Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~

[ColonelMustard]

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...storius-sentence/story-fnh81gzi-1227151716983
africa
Judge allows prosecutors to appeal her Oscar Pistorius sentence
DECEMBER 11, 2014

“Our argument was that he should have been convicted of murder, and then would have been sentenced to a minimum sentence of 15 years. That is of course what we would like to happen,” said the National Prosecuting Authority’s Nathi Ncube"...

Legal experts welcomed the ruling.
“I was at the National Prosecuting Authority in Johannesburg when the decision came through, and the feeling is that it was critical to get leave to appeal in order to restore faith in our ability to prosecute criminals,” said Martin Hood, a criminal lawyer based in Johannesburg.
“I think that would be the general feeling of the legal community, because we need to know that our prosecution can do its job and can do it properly.”

Seems like if Masipa really wanted to help OP out she would have found CH and sentenced him to 10 years. 10 years is what Nel said the state would accept. I still thought that was too little but sensed that if she went that far there wouldn't be an appeal.

Thoughts?

 

[Estelle]

Richard Shepherd ‏@lawlessdemon 2h2 hours ago

@CriminalLawZA do you think you'll still be part of the State's tan for the SCA
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA

@lawlessdemon Yes - depending on when it is heard, I may just need permission from the Jhb Bar Society where I will be doing my pupillage.

 

[ColonelMustard]

comments on broadcasting the sca proceedings


dianne hawker ‏@diannehawke


#oscartrial. I hope the sca proceedings are also live so that people can see how the different courts work.

Dario milo ‏@dariomilo 20h20 hours ago

@diannehawker under sca practice directive should be application to broadcast and ought in my view to be granted #televisingoscarappeal

dianne hawker ‏@diannehawker 20h20 hours ago

you mean a broadcast from the sca? Yes it has. More than once. @bulelwamak @dariomilo


eskomlegacy ‏@comradefreedom 20h20 hours ago

@dariomilo @diannehawker i think as many cases as possible should be televised to assist public to understand how justice system works

https://twitter.com/diannehawker/status/542605359568158720


dianne hawker
@diannehawker

multimedia journalist @encanews online. Love working with words and visuals. Love rock music, books, life. Travel, people.

Johannesburg · enca.com

woo-hooooooooo!

 

[Estelle]

Seems like if Masipa really wanted to help OP out she would have found CH and sentenced him to 10 years. 10 years is what Nel said the state would accept. I still thought that was too little but sensed that if she went that far there wouldn't be an appeal.

Thoughts?

I'm not so sure that would have been the case as the State wanted a murder conviction.

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA

It impugns law that State cannot appeal where accused convicted only on a competent verdict due to an error of law (Seekoei 1982 AD). 5/5

I think James Grant would have still stepped in and advised the State that errors in law were made and that they should appeal. It seemed at first that Seekoei was a potential hurdle but Grant thought it through and saw it as an opportunity to change the law.


James Grant @CriminalLawZA · 22h 22 hours ago

Whooohooo, legal history in the making, a lethal blow to that lumbering and lost Hippo (Seekoei)!

On the other hand, I think OP could have appealed then if he had been given a 10 year sentence.

 

[Estelle]

Andries V D Merwe ‏@AndriesKbly 55m55 minutes ago

@CriminalLawZA This case seem to be a personal issue or someone ego got hurt. What about Visagie, Divani. Jub Jub, and other murderers
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA

@AndriesKbly So I cannot focus on one important case at a time - esp one with potential for massively corrective implications for all?
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites
4:50 PM - 11 Dec 2014
Tweet text
Reply to @CriminalLawZA @AndriesKbly

Andries V D Merwe ‏@AndriesKbly 13m13 minutes ago

@CriminalLawZA you can focus on what you want, but sure the coverage us good??There is 1000 of other murderers out side of jail. Do the same

https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA/status/542919208024428545

 

[JudgeJudi]

Seems like if Masipa really wanted to help OP out she would have found CH and sentenced him to 10 years. 10 years is what Nel said the state would accept. I still thought that was too little but sensed that if she went that far there wouldn't be an appeal.

Thoughts?

But even then he'd be eligible to apply for parole after 5. I think he deserves to be in prison for a minimum of 10.

 

[Nonnie]

I wonder whether by dismissing the appeal of sentence and the ammo charge Masipa:

1. Was trying to save face.
2. Was being obstinate.
3. Was, as someone above suggested, still "confused" about a few things (...everything).
4. Other?

All of the above.

 

[Mr Fossil]

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 3h3 hours ago
In the absence of an appeal against sentence, if SCA finds murder, the case has to be sent back to High Court for new sentence. 1/
James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 3h3 hours ago
But if appeal against sentence is allowed & pending, & SCA finds murder was committed, it can impose new sentence. 2/2

In the first case, does this mean Masipa decides the sentence?

 

[Estelle]

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 3h3 hours ago
In the absence of an appeal against sentence, if SCA finds murder, the case has to be sent back to High Court for new sentence. 1/
James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 3h3 hours ago
But if appeal against sentence is allowed & pending, & SCA finds murder was committed, it can impose new sentence. 2/2

In the first case, does this mean Masipa decides the sentence?

IMO I do not think the same High Court Judge would be given that task. Surely it would be a different Judge. That is why the NPA should lodge an appeal against the sentence and illegal ammunition possession immediately so they can be handled at the same time.

 

[Estelle]

But even then he'd be eligible to apply for parole after 5. I think he deserves to be in prison for a minimum of 10.

So would mean a sentence of at least 20 years?

 

[Estelle]

Pistorius “Loses It” After Finding Out Appeal Bid Successful

According to the report, a prisoner at the Kgosi Mampuru II prison in Pretoria, where Pistorius is serving a five-year sentence for the death of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, said the paralympian lost his cool:

“He was listening to it [Judge Thokozile Masipa's ruling] on the radio. He got up and stomped. He went straight to the gym. He started lifting weights like it was going out of fashion. He is p***ed off,” the prisoner told the publication.

“Who wouldn’t be? He was definitely expecting to be out by August.”

The prisoner told The Times Pistorius could barely console himself to the fact that he will spend Christmas and New Year’s in prison, instead of “jolling with family and friends.”

“It’s about time he realised that this is the real world of crime,” he said.

http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/201...ul/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[jay-jay]

Pistorius “Loses It” After Finding Out Appeal Bid Successful

According to the report, a prisoner at the Kgosi Mampuru II prison in Pretoria, where Pistorius is serving a five-year sentence for the death of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, said the paralympian lost his cool:

“He was listening to it [Judge Thokozile Masipa's ruling] on the radio. He got up and stomped. He went straight to the gym. He started lifting weights like it was going out of fashion. He is p***ed off,” the prisoner told the publication.

“Who wouldn’t be? He was definitely expecting to be out by August.”

The prisoner told The Times Pistorius could barely console himself to the fact that he will spend Christmas and New Year’s in prison, instead of “jolling with family and friends.”

“It’s about time he realised that this is the real world of crime,” he said.

http://www.sabreakingnews.co.za/201...ul/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

LOL .. oh, poor Oscar .. he really thought he would get away with saying it was an intruder instead of intentionally killing Reeva .. silly idiot didn't realise that is still murder, and he admitted to it by telling everyone at the scene of the crime 'I shot Reeva .. I thought she was an intruder' .. he unwittingly admitted to murder right there and then!

 

[Estelle]

Experts say the appeal may even overtake Pistorius’s possible release around next August or September, after he has served a 10-month stint in jail.

National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) spokesman Nathi Mncube said it was in the interest of Pistorius and the State to ensure the matter was expedited, but it was not up to the NPA as to how long it would take. “We are not going to put pressure on them to do what we want,” he said.

Senior advocate and criminal law expert Johann Engelbrecht is of the opinion that the process would take about nine months to be concluded.

Engelbrecht said while he too could not see the State succeeding with its appeal, but Pistorius could face a 15-year jail term (if no mitigating circumstances were found) if his culpable homicide conviction were changed to a finding of murder. But the issue was now in the hands of the appeal court.

Pretoria lawyer Konrad Rontgen agreed with this time estimate.

“Due to the appeal court’s roll being so congested, I don’t foresee this appeal being heard before the last court term for next year (around October/November).

“By implication, this may have the effect that Pistorius might already have been released by the time judgment is handed down.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/bleak-christmas-ahead-for-oscar-1.1793982#.VIlQGsn3GrE

 

[Estelle]

Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal justice expert at the University of Pretoria, is of the opinion that the State has a bleak chance of winning the appeal against the murder acquittal.

“I don’t think anything in Pistorius’s life is going to change after this appeal. I think the appeal court will simply confirm the judgment as it stands.”

There was a fine line between a guilty finding in accordance with the doctrine of dolus eventualis and negligence (culpable homicide).

“Even if the State’s appeal succeeded, I don’t think it would make a difference to Pistorius’s sentence.”

A five-year jail term, serving 10 months before being released on correctional supervision, was a far harsher sentence than a straight five-year jail term, she said.

As things now stand, Pistorius would be under strict supervision by Correctional Services officials when he was released for the remainder of his sentence - about four years. If he were jailed for a straight five years, he would serve half his term and then be freed on parole, meaning less harsh conditions.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/bleak-christmas-ahead-for-oscar-1.1793982#.VIlQGsn3GrE

I doubt that Professor James Grant would agree with that.

 

[L2L]

And there I was all buoyed up with the good news of leave to appeal Masipa's verdict and then I read the article posted by Estelle and immediately I'm deflated! I wish Prof Grant, or anyone, would reply and restore my failing hopes! And how would correctional supervision in Uncle's mansion be harsher than serving time in prison?

 

[mister happy]

Don't despair too much L2J. But don't get your hopes way up either. My main concern right now is the possibility that this joker will be out on bail again.

 

[Estelle]

Reeva Steenkamp's mother, June Steenkamp, forgives Oscar Pistorius but does not believe his story 11 Dec 2014, 7:22pm

Reeva Steenkamp's mother says she has forgiven Oscar Pistorius but does not believe his story about what happened on the night her daughter was killed.

"I've forgiven him, but I will never forget the way he killed my daughter," she said.

"She must have been petrified. She was in a small, little cubicle. She couldn't move to get away from those bullets."

Ms Steenkamp said Pistorius had used black talon ammunition, which explodes in the body.

"She could never have lived through that, or any other person that he thought was in there," she said.

"Even if he thought it was a burglar, they would also have been dead. It was still a killing."

Ms Steenkamp said she would also be paying back the money Pistorius gave her in the wake of Reeva's death.

"All that money is going back to him in any case. I decided every single cent is going to go back to him," she said. "My lawyers are busy with that right now. That money is going back. I refused three amounts. "I said I don't want that money. I don't want blood money. My daughter was priceless. When we were destitute we didn't have an alternative," she said.

You can watch the full interview with June Steenkamp on tonight's 7.30 program on ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-11/reeva-steenkamps-mother-has-forgiven-oscar-pistorius/5961720

I hope it has been recorded as we have missed it.

Here is the link:

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s4147224.htm

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

I would expect there to be differing opinion from legal experts. It is how the judicial system works. Some think there is no chance an appeal can win, and they are entitled to their opinion.

There are other legal experts, who feel that an appeal can win and that some form of Justice for a woman who had her life taken by a man from a very wealthy family, will prevail.

I know the outcome I'm backing and just like half the experts, I am going to be wrong.

:jail:

 

[L2L]

I thought I'd read somewhere that this killer (can't bring myself to use his name anymore) couldn't get out of prison until after the appeal was heard? I'm either day dreaming or going dippy!

 

[Estelle]

To laypeople, there’s something a bit strange about the appeal process: the fact that the same judge who initially ruled on a legal matter is then asked for permission to let another court consider whether she got it wrong.

Opinion before Tuesday’s hearing seemed to be that it would be extremely unlikely for Judge Masipa not to grant permission for the matter to proceed to the SCA, given the controversy around her ruling in October and the amount of ambiguity surrounding the legal concept of dolus eventualis.

But Judge Masipa has repeatedly revealed herself to be a tough nut. On Wednesday she explicitly said that she rejected the argument, put forward by state prosecutor Gerrie Nel, that the “huge public interest” in the Pistorius matter constituted special circumstances to grant leave to appeal.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ould-yet-be-convicted-of-murder/#.VIl0ncn3GrE