Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

[GR_Turner]

...this discussion used to be really interesting it's now being ruined on purpose...............

Maybe you could talk about something else then?

 

[cottonweaver]

You can hear the cogs turning in some posters brains now LOL

You misheard- that was the echoes of distant laughter!

 

[aftermath]

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/21829741

Apologies if this has been posted already- I hadn't read it before and thought it was quite an interesting look at the fear of crime in SA...

 

[cottonweaver]

Let's also throw in Callie Snyman.

Are you saying that she is worth looking up? (ie. I was joking when I threw in Kelly Phelps. No legal commentators would even bother to rebut her.)

 

[Trotterly]

You misheard- that was the echoes of distant laughter!

Didn't think that you thought mishearing was even the remotest possibility.

 

[GR_Turner]

Are you saying that she is worth looking up? (ie. I was joking when I threw in Kelly Phelps. No legal commentators would even bother to rebut her.)

Yes look him up.

 

[GR_Turner]

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/21829741

Apologies if this has been posted already- I hadn't read it before and thought it was quite an interesting look at the fear of crime in SA...

I've not read it either. It's a shame that this sort of stuff has just been forgotten in the rush to judgement. I think it's probably because the media decided it was dv pretty early on and so this perfectly plausible alternative narrative is barely mentioned.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes look him up.

I got that so far:

http://forums.tvshowsupdate.net/showthread.php?t=2010453&page=618

 

[GR_Turner]

I got that so far:

http://forums.tvshowsupdate.net/showthread.php?t=2010453&page=618

Yes, that's what came up when I googled him a moment ago too. There are other more informative places to go I'd suggest.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, that's what came up when I googled him a moment ago too. There are other more informative places to go I'd suggest.

I believe he wrote one article in Afrikaans- which at a guess neither you nor I speak.

Apparently he states that he is a prolific author but I can only find 1 book for sale. Ex. UNISA @ pretoria (!)

and apparently its insufficient for him to say that had Masipa relied on PPD her verdict would have been the same, as she didn't.

 

[cottonweaver]

Shame I was going to finish with a quote from A Pistorian tweet saying nighty - night to Oscar but I can't find it now - from some journalists anthology. It's very funny. Another time.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Boschoff. He heard a noise downstairs, went to investigate and saw and heard nothing, went back to his bedroom, got his gun and saw the door opening and shot once through the door killing his 8 year old daughter. There was no intruder or evidence of one - it was all in his head apparently. Not murder.

He probably was not heard arguing with his daughter for nearly an hour earlier that night nor did four witnesses testify to hearing his daughter screaming for her life up until the moment shots were fired.

 

[Marfa Lights]

No witnesses testified that Reeva was screaming. The only voice identified that night was OP's.

Your version has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to the exclusion of my version. It was not.

Now that's some kind of logic with a dose of willful distortion thrown in for good measure... Four witnesses testified to hearing a WOMAN screaming-- certain of it, definitely not a man. And that was before and during the final shots. Any ideas which woman that might have been?

The only voice that was "identified" that night was Oscar crying after the final shots.

Timing is everything, as they say.

 

[Marfa Lights]

What do you think Mrs VdM's evidence about hearing female crying vs OP crying demonstrated? Or that Mrs Stipp's housekeeper heard female crying at the same time as the other witnesses heard female screaming? Do you think they are lying?

No, Mrs. vdM heard Oscar crying like a woman AFTER he shot Reeva, just as the next door neighbors reported and later attempted to demonstrate in court. The fact that they heard this crying shortly after the final shots confirms it was Oscar.

I am not saying Oscar cannot cry like a woman. People's voices can get very distorted by emotion when they are crying or wailing in anguish. However, I find no reason to doubt the testimony of the four witnesses who were unwavering in their assertion that they heard a woman screaming in mortal fear before and during the final shots. The pitch and shrillness of a woman's voice when screaming in fear is much less likely to be confused with a man's voice than when either gender is crying (as in grief-stricken or in emotional pain.)

Have you ever heard a group of young girls screaming at a pool party? I don't think anyone would ever mistake that sound for young boys.

Several witnesses seemed confused about whether to describe what they heard as screaming or "crying"-- it may be a language problem, not sure. Mrs Stipps' housekeeper may well have interpreted Reeva's screams as "cries" or she had the timing wrong, I would need to revisit her testimony.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

But think about how long his actions took and then how long he took to explain them both in his main evidence and particularly under cross and in what detail. Nel wanted to know not only what happened at each point but why he did or did not do this and what was he thinking etc.

As an example if you were explaining how you got up in the night, walked down a corridor avoiding a bag you knew was on the floor your cross might go like this - 'why did you leave the bag there in the first place knowing you might trip on it? Or did you leave it there hoping that your girlfriend would trip on it? Ok, let's assume you're not lying about that for a moment, even though we know you're making all this up - so when you were walking down the corridor why didn't you trip on the bag? Ah, so you were thinking about avoiding it so you were concentrating on every little detail, that's interesting. Or did you put it there later so that you could claim that that's why you took that route along the corridor? Ah that makes sense and helps the state because....' This is exactly the kind of thing Nel did all the time. All insinuation, no evidence.

If Nel did so: Somehow you have to encourage an outrageous liar to finally give himself away, bringing his lying buildings to collapse.
My layman feeling (and probably bad English - s..t Google translation).

Btw: I also have the feeling, you and likeminded fellows are trying the same with the non-supporters: to ask questions out of 1000 perspectives until we are :scared: :scared: You aren't better than Nel or Roux. The difference is: we are not at trial and we aren't the accused and we don't lie. We -at least I - are taking account of the whole mosaik AND the evidence forming our opinion.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Boschoff. He heard a noise downstairs, went to investigate and saw and heard nothing, went back to his bedroom, got his gun and saw the door opening and shot once through the door killing his 8 year old daughter. There was no intruder or evidence of one - it was all in his head apparently. Not murder.

I don't know the case. If this man had shot his wife and not his little daughter - would one have to prove much more intensive? Yes, IMO, absolutely!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

....well i'm sorry to hear that FromGermany has quit hopefully those amongst us can convince her to come back i'm sure she's watching .......as for "give over" i took it off as i didn't want to upset the the gang of three......

Nobody has to convince me to stay, dear WSers! I will voluntarily and willingly stay. Not always I'm able to understand 100% plus not always I have the knowledge, but that doesn't stop me.

 

[aftermath]

If Nel did so: Somehow you have to encourage an outrageous liar to finally give himself away, bringing his lying buildings to collapse.
My layman feeling (and probably bad English - s..t Google translation).

Btw: I also have the feeling, you and likeminded fellows are trying the same with the non-supporters: to ask questions out of 1000 perspectives until we are :scared: :scared: You aren't better than Nel or Roux. The difference is: we are not at trial and we aren't the accused and we don't lie. We -at least I - are taking account of the whole mosaik AND the evidence forming our opinion.

I have also formed my opinion from considering everything presented in court. We just haven't interpreted that evidence/ information in the same way, hence the discussion.

 

[GR_Turner]

I don't know the case. If this man had shot his wife and not his little daughter - would one have to prove much more intensive? Yes, IMO, absolutely!

I was replying to a post about cases where there was no evidence of an intruder - ie it was all in the imagination.

BIB: Yes, but in OP's case either the state proved he meant to shoot her or they didn't in which case he meant to shoot an intruder which would make it similar to the Boschoff case.

 

[GR_Turner]

I believe he wrote one article in Afrikaans- which at a guess neither you nor I speak.

Apparently he states that he is a prolific author but I can only find 1 book for sale. Ex. UNISA @ pretoria (!)

and apparently its insufficient for him to say that had Masipa relied on PPD her verdict would have been the same, as she didn't.

Yes, I know. He's the author of one of the key legal texts that people learn the law from in essence as I understand it, the 'bible' of SA law as it's been described. Yes, it's in Africaans as was his article. I have no idea how much he followed the case either. But still his take that it was PPD is interesting.