Conrad Murray trial -Day twelve.

[Thundar]

Soul, ITA that CM did not intend to kill MJ. CM's future with Michael was going to be great for him -- he even might have ended up as the administrator of MJ's Children's Hospital & he would be set for life.

I think CM was NOT trying to wean MJ from milk, at least not that night if MJ was really pleading for it. CM just did what he had been doing with the milk cocktail, but that night he just mistakenly gave a little more than usual or the drip was dispensing more than usual (since he had no idea at what rate the milk was dripping and it was a 100ml vial which is a lot coupled with the drugs already on board). CM may have been a bit peeved with MJ, or he may have thought that MJ needed a bit more than usual or something.

Anyway, it all went wrong and came to a horrible end that CM certainly did not want to happen. When CM found him, IMO he was good & dead, so he knew there was no hurry -- took time to CHA as best he could, too-quickly thought of some kind of scenario that would fly with the staff who wouldn't understand what he said anyway, and thought he was smart enuff to cover his tracks & throw enuff medical jargon at all of them to get by & then he would cruise along till he could get the he!! outta Dodge.

Accidental but arrogant, felonious and egregious negligence -- an insult to his profession, to the People of the State of CA, and to the Jackson family and most of all to a sweet, quirky, amazingly talented little childlike man named Michael.

here ends my mini-rant :rant:

That's a pretty good mini-rant, cause I agree. Murray didn't want this gravy train he had found to end, he and his best girl were going on tour that August. After listening to his LE interview I whole heartedly believe this man thought he could just talk his way out of the mess he found himself in. I wonder what else he has done in his medical life that talking has gotten him out of? Because I bet it has worked before for him or he wouldn't have been so sure it would work this time.

I am still just shocked at the chances this supposedly doctor took with someone's life. Just shocked. And everytime the prosecutor brings another expert in to testify it just looks worse and worse.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Here is an interesting look at CM.

Hello D.E.A. where are you???


Yep- it’s all about Conrad. Hello EGO. Further evidence of this is on the police interrogation tapes of Murray. It is here that we see Murray trying to manipulate the story while leaving out key elements to the police just as he did with the doctors at the hospital and the 911 responders.

Criminal justice experts understand that there are patterns in criminal thinking and in fact are 8 criminal thinking errors. Three of these spell CONRAD MURRAY- entitlement, grandiosity and mollification. In simple terms, Murray was and is oblivious to where his crimes began and where they will end. To support this I would ask people to think about how Murray may still be charged with Federal Crimes like prescription fraud and obstruction of justice. Where is the DEA???
More at link.....

http://notesfromaninsider.com/2011/10/13/conrad-murray-meet-cathy-evelyn-smith-and-she-wasnt-a-dr/

 

[peace9274]

Well, well, well, Ocean Eyes of Blue! You paint a lousy picture for the good doctor. Such a pity...

(Has anybody else had flashbacks to John Lennon's murder during all this??

...... And his killer, Chapman, has been denied parole 6 times on a 20 to life sentence.)

..... Thanks for painting such a sad picture of CM's future possibilities. I like your kind of artwork!

RSBM
BBM

Yes. I too HAVE thought of John Lennon's tragic death quite a bit during the trial. Also, Elvis' early death.

All 3 of them, Michael, John and Elvis were so super talented and should never have been taken from us so unexpectedly and so unnecessarily.

 

[Katprint]

I suppose Dr. Murray consulted with his lawyers on the issue of bail and they recommended which choice they considered to be the best.

I'm sure you're right although I don't know which option Dr. Murray chose. I also don't know whether any bail bond company was willing to post bail for him.

Quite frankly, I think Dr. Murray is a HUGE flight risk. I have represented several bail bond companies in bail exoneration / bail forfeiture hearings more times than I can count. (They had people who do their paperwork then they hire a contract attorney like myself to appear in court on their behalf.) If Aladdin Bail Bonds or Bad Boys Bail Bonds or one of my other occasional bail bond company clients asked me whether they should post bond for him, I would have said NO! Given his irresponsible conduct to date (declined credit cards, cheating on his wife, etc.) I believe there is at least a 50% likelihood he will flee to his native birth-country of Granada or his childhood country of Trinidad where he likely has family, if it appears the trial is going badly once the defense has presented its case. Even if he is not competent by USA standards, there are many third-world countries who would welcome him.

Katprint
Always only my own opinions

 

[Crosby87]

BREAKING NEWS: I am so excited; Sidney Crosby is coming to Winnipeg tomorrow afternoon and I'm going to the airport to meet him. I live within walking distance. Pittsburgh Penquins play the Winnipeg Jets Monday evening and Sidney is travelling with his team. TMK Sidney Crosby has never played hockey in Winnipeg so this is a historical event. To be present to welcome him here is blowing my mind. I love Sidney and tomorrow I have the chance to meet him. WOW. I dropped 10 lbs in less than a month and fit into a short red suit so I'm going to pretend I'm a stewardess or a dignitary to gain access. I figure Sidney will arrive Sunday afternoon. My friend told me to look for the reporters. I think Sidney is Prince Charming LOL.

COD: MJ was electrically charged at his rehearsal and in a heightened state of anxiety the night he died. After seeing MJ on the stretcher, I believe shock was the COD not drugs. Therefore, Dr. Murray isn't responsible for Michael's death because the drugs didn't kill him. Michael's increasing anxiety and the electricity trapped inside his body after rehearsal killed him. IMO

 

[peace9274]

Checking to see if there's any new news about whether the CM Trial is on for tomorrow, Monday 10-17-11.
Or will it resume on Tues, due to the sudden death of witness Dr Schafer's father?

Anyone know?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BREAKING NEWS: I am so excited; Sidney Crosby is coming to Winnipeg tomorrow afternoon and I'm going to the airport to meet him. I live within walking distance. Pittsburgh Penquins play the Winnipeg Jets Monday evening and Sidney is travelling with his team. TMK Sidney Crosby has never played hockey in Winnipeg so this is a historical event. To be present to welcome him here is blowing my mind. I love Sidney and tomorrow I have the chance to meet him. WOW. I dropped 10 lbs in less than a month and fit into a short red suit so I'm going to pretend I'm a stewardess or a dignitary to gain access. I figure Sidney will arrive Sunday afternoon. My friend told me to look for the reporters. I think Sidney is Prince Charming LOL.

COD: MJ was electrically charged at his rehearsal and in a heightened state of anxiety the night he died. After seeing MJ on the stretcher, I believe shock was the COD not drugs. Therefore, Dr. Murray isn't responsible for Michael's death because the drugs didn't kill him. Michael's increasing anxiety and the electricity trapped inside his body after rehearsal killed him. IMO

Well I have to give you an A+ for originality Blue.

That is some kind of COD.:crazy:

What does seeing him on the stretcher have to do with it? He was already dead even when being transported to UCLA ER. Or which time are you talking about. In the death photos he seemed to be like a man sleeping in a hospital room somewhere.

I didn't see any anxiety exhibited the night before he died. Not one bit. A man totally engrossed on his business knowing what needed to be done. I think MJ was pumped not in an anxiety mode.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Checking to see if there's any new news about whether the CM Trial is on for tomorrow, Monday 10-17-11.
Or will it resume on Tues, due to the sudden death of witness Dr Schafer's father?

Anyone know?

I have looked for updates and as it stands now the trial will commence tomorrow. But if Dr. Schafer father's funeral hasn't happened yet the Judge may release the jurors once he knows something in the morning one way or the other.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Ok, I have a question.

The DT is going to try and say that MJ took 8 lorazepam pills and that is what caused his death..not the propofol.

How are they going to do that?

Chernoff said in opening statement that MJ died instantly.

So if MJ took 8 pills then where are the pills? They would not even hit the stomach for at least 20-25 minutes and then the stomach acids would take time to break them all down after then. And if he did that and died shortly after why is such a minute amount of lorazepam found in the 70 grams of fluid in the stomach contents? Equivalent to 1/40th of one pill. 7 and 1/60 pills not found at all.

Now I don't believe any of the DTs theories and heck their theory may change by court time but I wondered if any poster could come up with a reasonable conclusion based on what Chernoff claims to be the cause of death and MJ taking 8 pills on his own.

IMO

 

[LyndyLoo]

Ok, I have a question.

The DT is going to try and say that MJ took 8 lorazepam pills and that is what caused his death..not the propofol.

How are they going to do that?

Chernoff said in opening statement that MJ died instantly.

So if MJ took 8 pills then where are the pills? They would not even hit the stomach for at least 20-25 minutes and then the stomach acids would take time to break them all down after then. And if he did that and died shortly after why is such a minute amount of lorazepam found in the 70 grams of fluid in the stomach contents? Equivalent to 1/40th of one pill. 7 and 1/60 pills not found at all.

Now I don't believe any of the DTs theories and heck their theory may change by court time but I wondered if any poster could come up with a reasonable conclusion based on what Chernoff claims to be the cause of death and MJ taking 8 pills on his own.

IMO

Morning Ocean :seeya:
I think you know just where I stand on all the various theories floated by the defense team..but I am going to try and show you why his theory of Oral Lorazepam is rediculous...

Due to ingestion, the time it takes to be dissolved, absorbed then broken down it takes a heck of alot longer to reach their peak levels...I found when Lorazepam was going used as a premed before procedures timing of administration of it indicates the time discrepancy..

Oral Lorazepam is given 90-120 minutes prior to procedures

IV Lorazepam is given 10 minutes before procedures

The theory of taking 8 pills by MJ wont float the boat here..as IF that is what happened..then where the heck was Conrad for over 2 hours? and dint even notice the changes of MJ's respirations O2 Sats wakefulness etc..

Hope this just shows you how rediculous that theory is as I got it quickly but realize laypersons could be confused by all the theories DT keep floating!!

 

[borndem]

Well I have to give you an A+ for originality Blue.

That is some kind of COD.:crazy:

What does seeing him on the stretcher have to do with it? He was already dead even when being transported to UCLA ER. Or which time are you talking about. In the death photos he seemed to be like a man sleeping in a hospital room somewhere.

I didn't see any anxiety exhibited the night before he died. Not one bit. A man totally engrossed on his business knowing what needed to be done. I think MJ was pumped not in an anxiety mode.

IMO

I very much agree, oceanblue - After hearing Kenny Ortega's description of how MJ was just a few days before his last rehearsal -- weak, no energy, slurring words, etc., etc., -- then seeing him in the last rehearsal where he seemed in touch, alert, energetic, excited, moving well, all good stuff, seems to me, I'm not sure that he was terribly anxious on the last night of his life. The good doctor said MJ was desperate for milk so he could sleep, worried about canceling rehearsal the next day, etc., etc., BUT CM is the only witness to that.

For all we know, MJ might have been asleep on milk by 2:00am, sleeping well with his loading dose of the benzodiazipines, which potentiated the effect of the milk. Somehow, CM overdid it with the benzo's or the milk drip or both, and left him for 30 or more minutes that morning while MJ was trying to breathe and trying to live.

If MJ was anxious at all, he was probably anxious to get back to a good rehearsal again the next night -- in a good way. Just a guess.

Then the Fog of Bad Juju came into his room....

 

[borndem]

The research I did on oral-dosages for lorazepam (Ativan) stated that peak time of the drug was 2--4 hours from dosage; elimination half-life is 10--20 hours; the usual dose range is 2--6 mg/da in divided doses, but daily dosage may vary from 1--10 mg; for anxiety, initial, 2--3 mgs/da; insomnia, single daily dose 2--4 mg da at bedtime; adverse reactions, among many, are respiratory depression, apnea, worsening of sleep apnea, alopecia (hair loss, hmmmmm).

So, as LindyLoo says, the time needed to take effect is a bit long, not even at peak, seems to me for CM's scenario to be believable.

And as others have said, seems like MJ would have been pretty groggy and SLOW to do all this in 2 minutes or less. Think of what-all he would've had to do -- detach his IV and all that other stuff (hah!) that CM had attached to him for that wonderful monitoring that he had going on in that room...

:waiting:Try again, DT. :turkey: :sheesh: This :beagle: dog won't hunt. :snooty: :shakehead:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_benzodiazepines"]List of benzodiazepines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[oceanblueeyes]

ABC news tweeted that there will be no court on Monday.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The research I did on oral-dosages for lorazepam (Ativan) stated that peak time of the drug was 2--4 hours from dosage; elimination half-life is 10--20 hours; the usual dose range is 2--6 mg/da in divided doses, but daily dosage may vary from 1--10 mg; for anxiety, initial, 2--3 mgs/da; insomnia, single daily dose 2--4 mg da at bedtime; adverse reactions, among many, are respiratory depression, apnea, worsening of sleep apnea, alopecia (hair loss, hmmmmm).

So, as LindyLoo says, the time needed to take effect is a bit long, not even at peak, seems to me for CM's scenario to be believable.

And as others have said, seems like MJ would have been pretty groggy and SLOW to do all this in 2 minutes or less. Think of what-all he would've had to do -- detach his IV and all that other stuff (hah!) that CM had attached to him for that wonderful monitoring that he had going on in that room...

:waiting:Try again, DT. :turkey: :sheesh: This :beagle: dog won't hunt. :snooty: :shakehead:

List of benzodiazepines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree. They better go back to the drawing board quick because this one isn't going to work either. They should have thrown that theory away when they dropped the theory that he drank the propofol. Vary strange to see a defense team drop theories right in midstream of the trial. I don't think I have seen another case where that has happened.

What makes me so incensed is they have continually blamed Michael for his own death knowing he is dead and voiceless.:furious:

IMO

 

[Bobbisangel]

I would LOVE for the jury to hear about this. But I doubt that the prosecution
wants to pull any of the kids into this emotional trial. I am not sure if it is worth it in the end. I could not stand it if Flanagan was unleashed on Prince, for example. *shudder*

But I sure wish that the jury could hear what a self serving, flat out liar this doctor Murray has turned out to be. yuck

If one of those defense attorneys tore into Prince the jury would hate him with everything in them. They wouldn't dare.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Well no doctor wants their patient to die while under their care and being human, Michael’s sudden death must have shocked him and ripped his heart out. He was likely overcome wth grief after the sudden loss of his dear friend Michael Jackson.

I can understand why CM needed to distance himself from MJ's family; men often repress their emotions and since CM was the person closest to Michael prior to his death, Dr. Murray probably ran to his car and sobbed his heart out.

JMO

I don't believe for a second that Murray loved MJ. He saw the big bucks in this deal and that is what he was in love with. If he ran out to his car and sobbed after Michael died it was only because he knew he was guilty of causing Michael's death and Murray knew what was going to happen to him because of MJ's death. If Murray had cared in the least about MJ he would have never have left him to go talk on the phone to his women. He would have stayed right by Michael's side to make sure nothing went wrong. I wish he had been charged with murder because if he gets 4 yrs that isn't going to be nearly enough for causing Michael's death or the death of anyone. If you ask me, 4 years is just a slap on the wrist for taking a person's life and putting their family and his little kids through hell. I hope someone exposes all of the lies that man told in his talk with the police two days after the murder. He is such a liar and must have had his story down pat after two days of putting it together. Greed is what caused Michael's death...Murray's greed!

 

[peace9274]

The involuntary manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray will be delayed through Monday and possibly longer,
because of a death in the family of one of the prosecution's key witnesses.

CNN.com reports that proceedings, which had been put on hold until Monday so anesthesiology expert Dr. Steven Shafer
could attend a medical conference, will now be delayed indefinitely as Shafer deals with the death of his father.

"Resumption of the trial will be announced when further information is available," CNN quoted an email from a court representative as saying.

Shafer's testimony is key to the prosecution's attempt to prove that it was negligent of Murray to use propofol to treat Michael Jackson's insomnia.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Huge blow to the defense!

Since DT has put in the theory by cross examining state witnesses that MJ swallowed 8 lorazepam Walgren had testing done on the stomach contents and it proves MJ did not take these pills but the lorazepam were the ones given by MURRAY!

:maddening::maddening::maddening::maddening:

 

[LyndyLoo]

Huge blow to the defense!

Since DT has put in the theory by cross examining state witnesses that MJ swallowed 8 lorazepam Walgren had testing done on the stomach contents and it proves MJ did not take these pills but the lorazepam were the ones given by MURRAY!

:maddening::maddening::maddening::maddening:

This recent result is going to send DT into a tailspin..ALL that spinning and blowing of smoke with the previous witnesses has now backfired!! I have been saying for a long time that those lab results mentioned earlier by Dr. Anderson and others..were entirely consistent with "Post Mortem Re-Distribution" which happens when fluids transfer from one space to another thru osmosis....Its just sumptin I understand..Tho Flanigan sure will tried to baffle it with his smoke and mirrors..:banghead:

I am looking forward to seeing Dr. Shafer explain this to the jurors and will bring some popcorn to watch Flannigan try and confuse the witness and juror's..:floorlaugh:

 

[borndem]

Huge blow to the defense!

Since DT has put in the theory by cross examining state witnesses that MJ swallowed 8 lorazepam Walgren had testing done on the stomach contents and it proves MJ did not take these pills but the lorazepam were the ones given by MURRAY!

:maddening::maddening::maddening::maddening:

Thanks for the info, ocean! At least now we have a bit of good news in spite of there being no trial today to give us good news -- which, somehow, it always seems to do.

Question of the day, prompted by your blurb above:

Most of us stopped believing CM on or before the first day of the trial. By now, nearly all of us WS posters discredit whatever he says. : :tsktsk: : :shakehead: ::no: : :weaklink:

What in the world is taking the DT so long to realize this??? (Doh)

Or are they just trying to get this :liar: off without a care for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?? So help them, gosh.