Could Bush Have Done More

[Dara]

What you're saying is that you expected the federal government to decalre MARTIAL LAW before the disaster occured and negate the powers of the state's elected officals BEFORE the fact. That is bascally not allowed in the constitution, and I think we fought a war over this 140+ years ago.

Nope. You misread.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Probably not by the time they were being raped and shot at.

At which point if the president had the power to stop the violence, why didn't he?

Was he supposed to teleport troops in there ala Star Trek?
Troop deployment is not something you can snap your fingers and make happen, even under the best of circumstances. And when the land routes utilized for heavy equipment movement (ie the Interstates) have been blown into the lake, and the smaller state hwys are blocked with trees and downed powerlines, clearing a path to a water-bound city for not only thousands of troops but the supply convoy that provides them with support will take time, especially given the huge swath of destruction.

 

[Dara]

Was he supposed to teleport troops in there ala Star Trek?
Troop deployment is not something you can snap your fingers and make happen, even under the best of circumstances. And when the land routes utilized for heavy equipment movement (ie the Interstates) have been blown into the lake, and the smaller state hwys are blocked with trees and downed powerlines, clearing a path to a water-bound city for not only thousands of troops but the supply convoy that provides them with support will take time, especially given the huge swath of destruction.

So now, he couldn't get them there?

Well, since he couldn't deploy them until he invoked IA (I am not 100% sure but so far, this looks accurate), and as last as Friday he hadn't done that and apparently gave the governor another 24 hours to decide if she wanted him to. Blame the governor, sure, but what about the guy who let her do it?

The Pentagon also authorized Adm. Timothy Keating, head of the Northern Command, to lay plans for possibly deploying active-duty troops — a move that can be ordered only by the president under the rarely used Insurrection Act.

According to that, they knew the president might invoke IA, which suggests he could.

We manage to get other places under terrible circumstances.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Nope. You misread.

No, I think you don't understand just how screwed up Louisiana is re its political parties, the corrupt political leaders, and its century long tendency to put off tomorrow what they could today. Like I said, i lived there 10 years and it was/is a banana republic. And the federal government has to assume that the individual states actually have things in hand when they say "we have things in hand". Everything you wanted Bush to do in advance of Katrina would have required federalizing the state of Lousiana (and Alabama and Mississippi) and the declaration of martial law. And the people running LA would have fought tooth and nail re that decision.

Plus, it should be noted that the state of Louisiana privatized is hurricane preparedness to a company called IEM (Innovative Emergency Management) that supposedly was in charge of creating emergency plans for NO under such a situation as this. IEM has since removed the 2004 press release crowing about thei multi-million dollar contract for New Orelans.

 

[Dara]

No, I think you don't understand just how screwed up Louisiana is re its political parties, the corrupt political leaders, and its century long tendency to put off tomorrow what they could today. Like I said, i lived there 10 years and it was/is a banana republic. And the federal government has to assume that the individual states actually have things in hand when they say "we have things in hand". Everything you wanted Bush to do in advance of Katrina would have required federalizing the state of Lousiana (and Alabama and Mississippi) and the declaration of martial law. And the people running LA would have fought tooth and nail re that decision.

You didn't read the whole thread, did you?

Advance of Katrina? Advance? My biggest worry is after Katrina. If you don't know that, you really need to read the thread.

When people were lying there dying and the president apparently could have stopped it and didn't after days and days--if you think that's in advance of Katrina, I don't know how to help you.

Plus, it should be noted that the state of Louisiana privatized is hurricane preparedness to a company called IEM (Innovative Emergency Management) that supposedly was in charge of creating emergency plans for NO under such a situation as this. IEM has since removed the 2004 press release crowing about thei multi-million dollar contract for New Orelans.

And once we knew the people were dying and being raped and aid workers were getting shot at--I think that's when you stop saying, "Well, they should have been prepared" and you do what you can. If that's invoking a law that might cause political fallout and save lives, you do it. If he could do it, he had the obligation. And it looks like he did it Saturday, btw. Two different sources suggest that. So apparently he could.

 

[TexMex]

No, I think you don't understand just how screwed up Louisiana is re its political parties, the corrupt political leaders, and its century long tendency to put off tomorrow what they could today. Like I said, i lived there 10 years and it was/is a banana republic. And the federal government has to assume that the individual states actually have things in hand when they say "we have things in hand". Everything you wanted Bush to do in advance of Katrina would have required federalizing the state of Lousiana (and Alabama and Mississippi) and the declaration of martial law. And the people running LA would have fought tooth and nail re that decision.

Plus, it should be noted that the state of Louisiana privatized is hurricane preparedness to a company called IEM (Innovative Emergency Management) that supposedly was in charge of creating emergency plans for NO under such a situation as this. IEM has since removed the 2004 press release crowing about thei multi-million dollar contract for New Orelans.

Absolutely correct.

 

[concernedperson]

No, I think you don't understand just how screwed up Louisiana is re its political parties, the corrupt political leaders, and its century long tendency to put off tomorrow what they could today. Like I said, i lived there 10 years and it was/is a banana republic. And the federal government has to assume that the individual states actually have things in hand when they say "we have things in hand". Everything you wanted Bush to do in advance of Katrina would have required federalizing the state of Lousiana (and Alabama and Mississippi) and the declaration of martial law. And the people running LA would have fought tooth and nail re that decision.

Plus, it should be noted that the state of Louisiana privatized is hurricane preparedness to a company called IEM (Innovative Emergency Management) that supposedly was in charge of creating emergency plans for NO under such a situation as this. IEM has since removed the 2004 press release crowing about thei multi-million dollar contract for New Orelans.

I wonder if Louisiana can be annexed into the State of Texas? It is just so scary. They actually turned over hurricane preparedness for a sum to a private company? Although I am not fond of the Bush Administration right now, the Louisiana political machine is appalling.

 

[Dara]

Absolutely correct.

And how did any of the take away Bush's legal right, if he had one, to use IA?

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

So now, he couldn't get them there?

Well, since he couldn't deploy them until he invoked IA (I am not 100% sure but so far, this looks accurate), and as last as Friday he hadn't done that and apparently gave the governor another 24 hours to decide if she wanted him to. Blame the governor, sure, but what about the guy who let her do it?

According to that, they knew the president might invoke IA, which suggests he could.

We manage to get other places under terrible circumstances.

Yeah, in about the same amount of time.

This does not excuse the fact that the city of New Orleans had no plan except the Superdome, and, as it turns out, they knew the Superdome was Not A Good Idea after previous hurricanes. Rapes & murders occured then, as well.

And there's this thing called STATES RIGHTS. As I said, we found a war over them 140+ years ago. The President can not run roughshod over the elected governors. If a governor is being an idiot, there's not a whole lot the President can do that will not make things even worse than they already are.
It's up to the Governor's electorate to threaten them with impeachment for failure to act/ineptness, not the President.

The Federal governemnt does not turn on a dime. it turns on a $1.50
The fact they got as many people out as they did as fast as they did is actually impressive, if one knows the ity and the surrounding area.

And the disaster is not relegated to just new Orleans. Covington, Slidell, Mandeville, Waveland, Pass Christian, Bay St. Louis, Gulfort, Biloxi, Hattiesburg and Mobile, not to mention Grand Isle and hundreds of tiny towns scattered in between have been hit by this. New Orleans has gotten all the ink, but the damage goes far, far more than just the city. We have never had a natural disaster of this magnitude in the recorded history of our country. Ever. You can plan for destruction of biblical proportions, but there is a differerence between what's on paper and what's really confronting you in the here and now.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Right. All she had to do was ask. Which she quite posssibly did (New Mexico, White House didn't approve until Thursday). I understand that. She should have done a lot of things and not done others, and she is likely to blame for many things, many deaths. She could be the anti-Christ, secretly dancing gleefully in front of an altar because people were dying in the streets and areas of NO. That doesn't change whether or not Bush could have federalized the troops earlier.

You're dtermined to put the blame on Bush, regardless of all the other broken cogs gumming up the machine. Why?

 

[Dara]

Yeah, in about the same amount of time.

I don't think that's accurate.

This does not excuse the fact that the city of New Orleans had no plan except the Superdome, and, as it turns out, they knew the Superdome was Not A Good Idea after previous hurricanes. Rapes & murders occured then, as well.

I didn't say it did. This thread is about Bush. And since none of that changes his response or invalidates the question of why he did not act sooner, I won't address it here.

And there's this thing called STATES RIGHTS. As I said, we found a war over them 140+ years ago. The President can not run roughshod over the elected governors. If a governor is being an idiot, there's not a whole lot the President can do that will not make things even worse than they already are.

Right. He could, apparently, invoke IA. I know what he couldn't do. I want to know why he didn't do what he could do.

It's up to the Governor's electorate to threaten them with impeachment for failure to act/ineptness, not the President.

I the voters were a little busy dying being raped to start an impeachment rallying cry over something they were trying to survive.

 

[TexMex]

And how did any of the take away Bush's legal right, if he had one, to use IA?

It doesn't take away his legal rights. You aren't even sure if he has the right, yet will blame him whether he uses that right or not, 'if he had one'.
The Gov told him she had things under control---but that's Bush's fault somehow.

 

[kgeaux]

The asked for 24 hour delay I heard about was when Bush flew down there. The mayor, gov and Bush were together (on Air Force One?)and the mayor was saying you two have to get your act together. Bush and the gov went off and came back. Bush said he was ready to move but the gov wanted another 24 hours. What day did Bush visit?

His second trip down. Nagin had left the room, Bush met with Blanco alone and later reported the conversation to Nagin. Nagin was not happy with Blanco.

 

[tipper]

Thanks - I just remember watching Nagin being interviewed about it.

 

[Dara]

It doesn't take away his legal rights. You aren't even sure if he has the right, yet will blame him whether he uses that right or not, 'if he had one'.
The Gov told him she had things under control---but that's Bush's fault somehow.

From what I've read and posted, I feel confident he did, and am feeling more so as new information comes out. So, I'm operating from that belief. I'm using a qualifier because it's so complex. But, yes, I believe he could have based on what I know now.

And, yes, if the governor said she had things under control and didn't, it is his job to do what he can do. You can hold her accountable for saying she did when she didn't, but he has to take his accountability. A leader has to do that sometimes, and if he had that right, he should have used it. If he thought she was doing fine, why did he offer to take over? Even that's ridiculous. If he could have so little idea of what was going on that the governor could "fool" him, he doesn't deserve the job.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

You didn't read the whole thread, did you?

Advance of Katrina? Advance? My biggest worry is after Katrina. If you don't know that, you really need to read the thread.

When people were lying there dying and the president apparently could have stopped it and didn't after days and days--if you think that's in advance of Katrina, I don't know how to help you.


And once we knew the people were dying and being raped and aid workers were getting shot at--I think that's when you stop saying, "Well, they should have been prepared" and you do what you can. If that's invoking a law that might cause political fallout and save lives, you do it. If he could do it, he had the obligation. And it looks like he did it Saturday, btw. Two different sources suggest that. So apparently he could.

In order to have the troops there to handle to problem that arose from the mayor allowing looting to occur in the first place, which rapdily snowballed into the rape & murder spree on the streets of the city, it would have required troops being in there BEFORE the storm hit. Because getting them in there on Tuesday & Wednesday was impossible. Why? Because the hurricane was still in the area, throwing tornadoes as far as Atlanta, until Wed morning. You can't move troops (or anything else) under those conditions. And the levees didn't break until Tuesday--up until that point, everyone thought NO had yet again dodge the bullet. And, to be blunt, I don't think they expected people to go absolutely ROAD WARRIOR within 24 hours to the point of opening fire on rescue helicopters and looting hospitals for drugs.

 

[TexMex]

From what I've read and posted, I feel confident he did, and am feeling more so as new information comes out. So, I'm operating from that belief. I'm using a qualifier because it's so complex. But, yes, I believe he could have based on what I know now.

And, yes, if the governor said she had things under control and didn't, it is his job to do what he can do. You can hold her accountable for saying she did when she didn't, but he has to take his accountability. A leader has to do that sometimes, and if he had that right, he should have used it. If he thought she was doing fine, why did he offer to take over? Even that's ridiculous. If he could have so little idea of what was going on that the governor could "fool" him, he doesn't deserve the job.

Do you applaud Pres Bush for his quick deployment of the Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers?

 

[Dara]

In order to have the troops there to handle to problem that arose from the mayor allowing looting to occur in the first place, which rapdily snowballed into the rape & murder spree on the streets of the city, it would have required troops being in there BEFORE the storm hit. Because getting them in there on Tuesday & Wednesday was impossible. Why? Because the hurricane was still in the area, throwing tornadoes as far as Atlanta, until Wed morning. You can't move troops (or anything else) under those conditions. And the levees didn't break until Tuesday--up until that point, everyone thought NO had yet again dodge the bullet. And, to be blunt, I don't think they expected people to go absolutely ROAD WARRIOR within 24 hours to the point of opening fire on rescue helicopters and looting hospitals for drugs.

I don't think your information is accurate. I try to provide links when I can so I can judge for myself. Can you show me something that says it was impossible to get any troops to NO before Saturday?

 

[Dara]

Do you applaud Pres Bush for his quick deployment of the Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers?

Sorry, Tex. Not playing the game. I'm here to discuss the hurricane, not to police other people's posts or have mine policed, except by mods.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I don't think that's accurate.

I didn't say it did. This thread is about Bush. And since none of that changes his response or invalidates the question of why he did not act sooner, I won't address it here.

Right. He could, apparently, invoke IA. I know what he couldn't do. I want to know why he didn't do what he could do.

It's up to the Governor's electorate to threaten them with impeachment for failure to act/ineptness, not the President.

I the voters were a little busy dying being raped to start an impeachment rallying cry over something they were trying to survive.

Jesus, lady. You don't get it. It's called "Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't".
If he HAD invoked IA every Bush hater would be screaming Fascist and comparing it to the annexation Poland.
Since no other president in living memory has utilized it, why do you think he would have?
And if you think Clinton's office would have been any more efficient faced with something of this magnitude, you certainly didn't live through any of the hurricanes that struck during his presidency. Bureaucracy is the same, regardless of who is in office. That's why its bureaucracy.