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Day 3 SBTC - The 12 Days of JonBenet

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Tricia, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    fr brown,
    Looking over the RN again, maybe the Foreign Faction was intended to be a religiously inspired group? Not so far fetched in todays world of End of Days, all the infighting in Syria, Iraq, etc.

    The Victory part suggests a military theme, and SBTC offers a link to the bible. Seen as staging its difficult to see why Patsy might inject personal messages into the RN, since the idea is to fake an abduction not advertise her spiritual learning.

    Patsy has to know others will recognize SBTC for its religious meaning, This is why I think Patsy wants us to believe some crazy religious sect has kidnapped JonBenet. Elizabeth Smart had been kidnapped in 2002, right out of her bedroom, yet not many child abductions lead to ransom notes the majority are physical and mental abuse cases.

    .
     
  2. southernmimi

    southernmimi Active Member

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    I don't think the Ramseys had time to be very creative about the RN. It seems a jumbled up compilation of some lines from movies, a bit of Psalms and other quotes they could quickly remember plus some of her personal feelings about JR. It, to me, is nonsense on a large scale and basically means nothing. I agree that SBTC is more than likely Saved By the Cross,
     
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  3. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. It looks like someone throwing $@!+ at the wall and hoping something will stick.
     
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  4. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    I think that folks should look at the photo of the beginning of Psalm 35 to see "SBTC" for themselves. That Bible has close to 2000 pages with, say, 70 lines per page and maybe 10 words per line, being conservative. There are no other contiguous lines or contiguous words starting with "SBTC" or "CTBS" in the entire work, and the Bible was open to that psalm. This is not a coincidence.

    It's likely that Patsy would take "SBTC" to be a sign from God if she were familiar with the phrase "saved by the cross." I don't know that she was.

    There's evidence that Patsy did labor over the ransom note. There are nine pages, iirc, missing from the middle of the pad. They may have been rejected notes

    I doubt if she thought anyone would connect that Bible with "SBTC." How would she know that the crime scene photographer would photograph the open books? I don't see this initialism as advertising religious leanings. The rest of the note is not religious.

    In John's book, "The Other Side of Suffering," he tells us that he read the acrostic psalm, Psalm 34, to Patsy on her deathbed and made her cry. There are 150 psalms. Why did he pick that one? It's not a nice one. It promises a divine ass-kicking to those who injure the righteous. Again, not a coincidence. Why he told us about it is an interesting question.
     
  5. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    Just for the hell of it, I checked for occurrences of the phrase "saved by the cross" in google ngram viewer, which searches books, and I also looked in a database which checks tv shows, magazines and newspapers. There are a couple of uses in books in the late 1800s and early 1900s; nothing in tv shows, magazines, newspapers. This doesn't mean that the phrase isn't used frequently in churches (though I never have heard it there-- or anywhere). This phrase is mostly, it seems, used on JonBenet Ramsey forums.

    It's a good idea to check assumptions once in a while. Was "F.B.I." really preferred to "FBI" until recently? Well, no. "FBI" has always won by a mile, including in materials published by the FBI. NYT and some other newspapers use "F.B.I."
     
  6. southernmimi

    southernmimi Active Member

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    In the deep South, saved by the cross is a very popular statement and used frequently in religious songs, books, and sermons. It's not unusual at all.
     
  7. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    Possibly, but I don't think it's made it into books. Can you cite some?

    I was just making a point about questioning assumptions; it doesn't affect the argument about the origin of "SBTC," of course.
     
  8. southernmimi

    southernmimi Active Member

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    Sorry, I haven't memorized any books specifically with that statement in them. Just wanted to point out that it's a popular statement/ sentiment and not an assumption.
     
  9. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    Sorry, when you said the phrase had made it into books I thought that meant that you had some book in mind.

    I did find a book called "Saved by the Cross" published in 2015. Google ngram viewer stops at 2000, I think. Whether the phrase was popular in the 90s and earlier, and/or known to Patsy is something that has to be settled by consulting the record, such as it is.
     
  10. southernmimi

    southernmimi Active Member

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    I've lived in this area almost 66 years, and have heard the phrase as far back as I can remember. I have no idea if that is what is meant in the RN or not, but just a thought.
     
  11. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    Well, sure, you would consult your own experience. My remark wasn't directed at you personally. It was a comment about statements that seem plausible, get repeated a thousand times, and are never questioned thereafter.

    Your observation about them having a hodgepodge of movie quotes, etc. rattling around in their heads is interesting. (I personally think we're only talking about Patsy's head.) I can see that for "Dirty Harry" and "Speed," but "Ruthless People"? That's also a structural thing. The lines themselves aren't particularly memorable, but versions made it in there.
     
  12. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    So if the Bible were already open to Psalms 34 and 35, an intruder with time on his hands could have used the note about acrostic poems and the beginning of Psalm 35 as inspiration for his small foreign faction. The problem with that is that Patsy denied reading that Bible and John has never said, to my knowledge, that he might have opened the Bible there. An intruder would probably not be aware of Psalm 35's connection to Psalm 57 or know of Psalm 57's significance to Patsy. And it wouldn't explain the astonishing claim by John in TOSOS that he read Psalm 34 to Patsy when she was dying, letting us know, I would say, that he knows.

    I have never seen anyone from the Ramsey side address the connection between Psalm 35 and "SBTC," even though they love taking the mickey out of Don Foster when they can. When Lin Wood questioned Steve Thomas about "SBTC" he only asked about the date of a call Thomas made to the US Treasury Department.

    What people don't say is often more significant than what they do.
     
  13. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    "Death of Innocence" doesn't seem to contain any references to Psalm 34 whereas TOSOS contains three: two chapter headings and the claim that John read it to Patsy. That's a lot of Psalm 34 for one book so maybe John is setting up a case that the Bible was probably already open to his favorite psalm. If so, they should have settled for the chapter headings. Psalm 34 contains this verse: "Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies." That's a little on the nose for someone dying in her 50s from cancer.
     
  14. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    I'm always struck by how the Ramsey side ignores the fact-cluster around Psalm 35. They must feel that it's very damning to one of the Ramseys.
     
  15. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    That image, shared by Psalms 35 and 57, of lions falling into the pits they've dug to trap David is richly comical. All it lacks is a roadrunner and an anvil.
     
  16. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    So if there is a connection between Patsy's lifesaving psalm (57) and the psalm (35) containing SBTC, why did Patsy tell a long anecdote in Death of Innocence (March 2000) about Psalm 57? That seems reckless. (As she tells it, Patsy stabs her finger at random into a line in Psalm 57. When she reads that line, she takes it as a promise from God to save her from cancer.) Probably she included the anecdote because she didn't know that SBTC had been discovered in Psalm 35.

    It's not like it took a lot of discovering because SBTC really pops out from the page, but it did require flipping one page back from the page the Ramsey Bible was opened to at the time of the crime. The police had a photograph of the opened Bible, but didn't have the book itself: Patsy's sister had removed it from the premises during her rampage. I don't know if Foster obtained a physical copy of the particular NIV Study Bible or if he used an electronic version, but whichever he used, he discovered SBTC in the opening lines of Psalm 35.

    Foster presented his discovery in March or April of 1998, but I suspect that none of Hunter's DA's (being entirely dismissive of Don Foster courtesy of jameson) told Ramsey lawyers.

    The same anecdote about Psalm 57 also makes it into The Other Side of Suffering except that John and Patsy are sharing a soggy hug. By now the Ramsey side clearly knows about Psalm 35 and SBTC because the acrostic psalm that Psalm 35 shares a page with, Psalm 34, turns up multiple times in the book. I don't think the ghostwriter would have thrown those references in on her own. So John knew about Psalm 35, but the presence of the story about 57 suggests to me that he hadn't made the connection between Psalm 57 and Psalm 35. You can't get from Psalm 35 to 57 because there's no cross-reference in it to 57. Psalm 57, however, does contain a cross-reference to a line in Psalm 35, a x-reference which is located in close proximity to Patsy's very special Psalm 57 line: "I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings until the disaster has passed." I suspect Patsy did just what she did before, stabbed her finger into the page and took its landing place as a message from God. The Bible was found opened to the cross-referenced page.
     
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  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    fr brown,

    Is any reference to any Psalm not simply spurious, e.g. a consequence of JR getting his biblical reference wrong, i.e. allegedly it was his desk the bible was photographed lying open on?

    I reckon JR's postmortem remarks about the bible, his bonus and Patsy being saved by the cross after sticking her finger into the pages, are simply postmortem rationalizations to match the then changing circumstances?

    Prior to finding JonBenet, after she is found and during subsequent interviews JR is busy amending forensic evidence, how it should be interpreted, etc.

    JR went from an Inside Job to an Intruder quite smoothly citing Lou Smit, Haverstock, et al.

    IMO its JR who was thumping the bible not Patsy. JR and PR had to collude in private to come up with matching versions of events.

    So the references to the Psalms might simply represent postmortem staging?

    .
     
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  18. fr brown

    fr brown Active Member

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    I don't understand much of the above, I'm afraid.

    John didn't say anything about Patsy being saved by the cross that I'm aware of. The story about Psalm 57 appears in both DOI and TOSOS, but in DOI Patsy is having a solitary experience. John is making business calls. I suspect that the ghostwriter for TOSOS decided to recycle the story and spin it to make John look good.
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    fr brown,
    Surely you are aware that JR has adopted a biblical stance, citing references liberally, also consider JR praying, allegedly on his knees, with Lou Smit?


    What the parents cite in their books is recollection. The events may have happened or they could have been invented as postmortem staging?

    What link might the Psalm have with the alleged intruder?

    .
     
  20. Waterdog

    Waterdog Well-Known Member

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    She did it. By and far.
     

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