Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[UKGuy]

Here's the picture. I screenshot it because I can NOT find the original they used. Maybe someone has caught the blunder and the picture disappeared?

I want to examine the original picture to see if that is IN FACT glass on top of it. If it is... it blows everything out of the water. He tells on himself in his own deposition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5Ll3sLFs8&feature=youtu.be
go to 7:22 when he starts explaining how he found JBR.
See what you think? Does it make sense? Do you think its glass on top of the suitcase?
JMOO:thinking:
edit for clarity:
He may have also been trying to make two people witness the fact the window had been broken months earlier possibly. He was adamant in the deposition to tell this. To make sure they knew the window was broken maybe months earlier.... why didn't anyone ask how he broke the dang thing??? I think THAT is very important!

PositiveLight,
Nice observation. From memory Fleet White placed the suitcase under the window and he picked up the glass from the floor and placed it onto the suitcase.

JR never knew this just as he never knew Fleet White had looked into the wine-cellar earlier that morning, making JonBenet's visible appearance quite suspect?

.

 

[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
Nice observation. From memory Fleet White placed the suitcase under the window and he picked up the glass from the floor and placed it onto the suitcase.

JR never knew this just as he never knew Fleet White had looked into the wine-cellar earlier that morning, making JonBenet's visible appearance quite suspect?

.

What the heck!?! EVERYTHING keeps pointing to something being fishy! Now if this is true.... FW is in on it also! Why would anyone move a suitcase and move glass both possible evidence!!!! These guys weren't dumb! They knew it was a crime scene! Don't TOUCH anything! If I'm not mistaken that was LA instructions too!

 

[jillyr1059]

It wasn't a crime scene to someone who had been in and out of there all night setting it up...


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[jillyr1059]

One of the things we learned last night on the A&E special comes from one of the ranking BPD officers who stated that when he walked into the room, the first thing he saw was PR craddling the child in her arms and rocking back and forth. This is much different from PR's version where she threw herself on JBR's body and laid down with her, cheek to cheek.

Did JR intentionally contaminate the scene? Well, he moved the body when he was told not to touch anything. He handled the basement window when he was told not to touch anything. He removed the tape and attempted to remove the cording when he was told not to touch anything and then threw a blanket/throw over the body when he was told not to touch anything. I could understand the panic and wanting to remove one's child from the wine cellar but when viewed with the fact that when French tried to open that door, it wouldn't open because of the top latch, when FW looked in hours later, the latch was not a problem but was again in the down position when JR looked in that final time plus the fact that JR saw her immediately when he opened the door but FW did not and FW knows the body had been moved into its final position, I am of the opinion that JR knew where she was and moved her when it appeared that no one would find her only to 'find' her again later.

No one in the IDI family can explain the ransom note in PR's handwriting, using her peculiar language skills.

And no one can explain the lack of footprints in the fresh snow/frost. The photos Smit used were taken hours after the first officers arrived and the fact that the frost had melted from the paved pathways by then does not prove that there was no snow/frost on those surfaces at 6am.

Didn't the house have heated sidewalks ?


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[UKGuy]

What the heck!?! EVERYTHING keeps pointing to something being fishy! Now if this is true.... FW is in on it also! Why would anyone move a suitcase and move glass both possible evidence!!!! These guys weren't dumb! They knew it was a crime scene! Don't TOUCH anything! If I'm not mistaken that was LA instructions too!

PositiveLight,
I know, the case looks straightforward until you read about the details. FW touching stuff was early on in the case before LA issued her instructions and at this point JonBenet was missing.

Its amazing the breakfast bar survived telling us about the pineapple snack.

.

 

[PositiveLight]

It just infuriates me that so many things weren't handled properly. :gaah:She should have been found immediately if they had searched the property when they arrived.
I think if it had been done properly they would have been arrested that evening. I don't think JR killed JBR. I think either PR or BR did it. JR just helped cover it up. Not wanting to loose more of his family, he went along with the ruse. Either he figured it out as events unfolded and, as it was speculated, he protected what family he had left.
Maybe he recognized her handwriting and didn't have time to ask her what the heck happened before she called 911. He was in his underwear (i believe) when she screamed. He only had moments to get dressed before LE was there. BR was waking up and asking questions and JR was freaking out telling him We aren't talking to you! (overheard on the 911 call after they thought it had hung up) Maybe he thought of all the weird things BR had been doing and was possibly being treated for. He was MAD. His daughter was gone and his son maybe did it and his wife was covering for BR and it was all hitting him at once. I THINK PR purposefully distanced herself from JR so he couldn't question her during those hours. She called friends in to put even more distance between her and JR. Meanwhile JR is trying to figure out what the hell is going on. His first search he find JBR and what condition she's in and freaks out. Maybe he thinks now for SURE BR did it. Because at the time no one knew of the skull fracture just the strangulation. JR thinks it was BR and sends him away from the house. He distances himself from what he thinks is his depraved son. Maybe that is what happened...
Or maybe it was as speculated that PR did it...
I imagine JR was in his own hell and still is thinking about it during those hours. I hope he is actually. I hope he is tortured by it. I wonder if he ever got the full truth out of it.
I wonder if PR did possibly use BR as a shield and blamed him to JR. Knowing it would be an easy jump considering he had done weird stuff previously and hit JBR.
This is where I am stuck. I can see either BR or PR as guilty. I don't see JR as the actual killer.
He did cover it up after the fact and as the morning progressed. He made crucial mistakes though because PR didn't take the time to tell her husband what had happened and worked out a possible story before calling 911. He was left in the dark and had to do his own thing to try and protect his family. Maybe FW did see her body and he just didn't want to throw JR under the bus. Maybe he just let things play out. He would ask his friend later what happened.
JMOO but that's where I'm at right now.
Someone needs to re interview FW. Get to the bottom of his involvement if there was any. Work backwards and see where the evidence takes them.
Unfortunately PR can never be punished. But BR can if he is guilty. JR needs to also be punished if he covered it up.
Maybe if they offer FW a good deal he will talk. He has to know something,
again JMOO

 

[PositiveLight]

It wasn't a crime scene to someone who had been in and out of there all night setting it up...


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VERY GOOD POINT.
I also found it weird that during PR interview with detectives, she said she didn't read the ransom note..... yet on the 911 call she describes it as a ransom note and even says how it was signed..... if she didn't read it then how did she know this? Like you just said.... if you were part of the cover up then you knew what the note said... you didn't need to read it because you wrote it.

 

[PositiveLight]

Didn't the house have heated sidewalks ?


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Hmm no clue. But I still think JBR would have been very cold to the touch. Unless they had the basement heated... but still she was in a closed locked room in an area you wouldn't want heated right? The wine cellar?

I'm so glad I found this group so that the questions I've always had about all these cases could be discussed and hashed out and re examined with fresh eyes. Each person I think brings so much to the table. Extra eyes help seen what others don't or can't. Also helps to put the puzzle together working out the edges and small details that really would matter. Like a heated sidewalk! Important to know! Could this be the reason no tracks were found? Did the heated sidewalk keep the ice melted? So many more questions now! Thank you! :thinking::thinking:

 

[jillyr1059]

VERY GOOD POINT.
I also found it weird that during PR interview with detectives, she said she didn't read the ransom note..... yet on the 911 call she describes it as a ransom note and even says how it was signed..... if she didn't read it then how did she know this? Like you just said.... if you were part of the cover up then you knew what the note said... you didn't need to read it because you wrote it.

One thing that really strikes me is that none of the people in the house that night were masters at staging a crime scene. They aren't career criminals, they aren't serial killers or even spent any time in jail. So everything they know and can refer to comes from the movies and TV and books and newspapers they've been exposed to in their lifetimes.
So, while many elements appear to be done by a crazed sexually motivated predator kidnapper....there's gonna be normal things forgotten in the setting up of this scene.
Things like pineapple left out, having on the same clothes and makeup all night, a super clean flashlight and too big underwear.
If you look at the events as a whole, the answer is clear as a bell.

There's also a good reason why one person took a shower that morning and one didn't.



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[PositiveLight]

One thing that really strikes me is that none of the people in the house that night were masters at staging a crime scene. They aren't career criminals, they aren't serial killers or even spent any time in jail. So everything they know and can refer to comes from the movies and TV and books and newspapers they've been exposed to in their lifetimes.
So, while many elements appear to be done by a crazed sexually motivated predator kidnapper....there's gonna be normal things forgotten in the setting up of this scene.
Things like pineapple left out, having on the same clothes and makeup all night, a super clean flashlight and too big underwear.
If you look at the events as a whole, the answer is clear as a bell.

There's also a good reason why one person took a shower that morning and one didn't.



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You hit the nail on the head. Well said!

 

[otg]

Here's the picture. I screenshot it because I can NOT find the original they used. Maybe someone has caught the blunder and the picture disappeared?

I want to examine the original picture to see if that is IN FACT glass on top of it. If it is... it blows everything out of the water. He tells on himself in his own deposition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5Ll3sLFs8&feature=youtu.be
go to 7:22 when he starts explaining how he found JBR.
See what you think? Does it make sense? Do you think its glass on top of the suitcase?
JMOO:thinking:
edit for clarity:
He may have also been trying to make two people witness the fact the window had been broken months earlier possibly. He was adamant in the deposition to tell this. To make sure they knew the window was broken maybe months earlier.... why didn't anyone ask how he broke the dang thing??? I think THAT is very important!

Not sure if anyone has posted this picture or not (I'm just now catching up). Seems like White said that he picked up a piece of broken glass from the floor and placed it on the window sill -- but it could have been on top of the suitcase. Anyway, here is the CS photo of it with a glass pebble circled:

ETA: John didn't know that Fleet had been to the basement shortly after he arrived (and before John admitted that he had been down there after BPD arrived and before he "discovered" JonBenet's body). It wasn't until his first interview (1997) that the interviewer told him. Then in 1998, he conveniently adjusted his story to allow for Fleet's visit.

 

[otg]

(rsbm for brevity)

Someone needs to re interview FW. Get to the bottom of his involvement if there was any. Work backwards and see where the evidence takes them.
Unfortunately PR can never be punished. But BR can if he is guilty. JR needs to also be punished if he covered it up.
Maybe if they offer FW a good deal he will talk. He has to know something,
again JMOO

White talked openly (and even shared the notes he had made) with BPD more times than the Ramseys combined. That's one reason he got so frustrated with the Ramseys (because they refused to talk with investigators). Fleet was down at the station demanding they do something to find the killer the way Ramsey SHOULD have been.

As for any "punishment" for John... ♫♪"It's too late, baby, now it's too late."♫ (Carole King). The Statute of Limitations have run out on anything John might have done other than Murder. If John didn't commit the act that caused her death or isn't an accomplice before the fact, he's in the clear for the rest of his life (and you can bet he knows this).

 

[otg]

I've never heard anything about heated sidewalks. I think what some of you may have heard is that there was no accumulated snow or ice on the sidewalks when photos were taken. But that could because the sun had heated the concrete enough to melt anything that might have been there. The responding officer who wrote in his report that he saw no signs of footprints when he arrived (before photos were taken) didn't say whether there was snow, or ice, or even frost on the sidewalks when he was there early in the morning -- just that he saw no signs of fresh footprints.

 

[PositiveLight]

Not sure if anyone has posted this picture or not (I'm just now catching up). Seems like White said that he picked up a piece of broken glass from the floor and placed it on the window sill -- but it could have been on top of the suitcase. Anyway, here is the CS photo of it with a glass pebble circled:

ETA: John didn't know that Fleet had been to the basement shortly after he arrived (and before John admitted that he had been down there after BPD arrived and before he "discovered" JonBenet's body). It wasn't until his first interview (1997) that the interviewer told him. Then in 1998, he conveniently adjusted his story to allow for Fleet's visit.

THANK YOU so much for this photo!!! Well done! This is what I needed.
The fact that FW was actually helpful with the investigation gets him off my radar. (I NEED TO SCOUR the interwebs and see everything I have missed!!!)
All the pics I have ever seen of the sidewalks there was no snow or such.... someone earlier had asked about if they were heated.... I figured maybe this was the reason they looked clean and no footprints were found only speculation on my part though. No factual info on if they are or were indeed heated.
Even the smallest detail no matter how tiny is important though so it would be good info to have.
I think it is quite telling that he changed his story after he found out about FW checking the basement. :thinking: You have me thinking more otg~

 

[otg]

April, 1997 Interview (bbm):

STEVE THOMAS: And Fleet had talked earlier about being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of the day was that?

JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o'clock.

STEVE THOMAS: Was that prior to Fleet's first trip down?

JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't know he was in the basement. I didn't know that. I mean other than that trip with me.

STEVE THOMAS: And on that trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?

JOHN RAMSEY: Yep."
​

June, 1998 interview (bbm):

JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police, they probably went through the house a bit. I don't know where they went. I heard later that Fleet White claimed he went through the basement alone. I don't know if that was before or after I did alone.

LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to determine your time. If you can get that down.

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think when the first uniformed officer came, French, he very quickly said, I want all you people in the room, and then people started showing in this room, which was the solarium where he talked, is the solarium. And then some other officers came and I my impression at that time was that they did a cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed house went through the house. That had been fairly early.

MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the first one to go through the house. I went in the basement, certainly before we were getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say, and Fleet and I were talking about what we were going to say.

LOU SMIT: Would that have been before then or after?

JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before then I believe.

LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?

JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm trying to reconstruct in it my mind.


​

 

[Tadpole12]

Here's the picture. I screenshot it because I can NOT find the original they used. Maybe someone has caught the blunder and the picture disappeared?

I want to examine the original picture to see if that is IN FACT glass on top of it. If it is... it blows everything out of the water. He tells on himself in his own deposition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5Ll3sLFs8&feature=youtu.be
go to 7:22 when he starts explaining how he found JBR.
See what you think? Does it make sense? Do you think its glass on top of the suitcase?
JMOO
edit for clarity:
He may have also been trying to make two people witness the fact the window had been broken months earlier possibly. He was adamant in the deposition to tell this. To make sure they knew the window was broken maybe months earlier.... why didn't anyone ask how he broke the dang thing??? I think THAT is very important!

watching Dateline again,
in the Police Report shown
it says JR [removed] the
grate and kicked in the basement window.

 

[PositiveLight]

watching Dateline again,
in the Police Report shown
it says JR [removed] the
grate and kicked in the basement window.

When did he do that? Why?

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[jillyr1059]

When did he do that? Why?

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He locked himself out of the house ....maybe weeks before idk exactly


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[MsJosie]

Did anyone see/hear where they said no one could fit through that window the way it was? It had something having to do with the way it was opening/blocked and thatnit was in a window well (that is what I call it).

 

[OliviaG1996]

Did anyone see/hear where they said no one could fit through that window the way it was? It had something having to do with the way it was opening/blocked and thatnit was in a window well (that is what I call it).

Yep, that's from the preview of the upcoming CBS special next Sunday. Jim Clemente explains it at around 2:52:

[video=youtube;-kHtWJq99Jw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kHtWJq99Jw[/video]