Cooper Harris - Sidebar Thread

[eileenhawkeye]

They were planning to show the entire trial back in May and I can't see any reason for that to no longer be true. The only differences between now and then is the trial is no longer in the Atlanta area, no longer taking place in the spring/summer months, and Nancy Grace's show was cancelled.


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[Hope4More]

Hoping to see other Arias trial refugees migrate here for this trial.

Steve- I agree, at least with what is publically known at this point, that there is a good chance he won't be found guilty of premeditated (malicious, with intent), first degree murder.

But, if the State has even a few shreds of compelling evidence indicating it wasn't an accident, IMO any jury for this case will be less willing to agree to reasonable doubt precisely because this defendant is profoundly unsympathetic, and definitely responsible for his son's horrible death. JMO.

 

[Steve44]

Hoping to see other Arias trial refugees migrate here for this trial.

Guilty as charged. Speaking of which, how the F do you forget your baby is under two minutes, and it's not just a case of putting him in the car and going straight to daycare/work, he stopped and had breakfast with him, if I'm not mistaken, put him back in the car, and then forgot, and then not once, in seven hours, remembered?

 

[Steve44]

Hoping to see other Arias trial refugees migrate here for this trial.

Steve- I agree, at least with what is publically known at this point, that there is a good chance he won't be found guilty of premeditated (malicious, with intent), first degree murder.

But, if the State has even a few shreds of compelling evidence indicating it wasn't an accident, IMO any jury for this case will be less willing to agree to reasonable doubt precisely because this defendant is profoundly unsympathetic, and definitely responsible for his son's horrible death. JMO.

I'd agree with that, but they have to have something real, and not just character assassination, even if accurate in and of itself.

 

[Hope4More]

Guilty as charged. Speaking of which, how the F do you forget your baby is under two minutes, and it's not just a case of putting him in the car and going straight to daycare/work, he stopped and had breakfast with him, if I'm not mistaken, put him back in the car, and then forgot, and then not once, in seven hours, remembered?

Well, that's a key question the defense is going to have to try to explain, eh?

IMO it's theoretically possible that he did forget, even in that ridiculously short amount of time. Cooper hadn't been sleeping well, and tired kids that young can and do fall asleep almost instantly after being put in a car seat. My DS did just that up until the age of 7 or 8.

Harris's mind was obviously elsewhere-- rushing to avoid being late for work, and thinking about what he was going to text next, at the very least.

State of mind. Difficult to prove, IMO, unless the State has solid evidence of premeditation. What was initially reported about his internet searches (child free life, etc) was very misleading and/or inaccurate, and it appears some of LE's testimony at the probable cause hearing was as well.

I agree with those who focus on the car seat as possible evidence Harris intended to kill Cooper by "forgetting" him. If I understand it correctly, and if what has been reported about the car seat is accurate, as a parent I find it very difficult to believe Harris could have put his toddler into a car seat that was definitely too small for him and-- the part that strains credulity -- put the strap settings on the shortest available, settings intended to be used for babies.

Even an exhausted child, IMO, would have immediately protested that the straps hurt, and by his own account, Harris was supposedly familiar with the correct way to use car seats.

More subjectively....as a juror I would be receptive to testimony about Harris being a man of routine and habit, almost to the point of OCD, though that can cut both ways.

On the one hand it seems unlikely a man of rigid habit could so quickly "forget" to take care of one of the most important tasks on his morning list -- dropping Cooper off at daycare.

On the other hand, I think it's easier to believe that Harris could forget Cooper so quickly if for whatever reason he checked off that "to do" (in mere minutes) and moved on to what was next on the list.

As for forgetting for hours at work. That's possible, IMO, if (big if) Harris thought Cooper was at daycare, though that would require Harris not remembering he had ever forgotten to drop Cooper off.

 

[minor4th]

Well, that's a key question the defense is going to have to try to explain, eh?

IMO it's theoretically possible that he did forget, even in that ridiculously short amount of time. Cooper hadn't been sleeping well, and tired kids that young can and do fall asleep almost instantly after being put in a car seat. My DS did just that up until the age of 7 or 8.

Harris's mind was obviously elsewhere-- rushing to avoid being late for work, and thinking about what he was going to text next, at the very least.

State of mind. Difficult to prove, IMO, unless the State has solid evidence of premeditation. What was initially reported about his internet searches (child free life, etc) was very misleading and/or inaccurate, and it appears some of LE's testimony at the probable cause hearing was as well.

I agree with those who focus on the car seat as possible evidence Harris intended to kill Cooper by "forgetting" him. If I understand it correctly, and if what has been reported about the car seat is accurate, as a parent I find it very difficult to believe Harris could have put his toddler into a car seat that was definitely too small for him and-- the part that strains credulity -- put the strap settings on the shortest available, settings intended to be used for babies.

Even an exhausted child, IMO, would have immediately protested that the straps hurt, and by his own account, Harris was supposedly familiar with the correct way to use car seats.

More subjectively....as a juror I would be receptive to testimony about Harris being a man of routine and habit, almost to the point of OCD, though that can cut both ways.

On the one hand it seems unlikely a man of rigid habit could so quickly "forget" to take care of one of the most important tasks on his morning list -- dropping Cooper off at daycare.

On the other hand, I think it's easier to believe that Harris could forget Cooper so quickly if for whatever reason he checked off that "to do" (in mere minutes) and moved on to what was next on the list.

As for forgetting for hours at work. That's possible, IMO, if (big if) Harris thought Cooper was at daycare, though that would require Harris not remembering he had ever forgotten to drop Cooper off.

I'm probably in the minority here, but unless I hear about some really persuasive evidence from the prosecution, I think he actually forgot Cooper and did not intend to harm or kill him. It happens about 30 times every summer.

 

[JerseyGirl]

I'm here, been here early on and through the first round of jury selection.

I can't believe some of you think he's innocent!

There were multiple missteps during the day where you have to stay to yourself, "HOW COULD HE NOT KNOW HIS SON WAS IN THE CAR!"

And as for work, he was goofing off all day, not busy doing his job where his mind was elsewhere.

How about stopping back at the car after lunch to put the package of lightbulbs in - and yes, I believe that was when he wanted to "make his dramatic discovery" but his 2 friends pulled away too fast and he missed the opportunity.

How about the 4 or 5 minute drive from Home Depot Corporate to the shopping center (WITH HIS DECEASED SON STILL IN THE BACK SEAT) 7 or 8 hours later - where he pulled over in front of a crowd?!?!?

 

[Steve44]

I'm probably in the minority here, but unless I hear about some really persuasive evidence from the prosecution, I think he actually forgot Cooper and did not intend to harm or kill him. It happens about 30 times every summer.

I think it was intentional but it will be difficult to prove. My opinion is based on his lifestyle and his behavior. For example, it's said he had a 'history' of forgetting his son in the car, now, most people, I would think, if they did it once, or even twice, and then watched a video on pets in closed cars would get the hint and change their behavior, instead he learns nothing and in fact becomes the worst example of why every video was ever made on the subject. I believe he had a 'history' of doing this because he was trying to establish a pattern of behavior so his highly unbelievable story of forgetting him for 7 hours would be slightly less unbelievable. Also locking him into a too small car seat with straps set on infant - the only 'logic' I can see in that is so that his son could not struggle free as he was dying of heat stroke and alert a passerby at the car window.

 

[Hope4More]

I think it was intentional but it will be difficult to prove. My opinion is based on his lifestyle and his behavior. For example, it's said he had a 'history' of forgetting his son in the car, now, most people, I would think, if they did it once, or even twice, and then watched a video on pets in closed cars would get the hint and change their behavior, instead he learns nothing and in fact becomes the worst example of why every video was ever made on the subject. I believe he had a 'history' of doing this because he was trying to establish a pattern of behavior so his highly unbelievable story of forgetting him for 7 hours would be slightly less unbelievable. Also locking him into a too small car seat with straps set on infant - the only 'logic' I can see in that is so that his son could not struggle free as he was dying of heat stroke and alert a passerby at the car window.

I don't think actual evidence has been presented that he had a history of forgetting/leaving Cooper in the car. IIRC, that was an inference drawn from limited and possibly inaccurate information that his wife had made him watch the pets in hot cars video for that reason.

As for his "lifestyle." Based on what is known (limited and slanted, IMO) he SEEMS to have been in an unhappy marriage, seems to have been struggling at work and losing opportunities he could ill afford to lose financially, perhaps because he wasn't acting responsibly (frequently late for work, etc.), seems to have been emotionally immature, and was definitely crossing all kinds of ethical, moral and even legal boundaries with his extramarital online pursuits.

All that makes him a terrible husband, a sub par employee, and a man with criminally bad judgement about who it is appropriate to cheat on your wife with, but IMO, none of that indicates he was a father willing to kill his own child, much less in a way he would have known would be excruciating painful in ways I refuse to try to imagine.

It's the car seat thing I keep returning to, and that I will be most interested in hearing testimony about at trial. If the info about how he strapped Cooper in that day is accurate, I think that action (plus leaving him in the car, accidentally or not) justifies a conviction on the felony charge of child neglect/abuse (though I think the law equating that charge with felony murder is a dangerous overreaching by the State).

Even if Harris did "forget" Cooper, it's at least theoretically possible Cooper would still be alive had he not been so tightly strapped into his car seat that he couldn't move enough, even when in frantic extreme duress, to draw attention to himself.

 

[simba16]

O.k., I have to jump in here now, though I need to go back and refresh--isn't this now a slam dunk for the state the way it is being charged? Premeditation NOT a factor. State just has to prove crime committed during the felony of sexting with a minor. ??
Car seat size is intriguing angle mentioned in last posts.

 

[Hope4More]

I'm probably in the minority here, but unless I hear about some really persuasive evidence from the prosecution, I think he actually forgot Cooper and did not intend to harm or kill him. It happens about 30 times every summer.

I'm pretty sure you are in the minority, but heck, someone has to be, and personally I'm grateful to have an eloquent and professionally well informed representative of the minority posting here.

Yes, accidental hot car deaths do happen, which is why I think it's a bad idea to have and enforce a law that doesn't differentiate between accidental and deliberate in assessing the bottom line degree of legal culpability in these cases.

 

[krkrjx]

I'm probably in the minority here, but unless I hear about some really persuasive evidence from the prosecution, I think he actually forgot Cooper and did not intend to harm or kill him. It happens about 30 times every summer.

I believe he intended to harm Cooper. But, I agree the evidence is going to have to be very strong to convince a jury of this. And I fear it will not be and he will be acquitted.

 

[GA_Peach]

Well, that's a key question the defense is going to have to try to explain, eh?

IMO it's theoretically possible that he did forget, even in that ridiculously short amount of time. Cooper hadn't been sleeping well, and tired kids that young can and do fall asleep almost instantly after being put in a car seat. My DS did just that up until the age of 7 or 8.

Harris's mind was obviously elsewhere-- rushing to avoid being late for work, and thinking about what he was going to text next, at the very least.

State of mind. Difficult to prove, IMO, unless the State has solid evidence of premeditation. What was initially reported about his internet searches (child free life, etc) was very misleading and/or inaccurate, and it appears some of LE's testimony at the probable cause hearing was as well.

I agree with those who focus on the car seat as possible evidence Harris intended to kill Cooper by "forgetting" him. If I understand it correctly, and if what has been reported about the car seat is accurate, as a parent I find it very difficult to believe Harris could have put his toddler into a car seat that was definitely too small for him and-- the part that strains credulity -- put the strap settings on the shortest available, settings intended to be used for babies.

Even an exhausted child, IMO, would have immediately protested that the straps hurt, and by his own account, Harris was supposedly familiar with the correct way to use car seats.

More subjectively....as a juror I would be receptive to testimony about Harris being a man of routine and habit, almost to the point of OCD, though that can cut both ways.

On the one hand it seems unlikely a man of rigid habit could so quickly "forget" to take care of one of the most important tasks on his morning list -- dropping Cooper off at daycare.

On the other hand, I think it's easier to believe that Harris could forget Cooper so quickly if for whatever reason he checked off that "to do" (in mere minutes) and moved on to what was next on the list.

As for forgetting for hours at work. That's possible, IMO, if (big if) Harris thought Cooper was at daycare, though that would require Harris not remembering he had ever forgotten to drop Cooper off.

Respectfully bolded by me. I don't disagree with you at all, and IMO that will be Ross's downfall. The state doesn't have to prove intent, only a reckless disregard for Cooper's safety (see my explanation below). Ross was distracted by other things when Cooper was in his care, and that distraction, whether intentional or not, lead to Cooper's death. IMO Ross was clearly negligent.

O.k., I have to jump in here now, though I need to go back and refresh--isn't this now a slam dunk for the state the way it is being charged? Premeditation NOT a factor. State just has to prove crime committed during the felony of sexting with a minor. ??
Car seat size is intriguing angle mentioned in last posts.

The other felony that allegedly occurred during the commission of the crime is second-degree child cruelty. Here are the details:

Harris has been charged with felony murder as well as malice murder. Unlike malice murder, which requires intent, felony murder refers to a death that occurs during the commission of another felony. In the case of JRH, the other felony is second-degree child cruelty. Second-degree child cruelty simply requires criminal negligence, not willful intent. In Georgia, "criminal negligence is an act or failure to act which demonstrates a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby." In order for the prosecution to prove that JRH committed felony murder, they only need to prove that JRH showed a reckless disregard for Cooper's safety.

While I think that proving intent and malice beyond a reasonable doubt will be nearly impossible (I am not expecting to see a conviction of malice murder and first-degree child cruelty), it will be equally hard for the defense to show that JRH didn't show a reckless disregard for Cooper's life if for no other reason than Cooper died "under" Ross's care (likely as a direct result of being distracted). I suspect that he will be found guilty of second-degree child cruelty, which would also lead to a felony murder conviction.

As mentioned in other posts, JRH was allegedly distracted by his texting. It's precisely for that reason that his actions are likely to be considered criminally negligent. Rather than looking after Cooper and dropping him off at daycare, he was paying attention to his phone. He was less concerned with the blood flowing to his brain and more concerned with the blood flowing to other parts of his body.

I wonder how jury selection will go on Monday. I highly suspect that JRH will be just as unlikable in Brunswick as he was in Atlanta.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

A firefighter leaves his 23-month old son in the car in Florida- is charged with manslaughter

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...d-son-dies-hot-pickup-truck-article-1.2786730

 

[tlcya]

Looks like Jury Selection will indeed be starting on Monday the 12th.

 

[knt]

I'm probably in the minority here, but unless I hear about some really persuasive evidence from the prosecution, I think he actually forgot Cooper and did not intend to harm or kill him. It happens about 30 times every summer.

Agree

 

[SuzDuJour]

I just don't see how he could forget a child in less than a minute from the buckling in at chick-fil-a to the point of making a turn to daycare.

 

[zoey]

A firefighter leaves his 23-month old son in the car in Florida- is charged with manslaughter

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...d-son-dies-hot-pickup-truck-article-1.2786730

I just don't get it---how can you "forget" your child....

 

[Jinkasaurus]

I just don't get it---how can you "forget" your child....

It is hard to understand... but yet it happens on a regular basis. Have you read this article? https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...e0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html

I wish the author of that article would research the Cooper Harris case (and follow the trial) and then share his perspective on what makes it different (and similar) to all of the other incidents in which parents have forgotten their children in the car.

 

[krkrjx]

It is hard to understand... but yet it happens on a regular basis. Have you read this article? https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...e0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html

I wish the author of that article would research the Cooper Harris case (and follow the trial) and then share his perspective on what makes it different (and similar) to all of the other incidents in which parents have forgotten their children in the car.

Apparently the Harris case is different somehow. We all must accept that deadly accidents happen and I try to be less judgmental for what might cause another to "forget" something so important as another human being in their care but...for some reason that has yet to be explained to my satisfaction, LE and the judge involved in the Harris case believe this case to be more than the typical negligence of other hot car death cases. There had to be something about the circumstances surrounding Cooper's death that immediately alarmed LE and subsequently, a judge.

I am waiting to know what it is that makes this case different and if it is not something glaring and obvious or easily proven without a reasonable doubt, he will not be found guilty as charged. He can't be, and shouldn't be, if the evidence doesn't support it.