Day Number 1 What Convinces You There Was No Intruder/12 Days of JonBenet

[AndHence]

There are really only two ways to view this case. Either:

1) the Ramseys staged the crime scene and wrote a ransom note to point away from their involvement in the death of their daughter

or

2) a criminal MASTERMIND (who, by nearly incalculable odds, just happens to have similar handwriting characteristics to Patsy Ramsey) killed JonBenet and then "staged a staging" to make it look as though the parents not only killed their daughter but also staged the crime scene to make it look as though they did not.

Occam's razor would suggest the former is far more probable than the latter scenario.

 

[BBB167893]

Is behavior considered evidence? There really is so much evidence but the thing that gets me the most is the behavior of the family, and the inconsistencies in, and changing of their statements, and outright lies.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

Yes, it very much is evidence. Maybe not as powerful as forensics or eyewitness testimony, but it is evidence.

 

[BBB167893]

Nothing. Because there was an unknown person in that house who killed jonbenet.

That's NOT what I asked.

The evidence backs that up.

I'm afraid it doesn't, Scarlett. And I should know.

It is obvious to everyone that looks at the evidence without the slant of drama and conspiracy.

Are you kidding? The drama and conspiracies are all on your side!

Made up stories or scenarios, crazy accusations and suppositions do nothing to show guilt. Only imagination.

You just described why I switched sides.

The evidence proves there was someone else in that house.
It proves method of entry, that she died awake and that the garroting was true cause of death and that the Dna left behind was from a single source in multiple places and proves connection to the crime.

Sorry, Scarlett. I can't agree with any of that, other than the garrote did finally kill her. There's no proof that anyone came in that way; she was already unconscious and the DNA has too many problems with it to say it's connected.

I know people have staked their careers and reputations on this case and I think most of them only have Denver police to blame. The lies, the manipulation of the leaks early on and the ridiculous lack of experience and incompetency that was the beginning of this case.

I don't fault anyone for being rdi. I can see how people were led down the garden path by histrionics and outright lies from the Boulder pd.

Oh, PLEASE! DO NOT waste my time with that bulls**t! Do you realize what you've just said? You're accusing everyone from the FBI to the experts who worked this case right on down the line or either being taken in by some awful police conspiracy or actually being part of it. I'm not that stupid.

Yeah, someone's lying, all right.

I wish they could be prosecuted for it.

You know, I talked to someone a couple of years back who said the same thing. This person (can't remember the name) said they wanted a Grand Jury to investigate the Boulder police. I said, "Great idea! But let's not stop there. Let's have them investigate the District Attorney's office, Lin Wood, the Ramsey defense team and private investigators and Lou Smit while they're at it!" The matter was QUICKLY dropped, for obvious reasons.

 

[BBB167893]

There is Dna. It is in two different articles of clothing and where someone would grab her clothes to pull them off.

It was on a few other places, very easily transferable, and had five other DNA profiles with it.

 

[BBB167893]

The ransom note! The ransom note! No killer/kidnapper/stranger is writing that note.

It's the sticking piece for me that someone inside that house with lots of time on their hands wrote that note.

Agreed. No one's going to take that kind of time, when they could be caught at any moment.

Let me give you guys a real-life example. Back in the day, there was a TV show called Hee Haw, sort of a southern-fried Laugh-In. In the first few seasons, one of the regular cast members was David Akeman, better known as "Stringbean." Stringbean was well-known to carry large amounts of cash on him and that he didn't trust banks, so he kept all of his cash at home. Well, a couple of local no-goods, two cousins named John A. Brown and Marvin Douglas Brown, decided they needed Stringbean's money worse than he did. They planned their robbery while Stringbean was performing at the Grand Ol Opry. They'd break into the house and search, all the while they had the radio tuned to the Opry. That way they would know when Stringbean had finished up and was heading home, like an early-warning system. That way, they could get out without being caught, money or no money.

What kind of early-warning system did this person have? None.

 

[BBB167893]

Is it true she boasted about being ambidextrous? I'm sure I read that somewhere!

She didn't boast, she just made a slight admission.

 

[BBB167893]

Is there a book specifically looking into the psychology of PR?

Don't I wish! Maybe someday Steven Pitt will write about this case. If he does, that might be the closest we ever get.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.12news.com/news/local/va...es-keys-to-cases-like-wilson-ramsey/316392515

Phoenix forensic psychiatrist shares keys to cases like Wilson, Ramsey
September 09, 2016

PHOENIX - Steven Pitt knows more about criminals and the criminal mind than most. The forensic psychiatrist has worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case and the Columbine massacre. An expert in interviewing techniques, he has worked with police departments all across the country.

This December will mark 20 years since the body of JonBenet Ramsey was discovered in her home. The little girl was strangled to death and left in the basement. Steven Pitt was contacted to assist in the investigation about a year after the murder.
“The initial call the initial request was really more about ‘How do we best get to know about these people?’” said Pitt.
The goal of any investigator is to better understand the victim and the people close to them.
“Understanding the dynamic between John and Patsy Ramsey and them and the victim (JonBenet),” said Pitt.

 

[BBB167893]

That's NOT what I asked.



I'm afraid it doesn't, Scarlett. And I should know.



Are you kidding? The drama and conspiracies are all on your side!



You just described why I switched sides.



Sorry, Scarlett. I can't agree with any of that, other than the garrote did finally kill her. There's no proof that anyone came in that way; she was already unconscious and the DNA has too many problems with it to say it's connected.



Oh, PLEASE! DO NOT waste my time with that bulls**t! Do you realize what you've just said? You're accusing everyone from the FBI to the experts who worked this case right on down the line or either being taken in by some awful police conspiracy or actually being part of it. I'm not that stupid.

Yeah, someone's lying, all right.



You know, I talked to someone a couple of years back who said the same thing. This person (can't remember the name) said they wanted a Grand Jury to investigate the Boulder police. I said, "Great idea! But let's not stop there. Let's have them investigate the District Attorney's office, Lin Wood, the Ramsey defense team and private investigators and Lou Smit while they're at it!" The matter was QUICKLY dropped, for obvious reasons.

I just want everyone to know: I may vehemently disagree with Scarlett's ideas, but I have nothing against her personally. And I regret the way I worded my responses.

 

[Airasae]

I was able to find the copy I read at the library, but then ended up buying it as well. Totally worth it!

I've just found a kindle version of Foreign Faction. I'll start that tonight. Need to get my hands in the same for Steve Thomas' book.

 

[Airasae]

Really? I have it on my kindle. You can get the kindle edition for $7.99 on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/JonBenet-Ins...3464701&sr=8-1&keywords=steve+thomas+jonbenet

I'm in Australia, when I follow your link it doesn't have kindle as an option.

 

[Airasae]

That's my understanding of it. I've never seen any sources saying it was a partial page.
From Steve Thomas's book:

This is from Kolar's book. Thomas had the same info but I already had this handy:

And just because it pertains to the practice note, I came across this while looking for the rest of the info. Pam Griffin is going to be interviewed in the Investigation Discovery special, I wonder if they'll ask her about this. Also from Thomas:

It just occurred to me that the "listen carefully!" Could have been dictated after practice notes were written out of frustration that the writer was making mistakes.

 

[PositiveLight]

Interesting question. When I thought that the wine cellar was actually a wine cellar holding a wine collection, I assumed that the latch may have been there to keep the kids out but it turned out that the room was just used to store miscellaneous junk. Still maybe it was to keep the kids out of the junk. When French tried to open the door, he couldn't (didn't see the latch), FW had no problem opening the door - latch was not down and JR had to move the latch before he opened the door to find JBR.
Now who would even know about the latch? The people who lived there or worked there.

Woah wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong and I very well may be, but if the intruder supposedly left through the window in the wine/ crime room, then who latched the doors from the outside of that door? (this is the first I've heard about latches on a door! just wow!) Are we supposed to believe the killer climbed out of the window then came back into the house to lock the door so the body couldn't be found? :thinking:

Also for me was everything about the ransom note. The language used, no fingerprints, the place it was left, the similarities to PR handwriting, the length, the practice note, the way the parents handled the note, the absence of worry when the time came and went, the change of tone from very direct and "proper" language to the silly threatening talk directed at John, the small amount of ransom money considering their perceived wealth, the whole thing stinking of a "murder she wrote" episode.
SO STAGED. Like the parents were in a play and each had their role. I'm sorry but if someone threatened the life of my child I would make sure my other child was safely tucked under my wings, and I dang sure wouldn't let the LE have a very visual presence at the home! Nor would I let even friends into my house! Plus I would need to be highly medicated to even be reasonably calm. I would be flipping my lid and be completely insane when the time for the ransom came and went. My makeup wouldn't be on because of crying and hysteria (not that I believe she ever took her makeup off to begin with). They didn't ever act like the note even scared them a little or take the threat seriously.
The fibers everywhere they shouldn't have been.
The sophisticated strangulation method. It would have been quicker to choke her manually. What did the perp supposedly do? Ask JBR to wait a few minutes while they fashioned the choking method? (has there been a link to the cord used to anything similar within the home?)
The obvious signs of chronic sexual abuse.
The fact that no one woke up to anything going on. I'm always aware of sounds in my home that are out of the norm and will wake up immediately if I hear even the faintest odd sound. Stairs tend to squeak, Being an adult I'd know immediately THAT AIN'T SANTA COMING UP THOSE STAIRS! Maybe it's just me but I just wake up when some sound is not normal in my home. Immediately, Am I alone here?
The pineapple situation.
The over kill.
The covering of the body and redressing.
The fact that ransom situations seldom involve sexual crimes such as this. (I could be wrong on this but IMHO it doesn't go together.)
The fact that the supposed group has never been recognized as even remotely real.
No similar crimes ever occurred.
The parents not beating down every door to find the killer of their child.
The lock down on being interviewed and immediately wanting to be ruled out so they could find the real killer.
The way BR was treated during the whole immediate situation. (Again my living child would be directly under me and never out of my sight even for a minute.
Letting so many people into the home while the investigation was going on. I WOULD NOT want anyone even near me if they weren't involved in the investigation. I wouldn't have time to entertain anyone or anything that didn't involve finding my child immediately.
The lack of support PR and JR was giving each other in such a time of need.
The perfect attire they had on.
Seriously it all stinks of a staged and stupid lifetime movie.
So many holes in their case that it looks like an old dartboard from a dingy bar.
I could go on and on. They quickly circled the wagons with a legal team and never really was interested in finding her killer. THAT drives me insane.

 

[Airasae]

Woah wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong and I very well may be, but if the intruder supposedly left through the window in the wine/ crime room, then who latched the doors from the outside of that door? (this is the first I've heard about latches on a door! just wow

The alleged entry/exit point is the room outside the wine cellar room. So the "intruder" left JBR in the wine cellar, closed and latched the wine cellar door and then exited the basement window.

 

[Airasae]

Latched (French)
Unlatched (White)
Latched (Ramsey)

Who unlatched it between French and White?
Who latched it between White and Ramsey?

 

[BBB167893]

Woah wait a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong and I very well may be, but if the intruder supposedly left through the window in the wine/ crime room, then who latched the doors from the outside of that door? (this is the first I've heard about latches on a door! just wow!) Are we supposed to believe the killer climbed out of the window then came back into the house to lock the door so the body couldn't be found? :thinking:

Well, I'm confused now. Was the window room latched or was the room with her body latched?

Also for me was everything about the ransom note. The language used, no fingerprints, the place it was left, the similarities to PR handwriting, the length, the practice note, the way the parents handled the note, the absence of worry when the time came and went, the change of tone from very direct and "proper" language to the silly threatening talk directed at John, the small amount of ransom money considering their perceived wealth, the whole thing stinking of a "murder she wrote" episode.
SO STAGED. Like the parents were in a play and each had their role. I'm sorry but if someone threatened the life of my child I would make sure my other child was safely tucked under my wings, and I dang sure wouldn't let the LE have a very visual presence at the home! Nor would I let even friends into my house!

Agreed, 100%

There was something else, too. People have probably noticed it by now, but it struck me: the letter starts out with "we" all the time. But the person switches to "I" when talking about the call "tomorrow." Could be a slip!

Plus I would need to be highly medicated to even be reasonably calm. I would be flipping my lid and be completely insane when the time for the ransom came and went. My makeup wouldn't be on because of crying and hysteria (not that I believe she ever took her makeup off to begin with). They didn't ever act like the note even scared them a little or take the threat seriously.

Patsy was medicated most times I saw her. Probably just to keep stable. Agree with the rest.

The fibers everywhere they shouldn't have been.

Yeah, how are their fibers supposed to be on things they never owned?

The sophisticated strangulation method. It would have been quicker to choke her manually. What did the perp supposedly do? Ask JBR to wait a few minutes while they fashioned the choking method? (has there been a link to the cord used to anything similar within the home?)

No kidding. You're trying to tell me that she'd just stay there quiet while that was done. And no, no link that I know of.

The obvious signs of chronic sexual abuse.

You're not kidding. No hymen left and a spot that had been repeatedly rubbed to where the tissue was worn off.

The fact that no one woke up to anything going on. I'm always aware of sounds in my home that are out of the norm and will wake up immediately if I hear even the faintest odd sound. Stairs tend to squeak, Being an adult I'd know immediately THAT AIN'T SANTA COMING UP THOSE STAIRS! Maybe it's just me but I just wake up when some sound is not normal in my home. Immediately, Am I alone here?

No, you aren't. Those spiral stairs made a racket the whole house could hear.

The pineapple situation.
The over kill.
The covering of the body and redressing.
The fact that ransom situations seldom involve sexual crimes such as this. (I could be wrong on this but IMHO it doesn't go together.)
The fact that the supposed group has never been recognized as even remotely real.
No similar crimes ever occurred.
The parents not beating down every door to find the killer of their child.
The lock down on being interviewed and immediately wanting to be ruled out so they could find the real killer.
The way BR was treated during the whole immediate situation. (Again my living child would be directly under me and never out of my sight even for a minute.
Letting so many people into the home while the investigation was going on. I WOULD NOT want anyone even near me if they weren't involved in the investigation. I wouldn't have time to entertain anyone or anything that didn't involve finding my child immediately.
The lack of support PR and JR was giving each other in such a time of need.
The perfect attire they had on.

That's what the police said, too.

Seriously it all stinks of a staged and stupid lifetime movie.

Which is exactly what we're getting in a month or so.

So many holes in their case that it looks like an old dartboard from a dingy bar.
I could go on and on. They quickly circled the wagons with a legal team and never really was interested in finding her killer. THAT drives me insane.

Boy, you came out swinging!

 

[Ambitioned]

Howdy!! I am new here and just thought I'd pop in and say hello. :smile:

The biggie for me aside from the long *advertiser censored* ransom note, etc was sending Burke away. IF there were an intruder a normal mom would keep her children right by her side.

Also turning down the case on America's Most Wanted raised a huge red flag. Most parents would do everything in their power to have it spotlighted to find the culprit. (Such as Jacob W's mom did)

Patsy's fibers on the sticky side of duct tape.

Not cooperating with the police.

I live in SC so I know some pageant moms. They're over the top just like some soccer dads. (No offense). Patsy was just narcissistic and bat **** crazy IMO. It was important to her to have the appearance of a perfect family. A vain and stressed mom going off the deep end is way more plausible than some random intruder.

 

[Ambitioned]

The fact that ransom situations seldom involve sexual crimes such as this. (I could be wrong on this but IMHO it doesn't go together.).

You're not wrong. They involve getting the child out and a short note stating for example, "We have your child and want 10m by such time tomorrow." Not this silly long 2.5 page note.

That was another red flag for me btw: the fact that neither parent commented when 10AM came.

 

[PositiveLight]

The alleged entry/exit point is the room outside the wine cellar room. So the "intruder" left JBR in the wine cellar, closed and latched the wine cellar door and then exited the basement window.

Ok thank you so much for clearing that up! I was about to say what the heck!?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Oh, PLEASE! DO NOT waste my time with that bulls**t! Do you realize what you've just said? You're accusing everyone from the FBI to the experts who worked this case right on down the line or either being taken in by some awful police conspiracy or actually being part of it. I'm not that stupid.

John Ramsey, Dec. 12, 2001, Wolf Deposition
I am talking about -- you know, we
15 know for a fact that there was a deliberate and
16 thought-out effort on the behalf of the police at
17 the direction of the FBI to publicly assassinate
18 our character and discredit us and bring massive
19 pressure on Patsy and I in hopes that one of us
20 would confess or break and turn the other one in.

John Ramsey apparently thinks the FBI was conspiring against them, despite all his handwringing in the press about why wasn't the FBI brought in (they initially were when it was a kidnapping), the FBI could have solved the case immediately (er, in my opinion they did), the BPD screwed up not accepting their help (Koby did, but the detectives got as much help as they could from the feds, to the extent that the Ramseys refused to take FBI lie detector tests claiming they wouldn't be unbiased), etc. I about fell out of my chair the first time I heard him say that. Goodness, John Ramsey really is the most persecuted person alive.