanblueeyes, that MJ was good & dead when CM returned to check on him & he knew that he was beyond help. Now to clean up and blame it on the only other witness, and he cannot testify. And CM may still be wondering what it was that actually killed his patient -- which drug and how and why?? In spite of the obvious truth spoken in the courtroom today.

So all that was left was to put it in CYA gear and make things sound as good as possible WRT his own actions. Dead men tell no tales....

And we lost a brother, a son, a father, an uncle, a friend, and a dedicated and a bit eccentric and huge talent and entertainer. So sad and PREVENTABLE. This crime must be punished.

I'm in that same camp too that MJ was dead when the doctor returned to the bedroom/treatment room. And, Murray was no doubt in an extreme panic.

Just think it was probably just as Dr. Shafer explained in his testimony today that most patients being put under, even in a strict medical setting stop breathing when first put under. But, according to him that condition is noticed immediately through the equipment and the doctor being focused on the patient. The simple step as a chin lift he demonstrated to get the tongue out the way could have saved MJ if Murray had been at his side the entire time. And none of us would have been the wiser. And MJ would be performing now.

Dr. Shafer's testimony and the video was an excellent lesson being shown in court today. I would guess Murray was sitting there thinking "If only...."

I find that Michael's untimely death is even sadder now after hearing Dr. Shafer's explaination today.
It's just a shame.

just my O

 

[azwriter]

Snipped for space by me.

I think the reason why Murray didnt keep medical records were done in order to protect himself.
IMO

However, not keeping records didn't protect the doctor, it only made him more suspect.
jmO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

However, not keeping records didn't protect the doctor, it only made him more suspect.
jmO

Morning AZ.

Now that is certainly true but just like so many others he never thought it would be uncovered what he was actually doing.

When he suddenly let his patient die then what he did and did not do became exposed.

 

[Talina]

Good morning all...everyone have their tylenol ready for Flanagan's cross examination of Dr. Shafer?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Whew, what a day for the State!

Whew, what a day for CM and his defenders! I hope they have plenty of midnight oil.

Two phrases by the amazing, down-to-earth, respectful and eloquent Dr. Shafer keep rolling in my mind: "by someone who knows what he's doing" and "I think Dr Murray was clueless," those are probably not perfectly exact quotes, but the bolded words certainly were accurate words. He wasn't being spiteful or mean -- he was just putting it in plain language.

Ooh, what sensible and damning testimony -- and seems to me, every juror was probably able to follow what he said even though he was walking all of us through pretty technical medical terminology. Oh yes, all of the State's doctors were very, very good, but they did save the best for last.

And once more, I agree with you, oceanblueeyes, that MJ was good & dead when CM returned to check on him & he knew that he was beyond help. Now to clean up and blame it on the only other witness, and he cannot testify. And CM may still be wondering what it was that actually killed his patient -- which drug and how and why?? In spite of the obvious truth spoken in the courtroom today.

So all that was left was to put it in CYA gear and make things sound as good as possible WRT his own actions. Dead men tell no tales....

And we lost a brother, a son, a father, an uncle, a friend, and a dedicated and a bit eccentric and huge talent and entertainer. So sad and PREVENTABLE. This crime must be punished.

Morning Borndem!:seeya:

I think most of us had envisioned that there was no meds that could have counteracted the propofol and MJ was bound to die. At least that was the way I understood it that there was no reversal agent.

But yesterday I learned that is not really true and all the doctor needs to do to offset the propofol is make sure oxygen is continuously pumped into the lungs and it brings the patient out from under it and stabilizes the patient. Dr. Shafer said propofol lowers the oxygen level so maintaining good air in the lungs is essential. With fully oxygenated lungs the patient will not go into respiratory arrest and that is really what happened to MJ and of course then cardiac arrest followed.

The thought that Murray had an abu-bag but didn't use it breaks my heart for MJ and his family. I didn't realize until yesterday how this death was so preventable.

If only Murray had monitored him closely and saw him in distress he could have immediately used the abu-bag. This is a case filled with "If only he had done"

I also believe Murray is undercharged for what he did. This is just not gross recklessness and neglect......it goes way beyond that into the realm of unbelievable and all done by one doctor.

Murray singlehandedly ripped so many hopes and dreams away. Not just for Michael but all those that love him and his fans who waited with such excited anticipation to see him perform again.

So I feel even sadder today to know all of this. It just shouldn't have happened. No doctor should be this careless, clueless and self centered. We all can lose when that happens although I want to convince myself there isn't another doctor in the world that would act as Murray has done.

I guess we are in store for a long cross examination today. I am sure Dr. Shafer is ready.

IMO

 

[borndem]

Murray may have misled MJ as to what monitoring really meant. We don't know. From what I have learned about Conrad Murray suggests that he may have been willing to misrepresent what sort of monitoring would be necessary just so he could keep his "job" with MJ. Whatever amount of "rubbing elbows" CM wanted to do does not, under any circumstance alleviate him from acting responsibly and professionally. I find it appalling that anyone would insinuate that MJ was in part responsible. It may very well be the case that MJ would have doctor shopped until he found someone willing to take risks, but it remains ANY and ALL physicians' professional and moral responsibility to, as the witness stated today, "Put the patient first," and WE as consumers, should expect 100% of physicians to abide by that. We do not know what sort of education MJ had regarding the propofol infusion. All he could possibly know from experience is that it makes him go to sleep and up until his death, he always woke up from it. This speaks to the lack of informed consent. Also to suggest that MJ was giving himself propofol is ridiculous. People go out pretty darn quick once they get it and I don't believe MJ would have been able to stay awake that long.

HAD MJ been properly monitored, even in the home, the signs indicating that he was in trouble would have been apparent long before he died and steps could have been taken to save him. Instead, not being monitored by an EKG, SpO2, Resp rate, and BP, it was too late. I think CM should have been charged with 2nd degree murder as it was not intentional. JMO though folks.

ITA, shgrbkr, and very well-said. 100%.



Let's put on our seatbelts for today's testimony!

I'm sure Dr. Shafer will be steady as a rock. And I think he will handle anything they throw at him. And <sigh> I think it will be Flanagan.

 

[TxLady2]

pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.

This trial is giving propofol a bad reputation, and that's sad because it is actually very safe, as long as it's administered by a trained professional in a surgical setting and with all the proper equipment to handle emergencies.
That's the whole point of this testimony... Dr. Murray broke all the rules of proper procedure and then abandoned Michael right after he gave it.
I heard JVM yesterday say that she wouldn't want to be given propofol from now on, and that was a very stupid thing to say, IMO. It's not the drug itself that is the problem, it's Dr. Murray and his blatant disregard for his patient's safety and well being.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Good morning all...everyone have their tylenol ready for Flanagan's cross examination of Dr. Shafer?

Morning Talina! I am taking Motrin.:floorlaugh:

Yesterday morning I went out to feed my cats and one got under my feet and I tried to get off of his foot quickly and lost my balance and down I went.:floorlaugh: Four of my ribs on the left hit a piece of lawn equipment and I am so sore I cant hardly move. What a sleepless night. :banghead: Btw/the cat is just fine. lol

So having to deal with that and listening to Flanagan on cross may be too much for me to take!:floorlaugh:

IMO

 

[Talina]

Morning Talina! I am taking Motrin.:floorlaugh:

Yesterday morning I went out to feed my cats and one got under my feet and I tried to get off of his foot quickly and lost my balance and down I went.:floorlaugh: Four of my ribs on the left hit a piece of lawn equipment and I am so sore I cant hardly move. What a sleepless night. :banghead: Btw/the cat is just fine. lol

So having to deal with that and listening to Flanagan on cross may be too much for me to take!:floorlaugh:

IMO

Oh my word. I hope it's not too bad and you recover quickly.

My cat always runs in front of me and stops to look to see if I am following him. (as if that is the only reason I got up to do something). He has almost tripped me so many times I have lost count.

My vet says "well he almost has you trained...he's still working on it". :floorlaugh:

 

[borndem]

Good morning all...everyone have their tylenol ready for Flanagan's cross examination of Dr. Shafer?

: hwow: ::noooo: : :raincloud: : :no: : hwow: : :anguish:

 

[TxLady2]

I'm getting the feeling that Dr. Murray thought he could get away with it, he never thought Michael would be in danger. After all, he had given it before and Michael always woke up, until that fateful day.
I do not believe Michael was unaware of the danger, but that's not the point. Surely Dr. Murray was aware and he should have refused it under those conditions. He played Russian roulette one too many times and lost.
Dr. Shafer was a very good witness, as were the other two doctors who testified last week. I don't think the defense team has a prayer of shaking this guy, they didn't with the other two either. Right now I think they know they've lost this case. Can't wait to see the cross, it's going to be interesting.
What saddens me the most is not only the millions of fans Michael had but his family, especially those 3 precious kids who loved him so much. His death was senseless.. it did not have to happen!
And yes, Dr. Murray should have been charged with 2nd degree murder.