Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[fr brown]

“One of the things I find very interesting is I believe John Ramsey is a controlling factor in that household, and uh, nothing would go down without John Ramsey’s approval and direction, and so I don’t think anybody did – I’ve never believe[d] Patsy Ramsey killed her, her child, because I don’t think John Ramsey would have protected her. I think he would have gotten a good lawyer for her. She would have gone to maybe a mental institution and uh, he would have gotten lots of dates. So, I just don’t believe that he would have protected his wife if she had done something. That he would protect himself or his son, very likely, and I want to point out something else that’s interesting. The note itself has the opening which is 'Listen Carefully' and no one uses that when they’re writing a note, they only say listen when you’re looking at somebody. Somebody that you’re talking to. So, I believe the note was dictated” -- Pat Brown, criminal profiler


The above makes the assumption that John was aware of events as they were occurring. It's illogical to think that both John and Patsy were involved from the start because if they had been, there would be symmetry in their "I was asleep" alibi, ie, they would both have been showered and in clean clothes when the police arrived--or, more likely, they would both have been in their pajamas. But we know that John was showered and shaved while Patsy was in yesterday's clothes and full makeup, no doubt looking like she'd been up all night. In DOI she feels compelled to explain that she didn't take a shower (even though she wanted to) because her shower was "still broken." (The second floor had 3 bathrooms. What do you bet that at least one of them had a shower?)

Handwriting evidence indicates that Patsy wrote the note. The asymmetry in John's and Patsy's early morning get-up is easily explained if Patsy simply ran out of time. (She was probably consumed with tweaking the note: the nine pages before the "practice note" are missing.) If John is already up and about and in the shower, it's too late.

So why didn't he turn her in? He must have put two and two together when he found the body. Maybe he thought she would turn around and accuse him of doing it. (And she probably would have.) Maybe he wasn't entirely sure which of them, Patsy or Burke, had killed her.

"Listen Carefully" seems to have come from the Ruthless People ransom note (as odd as that seems). The "Victory!" sign-off likely comes from a fave Patsy tv program of the same name, complete with "!" "SBTC" comes from Psalm 35 in the NIV study Bible, twin to Patsy's magical life-saving psalm, Psalm 57. This doesn't seem like dictation from a cool-headed businessman. A lot of it seems like Patsy's magical thinking, the kind that she felt cured her of cancer.

 

[southernmimi]

Agree. I've always felt Patsy and JBR were the two who collided, and JR decided to cover up and add to as well as he could. Not for a moment do I think he was protecting PR, but more likely himself. From what I've read , theirs was a highly unorganized and dysfunctional family with many secrets.

 

[UKGuy]

“One of the things I find very interesting is I believe John Ramsey is a controlling factor in that household, and uh, nothing would go down without John Ramsey’s approval and direction, and so I don’t think anybody did – I’ve never believe[d] Patsy Ramsey killed her, her child, because I don’t think John Ramsey would have protected her. I think he would have gotten a good lawyer for her. She would have gone to maybe a mental institution and uh, he would have gotten lots of dates. So, I just don’t believe that he would have protected his wife if she had done something. That he would protect himself or his son, very likely, and I want to point out something else that’s interesting. The note itself has the opening which is 'Listen Carefully' and no one uses that when they’re writing a note, they only say listen when you’re looking at somebody. Somebody that you’re talking to. So, I believe the note was dictated” -- Pat Brown, criminal profiler


The above makes the assumption that John was aware of events as they were occurring. It's illogical to think that both John and Patsy were involved from the start because if they had been, there would be symmetry in their "I was asleep" alibi, ie, they would both have been showered and in clean clothes when the police arrived--or, more likely, they would both have been in their pajamas. But we know that John was showered and shaved while Patsy was in yesterday's clothes and full makeup, no doubt looking like she'd been up all night. In DOI she feels compelled to explain that she didn't take a shower (even though she wanted to) because her shower was "still broken." (The second floor had 3 bathrooms. What do you bet that at least one of them had a shower?)

Handwriting evidence indicates that Patsy wrote the note. The asymmetry in John's and Patsy's early morning get-up is easily explained if Patsy simply ran out of time. (She was probably consumed with tweaking the note: the nine pages before the "practice note" are missing.) If John is already up and about and in the shower, it's too late.

So why didn't he turn her in? He must have put two and two together when he found the body. Maybe he thought she would turn around and accuse him of doing it. (And she probably would have.) Maybe he wasn't entirely sure which of them, Patsy or Burke, had killed her.

"Listen Carefully" seems to have come from the Ruthless People ransom note (as odd as that seems). The "Victory!" sign-off likely comes from a fave Patsy tv program of the same name, complete with "!" "SBTC" comes from Psalm 35 in the NIV study Bible, twin to Patsy's magical life-saving psalm, Psalm 57. This doesn't seem like dictation from a cool-headed businessman. A lot of it seems like Patsy's magical thinking, the kind that she felt cured her of cancer.

fr brown,

The above makes the assumption that John was aware of events as they were occurring. It's illogical to think that both John and Patsy were involved from the start because if they had been, there would be symmetry in their "I was asleep" alibi, ie, they would both have been showered and in clean clothes when the police arrived--or, more likely, they would both have been in their pajamas.

I tend to agree with your suggestion regarding the assymetry between JR and PR's disposition. Its similar to my critique of the standard PDI where Patsy sets out to stage a crime-scene, e.g. wine-cellar, and leaves more forensic evidence linking her to a unique crime-scene than that of a similar one in JonBenet's bedroom, where she would have plausible explanations for her forensic deposits found on or near to JonBenet, excluding size-12's and BR's longjohns, etc, i.e. why bother?

I think you make a really valid point, but illogicallity on its own is not enough to rule JR out, since JR got there but Patsy never might simply be down to time constraints on Patsy's behalf, e.g. too much staging, or whatever, meantime JR is busy showering away any forensic deposits on his body?

JR's postmortem behavor is not that of an ignorant observor, he offers cogent explanations for events in the basement, which he himself takes responsibility for, e.g. he moved the suitcase, he broke the window, the intruder moved the chair, latterly via Dr. Phil he took the flashlight upstairs to BR's bedroom. The point being how does a non participating JR know, after the fact, what are the correct explantions for which forensic evidence, patently he can only answer so if he knows in advance the how and the why JonBenet was killed?

For JonBenet aficionados this is known as the telepathy argument since JR has to be able to read PR's mind and anticipate all the case requirements. This is why DocG's theory can be demonstrated to be inconsistent as outlined on his blog-site solvingjonbenet!

So disregarding that later both parents stated that BR was awake during the 911 call and not sound asleep as claimed means all three remaining resident Ramsey's were colluding postmortem, and that is 100% confirmed from their own lips.

We arrive at the position JR can only behave as he does if he already knows some of what went before or whatever the agreed staging is to be, i.e. he cannot simply be ignorant !

So the bottom line is that PDI proponents have to explain why when Patsy wants to stage herself out of the case she actually buries herself under a mountain of additional unrequired forensic evidence whilst JR achieves the opposite, negating Patsy's assumed intention?

This is the force of the illogocallity you cite and its on Patsy' side probably because she is too busy staging either JR or BR out of the case?

If you like conspiracy theories then PR dressed JonBenet in the size-12's and BR's longjohns to deliberately inject BR into the case thereby weaking any case implicating JR?

.

 

[Waterdog]

Can someone clarify for me? How much time passed between the friend looking in the wine cellar and not seeing JBR and the time JR looks in the cellar and he finds her?

After so many years reading about this twisted case I think PR killed her, she wrote the note, JBR staged the scene, hence the bizarre clothing choices. JR, having, imo, zero hands on parenting of JBR...he didn't take care of her, read to her, dress, etc, and would have no clue that size 12s weren't JBRs.

What kind of PR dna was tabgked up in the garrote?

 

[fr brown]

Agree. I've always felt Patsy and JBR were the two who collided, and JR decided to cover up and add to as well as he could. Not for a moment do I think he was protecting PR, but more likely himself. From what I've read , theirs was a highly unorganized and dysfunctional family with many secrets.

I'm in accord with that except that I don't think Burke was involved.

Ofc. French's report of 12/26 1pm says that Patsy told him JonBenet was last seen wearing a red turtleneck and white long underwear. We know this turtleneck was found on the bathroom counter and JonBenet's body was found in a white top.

As we know, Patsy changed her story. That's a sign that the red turtleneck holds an important clue to what happened. JonBenet's sheets smelled strongly of urine, according to Steve Thomas Any hypothesis needs to account for this evidence.

 

[UKGuy]

Can someone clarify for me? How much time passed between the friend looking in the wine cellar and not seeing JBR and the time JR looks in the cellar and he finds her?

After so many years reading about this twisted case I think PR killed her, she wrote the note, JBR staged the scene, hence the bizarre clothing choices. JR, having, imo, zero hands on parenting of JBR...he didn't take care of her, read to her, dress, etc, and would have no clue that size 12s weren't JBRs.

What kind of PR dna was tabgked up in the garrote?

Waterdog,
The case could be PDI, nobody hasbeen to court for JonBenet's death, but if its PDI then Patsy made a mess of trying to cover up whatever she did.

On the time difference between Fleet White looking and JR finding JonBenet its approximately 7 hours or a little less if you want it down to minutes?

Here is a detaile d timeline:

~6:06 AM | Fleet White Searched Basement. Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.) Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).

~1:00 PM | John Ramsey & Fleet White Search Basement. According to Steve Thomas notes, at 13:00 PM Det. Arndt told John Ramsey to check the house from top to bottom and he immediately went to the basement door with Fleet White following. A later entry says John Ramsey led Fleet White to the basement where they first went to the train room and examined the broken window and John said he broke it a few months ago. They searched for glass on the floor and then they went to look at a broom closet and then to the wine cellar where John Ramsey found JonBenet Ramsey (Steve Thomas notes). The search warrant says John Fernie was also present during this search: "John Ramsey immediately went to the basement of the house, followed by Fleet White and John Fernie" (Byfield 1997:2). Other accounts make no mention of Fernie. "Later that afternoon, Mr. Ramsey and Mr. White together returned to the basement at the suggestion of the Boulder Police. (SMF P 32; PSMF P 32; White Dep. at 212-217; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17-20.) During this joint search of the basement, the men first examined the playroom and observed the broken window. (SMF P 33; PSMF P 33.) The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement. (SMF P 34; PSMF P 34.) Mr. Ramsey then noticed a heavy fireplace grate propped in front of a closet and Mr. White moved the grate so the closet could be searched. (SMF P 35; PSMF P 35.) Upon finding nothing unusual in the closet, the men proceeded to the wine cellar room (SMF P 36, 37; PSMF P 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.) Ramsey & Ramsey (2001:21) likewise reports only that John took Fleet White to the basement.

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[Cottonstar]

“One of the things I find very interesting is I believe John Ramsey is a controlling factor in that household, and uh, nothing would go down without John Ramsey’s approval and direction, and so I don’t think anybody did – I’ve never believe[d] Patsy Ramsey killed her, her child, because I don’t think John Ramsey would have protected her. I think he would have gotten a good lawyer for her. She would have gone to maybe a mental institution and uh, he would have gotten lots of dates. So, I just don’t believe that he would have protected his wife if she had done something. That he would protect himself or his son, very likely, and I want to point out something else that’s interesting. The note itself has the opening which is 'Listen Carefully' and no one uses that when they’re writing a note, they only say listen when you’re looking at somebody. Somebody that you’re talking to. So, I believe the note was dictated” -- Pat Brown, criminal profiler


The above makes the assumption that John was aware of events as they were occurring. It's illogical to think that both John and Patsy were involved from the start because if they had been, there would be symmetry in their "I was asleep" alibi, ie, they would both have been showered and in clean clothes when the police arrived--or, more likely, they would both have been in their pajamas. But we know that John was showered and shaved while Patsy was in yesterday's clothes and full makeup, no doubt looking like she'd been up all night. In DOI she feels compelled to explain that she didn't take a shower (even though she wanted to) because her shower was "still broken." (The second floor had 3 bathrooms. What do you bet that at least one of them had a shower?)

Handwriting evidence indicates that Patsy wrote the note. The asymmetry in John's and Patsy's early morning get-up is easily explained if Patsy simply ran out of time. (She was probably consumed with tweaking the note: the nine pages before the "practice note" are missing.) If John is already up and about and in the shower, it's too late.

So why didn't he turn her in? He must have put two and two together when he found the body. Maybe he thought she would turn around and accuse him of doing it. (And she probably would have.) Maybe he wasn't entirely sure which of them, Patsy or Burke, had killed her.

"Listen Carefully" seems to have come from the Ruthless People ransom note (as odd as that seems). The "Victory!" sign-off likely comes from a fave Patsy tv program of the same name, complete with "!" "SBTC" comes from Psalm 35 in the NIV study Bible, twin to Patsy's magical life-saving psalm, Psalm 57. This doesn't seem like dictation from a cool-headed businessman. A lot of it seems like Patsy's magical thinking, the kind that she felt cured her of cancer.

For any PDI-All to even have a genesis, you would have to ignore all of the solid behavioral evidence that I laid out in my previous post. JR’s behavior Pre-5:52am really tells a story.

You would also have to believe in these far-fetched ideas for the PDI-Alone theory to even begin.

There was rock-solid full proof evidence that Patsy Ramsey slept in and shared the same bed/bedroom on the third floor/attic room, as JR. So, you would have to engage in a high suspension of disbelief to think that JR would of slept in their bed all night without noticing Patsy being up and missing all night from their bed. No matter how you try and get by this, it’s pretty damning for any PDI-All to get off the ground and running.

You would also have to believe that Patsy Ramsey knew all the various movie lines and quotes from manly-man movies such as Dirty Harry and Speed. Even the references made from other films in the ransom note would not likely have been on the back of Patsy’s tongue. JR was a movie buff, those were his movie posters that were plastered on the walls in the basement. Patsy Ramsey was 14 years old when Dirty Harry came out, and Google didn’t exist in 1996. It’s a huge stretch of imagination to believe Patsy would or even could have included all of the movie references on her own. Quick, what is the last movie you watched for the first time? Now repeat a line in it.

JR knew Burke was awake at 5:52am, because he was right next to him barking “We’re not speaking to you”. Notice JR uses the contraction “we’re”, as in WE are. This indicates prior knowledge prior to 5:52am. Also, at that point in time sending BR back to bed to pretend to be asleep also states to JR’s pre-5:52 involvement. Think about this: In any innocent kidnapping scenario, any and all siblings would have been questioned by the parents as to what they know or saw the previous night. The fact that BR wasn’t “questioned” by neither parent, or anyone else for that matter, until 9 hours after the 911 call speaks volumes. Realistically, both parents would of had to be involved for this to have happened. JR was in control early, and after telling him to go back to bed and pretend to be asleep, he is the one that ushers Burke out of the house and prevents him from being questioned by French by telling him he was asleep the whole time and didn’t know anything. Again, this was part of JR’s plan and proof of early involvement. An oblivious JR would not have the need to speak to Burke in the tone that he did during the 911 call and would not have a need to usher BR out of the house to evade questioning from the cops.

JR not responding to the ultimate life-line in the ransom note, “If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery pickup of your daughter”. JR was pretty lackadaisical in actually gathering the money for the ransom. In fact, the money never arrived at the house. In an oblivious scenario this would have been priority number one. Calling his pilot numerous times(which he did)would have not.

Bynum and Beuf

Then you would have to overcome the biggest hurdle of all. If JDI, then Patsy ends up turning on JR, because she gets to keep his millions, gets to play the ultimate victim, and becomes famous in a good way. If PDI-Alone, JR turns like a rat, he keeps his millions, and goes on to bigger and better things-including a brand new trophy wife. The point is, there really is no realistic motive for for each parent not to turn on the other if one of them is completely innocent. It’s not realistic. The behavioral evidence says so. Both parents uniting as a one and then staying together until Patsy passed, speaks to their number one motive is/was keeping the secret that they were both involved in.

JR on CNN, Jan 1, 1996-

“Not because we're angry, but because we have got to go on”.

 

[TeaTime]

To understand why the Ramsey adults stuck together you must understand their minds. You see, THEY are the most important people to each other and their 2 person team survival is paramount to all else. JR could lie and PR would back him up. NOTHING JR could ever do would make Patsy Ramsey even consider leaving. She chose him when he had nothing but an ex-wife with 3 kids and debt and she helped him climb the ladder to a billion dollar business. Patsy was the perfect well-off Atlanta suburbanite AND Miss WV. JR wasn't letting that go either.

They were quite exceptional people, not everyone achieves what they did in a short period of time. They were also narcissists and very much in love with themselves and the idea of each other.

They would, most definitely, cover for one another. No question.

 

[fr brown]

For any PDI-All to even have a genesis, you would have to ignore all of the solid behavioral evidence that I laid out in my previous post. JR’s behavior Pre-5:52am really tells a story.

You would also have to believe in these far-fetched ideas for the PDI-Alone theory to even begin.

There was rock-solid full proof evidence that Patsy Ramsey slept in and shared the same bed/bedroom on the third floor/attic room, as JR. So, you would have to engage in a high suspension of disbelief to think that JR would of slept in their bed all night without noticing Patsy being up and missing all night from their bed. No matter how you try and get by this, it’s pretty damning for any PDI-All to get off the ground and running.

You would also have to believe that Patsy Ramsey knew all the various movie lines and quotes from manly-man movies such as Dirty Harry and Speed. Even the references made from other films in the ransom note would not likely have been on the back of Patsy’s tongue. JR was a movie buff, those were his movie posters that were plastered on the walls in the basement. Patsy Ramsey was 14 years old when Dirty Harry came out, and Google didn’t exist in 1996. It’s a huge stretch of imagination to believe Patsy would or even could have included all of the movie references on her own. Quick, what is the last movie you watched for the first time? Now repeat a line in it....

Maybe he did wake up and notice she wasn't there.

Don't see how it helps to have John be the one remembering the movie references.

That women will watch "manly man" movies with men underpins the movie industry. And they might watch the same one more than once.

Then there's the fact that movie quotes often become family catch phrases.

The inclusion of the rough outline of the ransom note in "Ruthless People" is a puzzle. There's nothing particularly memorable about "deviation of [sic] my instructions." But there it is.

(And there's nothing odd in Burke getting up if his parents are yelling at 5:50am. It doesn't mean he was up all night. It would be more suspicious if he didn't get out of bed when there's a hullabaloo.)

 

[southernmimi]

Maybe he did wake up and notice she wasn't there.

Don't see how it helps to have John be the one remembering the movie references.

That women will watch "manly man" movies with men underpins the movie industry. And they might watch the same one more than once.

Then there's the fact that movie quotes often become family catch phrases.

The inclusion of the rough outline of the ransom note in "Ruthless People" is a puzzle. There's nothing particularly memorable about "deviation of [sic] my instructions." But there it is.

(And there's nothing odd in Burke getting up if his parents are yelling at 5:50am. It doesn't mean he was up all night. It would be more suspicious if he didn't get out of bed when there's a hullabaloo.)

 

[southernmimi]

Wasn't PR in JAR's room that night to finish packing for the trip while JR went on to bed? His room was across the hall from JBR. I don't think PR ever went to bed, and eventually woke JR up to help her deal with the mess she created. Sometimes a situation is as it seems to be.

 

[UKGuy]

Wasn't PR in JAR's room that night to finish packing for the trip while JR went on to bed? His room was across the hall from JBR. I don't think PR ever went to bed, and eventually woke JR up to help her deal with the mess she created. Sometimes a situation is as it seems to be.

southernmimi,
So Patsy would know if anyone was in JonBenet's bedroom, she would hear the noise?

Why would Patsy lose it if she was already up and about, rather than in bed as per some PDI theories?

JonBenet's hair has been dressed for bed probably by Patsy, JonBenet had a pineapple snack served up by either Burke or Patsy, something so irrelevant they forgot all about it until it contradicted the Ramsey version of events.

The errors in the staging seem to be biased towards JR or BR and away from Patsy, what links her can simply represent post-mortem staging?

.

 

[Waterdog]

Wasn't PR in JAR's room that night to finish packing for the trip while JR went on to bed? His room was across the hall from JBR. I don't think PR ever went to bed, and eventually woke JR up to help her deal with the mess she created. Sometimes a situation is as it seems to be.

Occam's Razor.

 

[southernmimi]

I don't think Patsy was the power house behind the staging. She was present, but most likely handed the huge problem to JR for him to fix. She was across the hall from JBR when whatever happened occurred. I think she was very tired, probably had a bit to drink at the party, was stressed and pressured when her six year old caused more stress. I don't think it was intentional. All the drama and hoopla that followed was the intentional part.