Demand Change In Vermont Law

[becca]

I agree, but it seems that most people are so emotional on the subject that the horrific rate of prosecution and conviction for sex offenders goes in one ear and out the other.

The overwhelming majority of sex crimes against children do NOT include DNA...if you've got an adult's DNA on a child then its a virtual no brainer, though I have seen defenses where the perp will say it came from the laundry being 'mixed together' and have seen juries believe it and vote to acquit.

Expecting a child to go forward to a trusted adult in time for physical evidence to be collected is unrealistic. So, the truth is, what the prosecution has in MOST cases is the testimony of a minor witness vs. the testimony of an adult witness who is already skilled enough in manipulation to have been able to commit these crimes for some period of time. Often the mother of the child will support her husband and not her child.

The people who think these harsh laws on sex offenders are going to be a cure all must never have followed a sex crime trial. They must never have seen how the child will be called a liar and how the perpetrator will claim that the child is lying out of spite due to being disciplined. They must never have read that sexual abuses causes children to act out...to lie, to be aggressive, to fail in school...so that the very symptoms of sexual abuse will cause the child to be LESS credible to a jury.

My research shows me that there is a pretty small window..of about 7 or 8 to about 10 years old when the child is generally believed...younger than that, if there isn't DNA the child is not convincing, and older than that, the child is attacked as a wanton liar. If the child doesn't come forward until they're a teenager, forget a conviction in most cases.

THese dirtbags already refuse to confess...how in the world does anyone think that a mandatory 25 year sentence is going to get them to confess at a higher rate when they already know their chances for acquittal are better than 50/50?????????

you make valid points, but what do we do?We go to schools and talk to kids, but the parents still are an issue... they do not believe their children until its way too late.... i have been thru this and i wanted to take the mother out and slap her silly. she called her daughter every name there was. The girl was telling the truth. her abuse went on for years. The adults in her life failed her. Now how do we get over that hurdle? If the news media hasn't made it clear to these parents that the child isn't a liar how do we?

 

[Medea]

you make valid points, but what do we do?We go to schools and talk to kids, but the parents still are an issue... they do not believe their children until its way too late.... i have been thru this and i wanted to take the mother out and slap her silly. she called her daughter every name there was. The girl was telling the truth. her abuse went on for years. The adults in her life failed her. Now how do we get over that hurdle? If the news media hasn't made it clear to these parents that the child isn't a liar how do we?

I'm a big believer that we should start looking at sex crime courts where EVERYONE...the judge, the prosecutor, all of the experts have been certified as knowledgeble about sex crimes....it needs to come out of the hands of a jury and be more like juvenile and family court. That's the only way I see getting over the huge prejudices and wrong notions that the general public have about these crimes. Everyone has been told since the 1970s that a woman's sexual history is irrelevant but still in court the defense is going to get an acquittal if they can successfully paint the victim as loose....Sometimes the public takes a long time to catch up with the law and science.

I don't have any detailed knowledge on what they teach children in school about sexual abuse, though the surveys are pretty consistent from state to state on percentages of children and teens who are abused. Maybe schools need to be more aggressive in their messages about inappropriate sexual behavior as a way to get children to come forward. But, we're still faced with the cultural issues of what happens to the child in terms of her/his peers how the victim will be treated etc.

As far as mothers in name only...I doubt anything is going to change that. But, again, we forget that for most of our history children were seen as possessions...you sold your daughters for as good a dowry as you could get and your sons were for working in the family business..husbands beating wives and parents beating children was a private matter. the idea that they should have an idylic childhood free from abuse and grow up to marry for love is a very, very new concept.

I don't want to mislead people into thinking that I am soft on sex offenders, I would throw every college date rapist into jail and I would sentence every stranger rapist to at least 50 years and absent a reason to disbelieve a victim, I believe them. But, in reality, the society we live in is tough on victims of sex crimes over the age of 10 and we have a much, much bigger problem in getting victims to even report their abuse, and getting juries, families and LE to believe them...

I served on a child rape trial...10 year old girl abused by her stepfather. In my trial, the mother believed her husband over her daughter, the aunt and grandmother believed the child. And yes, we convicted him, but there were 2 holdouts because there wasn't any DNA evidence...it was all testimonial.

 

[Salem]

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=1673

I'm putting this link here, because I believe women should be held accountable for their failure to protect their children.

A snip from the article:

"We also have people that just look the other way … mostly women, that tend to become deaf, dumb and blind at the first hint that all is not well in the home …. that their son, or daughter might be a victim. These women are usually in survival mode, dependent on the male for everything, from food to drugs. They allow their children to be exposed to the vile child predator because it’s easier for them. They become so desperate for a man that nothing else matters … and your average low-life predator knows just how to seek out, find and ingratiate himself to a woman like that."

I think the bolded portion of this text is bullsh*!. In these cases, it is usually the woman who has the job, brings home the bacon, cooks it up in the pan, and deals with the boyfriend/husband's BS. Survival mode, my azz. They are just "desperate for a man"! They could take care of themselves and generally do take care of their families with very little help from the .

No more excuses for women! It is time they are taught to get their heads out and pay attention! Because we make excuses for them and let them off the hook, because after all, they are just so defenseless and can't support themselves, that so much of this this stuff continues. They are in the home, watching this stuff happen before their very eyes and they can't take action?!?

We can not continue to allow women to be "victims," we must hold them accountable. Just like "give a man a fish, he eats for one day, teach him how to fish, he eats for the rest of his life." Allow a woman to be a victim, keep her a victim for life, teach her to be accountable, she makes responsible decisions.

Sorry for the rant, I just am tired of the sorry excuses we make for women.

Salem

 

[LI_Mom]

I'm a big believer that we should start looking at sex crime courts where EVERYONE...the judge, the prosecutor, all of the experts have been certified as knowledgeble about sex crimes....it needs to come out of the hands of a jury and be more like juvenile and family court. That's the only way I see getting over the huge prejudices and wrong notions that the general public have about these crimes. Everyone has been told since the 1970s that a woman's sexual history is irrelevant but still in court the defense is going to get an acquittal if they can successfully paint the victim as loose....Sometimes the public takes a long time to catch up with the law and science.

I don't have any detailed knowledge on what they teach children in school about sexual abuse, though the surveys are pretty consistent from state to state on percentages of children and teens who are abused. Maybe schools need to be more aggressive in their messages about inappropriate sexual behavior as a way to get children to come forward. But, we're still faced with the cultural issues of what happens to the child in terms of her/his peers how the victim will be treated etc.

As far as mothers in name only...I doubt anything is going to change that. But, again, we forget that for most of our history children were seen as possessions...you sold your daughters for as good a dowry as you could get and your sons were for working in the family business..husbands beating wives and parents beating children was a private matter. the idea that they should have an idylic childhood free from abuse and grow up to marry for love is a very, very new concept.

I don't want to mislead people into thinking that I am soft on sex offenders, I would throw every college date rapist into jail and I would sentence every stranger rapist to at least 50 years and absent a reason to disbelieve a victim, I believe them. But, in reality, the society we live in is tough on victims of sex crimes over the age of 10 and we have a much, much bigger problem in getting victims to even report their abuse, and getting juries, families and LE to believe them...

I served on a child rape trial...10 year old girl abused by her stepfather. In my trial, the mother believed her husband over her daughter, the aunt and grandmother believed the child. And yes, we convicted him, but there were 2 holdouts because there wasn't any DNA evidence...it was all testimonial.

And that's exactly WHY children continue to be victims.... because society really isn't prepared to protect them.

We need to change the way we look at FAMILIES & what we will do for children WHEN their parents aren't protecting them if they come forward with stories of ABUSE.

It takes a village to raise a child sometimes will mean just that. That takes money & it takes comprehensive programs to deal with these issues.

What do we risk? Yes, there WILL be some families that are torn apart because of FALSE allegations. After thorough investigations AND intensive therapy &/or parenting classes when needed, we can determine which families can be reunited.

If we don't protect children when they DO come forward, it only sends a message to other children that there's no point in coming forward.


Oh and it also wouldn't hurt if we as a society start questioning what effect the endless parade of highly sexualized teen celebrities is having on our young children & HOW that might also be sending mixed messages to potential & known pedophiles.

If we have Miley Cyrus posing provocatively at age 15 or Britney's little sister unmarried & pregnant before she graduates high school and we bend over backwards to JUSTIFY that, how on earth will we EVER slow down the ever increasing demand for CP????

Why do parents think their kids are on MySpace on IMs having inappropriate conversations with creeps anyway? Do kids even KNOW what's inappropriate anymore? They flirt with danger & sometimes find out too late that they're in over their heads.

 

[becca]

JoAnne Thomas needs to get the facts straight.... she might have a case if she did. MJ was not convicted of raping a CHILD. He was not charged with raping Brooke and neither was RG.
I agree with you that mothers have to be held accountable. If they knowingly allow a RSO around their child then they should be accountable.
If a guy is not on the list what happens then? She doesn't know, not until her child tells her . She calls the cops and he's arrested. Do we charge her too? What happens to her children that she just tried to get out before anything worse happened than touching? Now we charge her and take the children away to where? Family? Fostercare?
I agree they are women that need to be charged but then where do we draw the line?

 

[Medea]

And that's exactly WHY children continue to be victims.... because society really isn't prepared to protect them.

We need to change the way we look at FAMILIES & what we will do for children WHEN their parents aren't protecting them if they come forward with stories of ABUSE.

It takes a village to raise a child sometimes will mean just that. That takes money & it takes comprehensive programs to deal with these issues.

What do we risk? Yes, there WILL be some families that are torn apart because of FALSE allegations. After thorough investigations AND intensive therapy &/or parenting classes when needed, we can determine which families can be reunited.

If we don't protect children when they DO come forward, it only sends a message to other children that there's no point in coming forward.


Oh and it also wouldn't hurt if we as a society start questioning what effect the endless parade of highly sexualized teen celebrities is having on our young children & HOW that might also be sending mixed messages to potential & known pedophiles.

If we have Miley Cyrus posing provocatively at age 15 or Britney's little sister unmarried & pregnant before she graduates high school and we bend over backwards to JUSTIFY that, how on earth will we EVER slow down the ever increasing demand for CP????

Why do parents think their kids are on MySpace on IMs having inappropriate conversations with creeps anyway? Do kids even KNOW what's inappropriate anymore? They flirt with danger & sometimes find out too late that they're in over their heads.

Ah, well, once you get into the full scale cultural breakdown of American society...what can you say?

I agree about the oversexualization of children, it blows my mind that parents let their children and even in some cases buy their children things that if worn on an adult would indicate they were a working girl.

My only fear about gov. intervention is that sometimes the cure--foster care--is as bad or worse than the disease. Children put into foster care have a pretty bad track record as far as turning out successful. You're taking an already troubled, vulnerable child and ripping away what ever bit of structure and affectiion, however bad or twisted, and putting them in the company of total strangers. So, I do have sympathy with the social workers who try to keep families together because they know that foster care isn't much of an answer....

It just feels to me, that for whatever reason, everybody seems to get it wrong most of the time. The cases where there are crystal clear signs of major abuse [Nizmarie, the girl in NYC], nothing happens. Other times, when we're talking about nasty neighbors or flawed paperwork...full investigations are ordered. Same with sex offenders. The real crazies keep getting released or paroled or acquitted or sent to jail for 3 or 4 years and we're spending more and more time putting the teacher in jail who had an affair with his/her 15 year old student....again, not that I condone teachers having sex with children, but I draw a very BRIGHT line between consensual but illegal sex with a teenager and sex that is forced and unwanted.

 

[LI_Mom]

JoAnne Thomas needs to get the facts straight.... she might have a case if she did. MJ was not convicted of raping a CHILD. He was not charged with raping Brooke and neither was RG.
I agree with you that mothers have to be held accountable. If they knowingly allow a RSO around their child then they should be accountable.
If a guy is not on the list what happens then? She doesn't know, not until her child tells her . She calls the cops and he's arrested. Do we charge her too? What happens to her children that she just tried to get out before anything worse happened than touching? Now we charge her and take the children away to where? Family? Fostercare?
I agree they are women that need to be charged but then where do we draw the line?

And what are the chances that AR ever told Denise that MJ touched her? So many young children are afraid to tell.

And by the time she was a teenager & Denise saw signs that made her wonder, I'm sure AR swore up & down that her mother was wrong & that MJ would never touch her. And probably called her mother disgusting & crazy for even thinking he would do something like that.

 

[becca]

And what are the chances that AR ever told Denise that MJ touched her? So many young children are afraid to tell.

And by the time she was a teenager & Denise saw signs that made her wonder, I'm sure AR swore up & down that her mother was wrong & that MJ would never touch her. And probably called her mother disgusting & crazy for even thinking he would do something like that.

In the grand scheme of things Denise should NEVER have brought a SO into her home. That right there is a punishable offense in my book. She set her young daughter up. I do not care to hear her excuses he's a changed man. he loves us. he'd never harm anyone...
he already did... more than once.
As for AR no daughter should have been in that position in the first place. First sign of trouble you don't confront the child, you go outside the home for help. If she didn't and stayed with him then she's just as responsible as he is.

 

[LI_Mom]

Ah, well, once you get into the full scale cultural breakdown of American society...what can you say?

I agree about the oversexualization of children, it blows my mind that parents let their children and even in some cases buy their children things that if worn on an adult would indicate they were a working girl.

My only fear about gov. intervention is that sometimes the cure--foster care--is as bad or worse than the disease. Children put into foster care have a pretty bad track record as far as turning out successful. You're taking an already troubled, vulnerable child and ripping away what ever bit of structure and affectiion, however bad or twisted, and putting them in the company of total strangers. So, I do have sympathy with the social workers who try to keep families together because they know that foster care isn't much of an answer....

It just feels to me, that for whatever reason, everybody seems to get it wrong most of the time. The cases where there are crystal clear signs of major abuse [Nizmarie, the girl in NYC], nothing happens. Other times, when we're talking about nasty neighbors or flawed paperwork...full investigations are ordered. Same with sex offenders. The real crazies keep getting released or paroled or acquitted or sent to jail for 3 or 4 years and we're spending more and more time putting the teacher in jail who had an affair with his/her 15 year old student....again, not that I condone teachers having sex with children, but I draw a very BRIGHT line between consensual but illegal sex with a teenager and sex that is forced and unwanted.

Yep, there's no perfect answer. Foster care can be a horror & frankly, it's just NOT cost effective to institute plans that might make a difference in saving families.

I agree, we must be careful about going overboard adding the 'wrong' people to a SO list. That will only overwork a system that is already terribly broken AND it dilutes the very purpose of having a SO list.

We just seem to be losing our good judgment these days.... we fight gun violence & end up expelling 7 years olds if they draw a picture of a gun. We fight sexual abuse & end up calling a teen boy a SO if he has sex with his own girlfriend.

Crazy world.

 

[Starr58]

In the grand scheme of things Denise should NEVER have brought a SO into her home. That right there is a punishable offense in my book. She set her young daughter up. I do not care to hear her excuses he's a changed man. he loves us. he'd never harm anyone...
he already did... more than once.
As for AR no daughter should have been in that position in the first place. First sign of trouble you don't confront the child, you go outside the home for help. If she didn't and stayed with him then she's just as responsible as he is.

The Vermont Dept. of Corrections assured Denise and Brooke that Jacques has successfully completed the Sex Offender Program . They also Allowed Jacques to reside in a home with children while on probration!!

 

[Starr58]

And what are the chances that AR ever told Denise that MJ touched her? So many young children are afraid to tell.

And by the time she was a teenager & Denise saw signs that made her wonder, I'm sure AR swore up & down that her mother was wrong & that MJ would never touch her. And probably called her mother disgusting & crazy for even thinking he would do something like that.

According to the affadavitt Denise found evidence of MJ & AR having sexual encounters. With that evidence I would not be wondering

 

[Medea]

The Vermont Dept. of Corrections assured Denise and Brooke that Jacques has successfully completed the Sex Offender Program . They also Allowed Jacques to reside in a home with children while on probration!!

Sorry, the fault lies with Denice and nobody else. She knew for a fact that Jacques pled guilty to aggravated rape and kidnapping. I wouldn't need the government to tell me that this man was not husband material, whether or not he completed any sex offender treatment, and should certainly not be allowed around any female children. She also most probably knew, having all lived in the same area, of his earlier sex charge of molesting his younger relative....

I mean, what did she think? The guy's just unlucky and keeps getting accused of sex crimes by lying females?

It is bad enough when women ignore the warning signs or don't believe their own children, when you marry a known sex offender with one conviction and another arrest for sex crimes then that is on you, not the state.

 

[Starr58]

Sorry, the fault lies with Denice and nobody else. She knew for a fact that Jacques pled guilty to aggravated rape and kidnapping. I wouldn't need the government to tell me that this man was not husband material, whether or not he completed any sex offender treatment, and should certainly not be allowed around any female children. She also most probably knew, having all lived in the same area, of his earlier sex charge of molesting his younger relative....

I mean, what did she think? The guy's just unlucky and keeps getting accused of sex crimes by lying females?

It is bad enough when women ignore the warning signs or don't believe their own children, when you marry a known sex offender with one conviction and another arrest for sex crimes then that is on you, not the state.

as there is more than one solution to a problem, there are usually many many people involved in NOT protecting a child. The state is just one of many that failed to protect in this case.

 

[becca]

Sorry, the fault lies with Denice and nobody else. She knew for a fact that Jacques pled guilty to aggravated rape and kidnapping. I wouldn't need the government to tell me that this man was not husband material, whether or not he completed any sex offender treatment, and should certainly not be allowed around any female children. She also most probably knew, having all lived in the same area, of his earlier sex charge of molesting his younger relative....

I mean, what did she think? The guy's just unlucky and keeps getting accused of sex crimes by lying females?

It is bad enough when women ignore the warning signs or don't believe their own children, when you marry a known sex offender with one conviction and another arrest for sex crimes then that is on you, not the state.

She had a choice and made a bad one that children are paying for. She knew what he was.... is she not aware that these guys do not change? Stupidity is not a defense.
I don't care if the state says he's cured... since its not a disease how can it be cured? Its a mental defect. It never gets fixed.

 

[Medea]

as there is more than one solution to a problem, there are usually many many people involved in NOT protecting a child. The state is just one of many that failed to protect in this case.

Yes and no. When 'everybody' is accountable the usual result is that nobody is accountable.

The original sentencing judge is accountable for suspending all but 6 years of Jacques sentence on a crime like aggravated and rape and kidnapping.

The probation officer is accountable for having been 100% snowed by Jacques and touting him as a success.

The judge who vacated his probation is responsible for ending his probation, but to be fair, this is what the Dept. of Corrections told her and his probation wasn't stopping him from molesting AR anyway.

Denise is accountable for staying with a convicted rapist.

In the scheme of things if we are talking about protecting AR from a sexual predator, then I have to put 90% of the responsibility on Denise. Protecting her daughter is her primary responsibility. Having a twice accused, once convicted rapist in the house with your daughters is no different than playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun.

 

[bdmama]

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=8706350

This is absolutely horrible! The man admits to molesting over 100 kids and only gets 10 years.....Way to go Vermont

 

[Starr58]

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=8710539

Montpelier, Vermont - July 21, 2008

Gov. Jim Douglas says he will not call a special legislative session to look at sex offender laws after legislative leaders refused to agree to his package of laws.

Douglas, R-Vermont, met Monday afternoon with Gaye Symington, D-Vt. House Speaker, Sen. Peter Shumlin, D-President Pro Tem, and a handful of legislative leaders in a closed-door session.

Douglas wants lawmakers to agree to a three-part package of civil confinement, an enhanced sex offender registry, and Jessica's law, before he calls a special session. But lawmakers say there needs to be a broader look into what went wrong in the case of Brooke Bennett's alleged abductor before they rush into passing new laws.

 

[Starr58]

Chittenden County, Vermont - July 21, 2008

Chittenden County authorities are looking for 21 convicted sex offenders.

Police say the annual check of the county's 307 registered sex offenders revealed that 26 have moved without notifying the registry as required by law. Five have already been found and arrested. Police are getting warrants to go after the others.

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=8710454

 

[fran]

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=8706350

This is absolutely horrible! The man admits to molesting over 100 kids and only gets 10 years.....Way to go Vermont

I've read that the majority of child molesters, at the time of arrest, have usually already had as many as 100 victims.

I also read, that only about 10% of child molesters get away without being caught. But this 10% does the majority of the damage, ie meaning more victims etc.

Sad, but true.

FWIW
fran

 

[BBB167893]

Folks, may I say something?

This terrible crime took place in a state I've been proud to call home for my entire life. And every time something like this happens, we become a laughing stock, and I'm sick of it! I'm sick of our do-nothing politicians.

Well, I'm sick of being sick of it! Someone's got to light a fire under them, and I'm just the man to do it.