icedtea4me
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Do you think a Stungun was used?
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icedtea4me
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This was posted on 18 June 15. Two weeks from that date will be 2 July 15. I expect for your suspect to be apprehended and charged by that date.
Not unless Mary Lacy is back as the DA.
Mama2JML
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What is your perception of Stratbucker's deposition?
Aside from Wood trying to use his connection to Air Taser to discredit him, or prevented him from answering questions fully, what does it for me is the knowledge that Lou Smit contacted Stratbucker, hoping that he would back his theory, and resumed shopping when he didn't get the desired result. To quote Stratbucker directly:
it wasn't what he wanted to hear. I guess that's why I never heard back from him.
otg
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Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, Tea. This guy has been writing this crap for years on different forums using different usernames (SD knows who he is, as do many others here). When he gets banned from each, he simply moves on to another. He knew he wouldn't last long here when he began posting.
icedtea4me
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No suspect apprehended. What a surprise.
This little girl's death was so full of errors and cover ups from the coroner to the police to the D.A. to the parents .Why so many mistakes? Why didn't police find her instead of John? They were in house, looking for clues. Why couldn't they send one uniform over to help Arndt? Why did coroner not use proper procedure on her body when first saw her? Why didn't they look for stun gun marks before giving her back for burial? Some bungling is expected, we are human and make mistakes, but to make these and many many more,there is something fishy going on. A cover up is under way, we know it. How can it be solved when all these people are standing in the way,from the parents, to the d.a. and such. It is a dirty shame, could have been solved, imo anyway, there would be no 17 years later not knowing any more than we did at the beginning, not much more anyway. They did not want it solved. The Rams did not want their name muddied,well this way it is muddied in such a way that it can never be repaired and the police and higher ups are to blame. Of course they were protecting their cub, but they needed someone to talk common sense to them. Get Burke help needed, give J.B. proper burial, end of story. No big fanfare, lost jobs, books written etc.
DeDee
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The answer is in the question. That is to say: There were so many intentional errors and oversights, that you refer to as mistakes, by the coroner, the DA [esp. Hunter], the police, the detectives and those in much higher positions. Orders came from on high to treat the Ramsey's as victims from the very first moments.
When one of the responding officers attempted to gain entry into the wine cellar, he was not able to unlock the door which was latched at the top of the threshold. While that should have seemed suspicious to a trained LEO involved in a kidnapping of a 6yof, apparently, it did not. It was LA who sent JR looking for JonBenet, or rather more precisely, traces of her missing and things that seemed askew. That fact must have been the most difficult for LA to live with, if she cared at all. Everyone involved that December day knows that JR went straight down into the basement. Oh, I almost forgot to mention that Fleet White, Jr. accompanied John.
LEO explained it as being short-handed due to the holiday as well as they were so very busy trying to set up tracers on the phone lines. Quite frankly, they were told to stand down. Several stopped by during the morning; however, none of them stayed until the Ramsey's home was secured. That didn't come until afternoon, when Patsy and John were allowed to simply walk out of their front door, wearing their CS clothes.
IMHO, Meyer could have been a part of the conspirators who was ordered to shut this crime down. He prevailed. I am one who believes there was a stun gun used in 2 places: the cheek [and used duct tape] and her back. The stun gun marks were not part of 'staging'. We have all seen the photo of JBR barefoot on the porch, in her cute red sundress, with the twin marks on her leg. We are not dealing with the All-American small town community of fine upstanding citizens as there were many who were involved in unattractive, possibly sex-related illegal, activities in, and around the area.
In this picture, of a copy of a picture, and studied via the internet, I clearly see the blue line between the twin marks.
August 13, 1997 CNN report:
- [The time of death:] "I consider estimation of time of death to be an interpretative finding rather than a factual statement, and it is not this office's practice to include this estimate as part of any autopsy report," Boulder County Coroner John Meyer said.
- Evidence of sexual assault was inconclusive, although previous information indicated she had "chronic inflammation of the vaginal wall."
- [However] She also was wearing long white underwear, and there were red stains and urine on the panties, Meyer said.
- A knotted white synthetic "ligature" (a rope or cord) was wrapped around her neck, and another piece was loosely tied around the right wrist over the sleeve of her knit shirt.
- A red-ink drawing of a heart was on the palm of her left hand, and a gold cross hung around her neck. She also was wearing an identification bracelet stamped "JonBenet 12-25-96" [Oh, the rich irony!]
- ...her arms were extended over her head. [Why were her arms tied at the wrist and extended over her head?]
*************
About the Crime Scene Photographs http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm
2000 March 27 Larry King Live
Interview with John and Patsy Ramsey
"Larry King: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?
Patsy Ramsey: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that. <SNIP>
Larry King: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?
John Ramsey: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly."
John Ramsey surely did not want the public to know the answer to that question. jmho
Finally, I leave an important question. Has anyone wondered why JR moved his software business from Atlanta, GA to Boulder, CO.? Why Boulder? I feel JR, Patsy's father or both, already had connections to someone in Boulder.
otg
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Do you really want the answers? Most of them, I think you know. But just in case anyone wonders...
But John knew where to look. BPD was looking for clues about how she was kidnapped. John knew there was no kidnapping and he knew where her dead body was.
It was the day after Christmas. Like any other job, most of the cops were home with their families. The only ones working were the ones without enough seniority to get those days off. But even considering this, do you realize just how many police had actually responded? We all hear about how Det. Arndt was left there all by her lonesome self with no backup. But heres how it actually went down:
BPD began sending policemen who were on duty as soon as the call was received. The first arrived in less than ten minutes from the time of the 911 call. As would be customary, two officers (Offcs. Rick French and Karl Veitch) were sent first to assess the situation and determine what kind of additional response was needed. After they reported in, Det. Michael Everett (BPD Lead CSI) and Det. Sgt. Tom Wickman (Supv. in charge of the crime scene) arrived. Later, as the morning progressed, Offcs Barry Weiss, Sue Barcklow, and Sgt. Paul Reichenbach came to the Ramsey house. At around 8:00 am, Reichenbach left to meet with Dets. Linda Arndt and Fred Patterson who had been called in and assigned to the case. They arrived at about 8:10 am. Sgt. Bob Whitson arrived at about 9:30 am. The phone call from the kidnappers was expected to be by 10:00 am, but of course never came. Only after there was no contact from the kidnappers by 10:30 am did the remaining (about 8 to 10?) officers, detectives, and sergeants begin leaving the residence. Arndt was left at the scene in case anything else happened before the FBI could respond. FBI Agent Ron Walker was at police headquarters getting briefed before going to the house when the call came in that a body had been found.
I dont know, but I think he was pissed (Can I use that word without getting anyone here... well... pissed?) at being called out during his Christmas holiday and then being held up before he was allowed into the house. Someone (I dont know who) had the mistaken idea that the Coroner couldnt go in to examine a dead body until a search warrant was signed by a judge. Really! (I'm not making this up.) So after being called out during his holiday, Dr. Meyer was made to wait for almost a half-hour after his arrival before he was allowed to examine the body. He spent an entire (almost) ten minutes to do everything he felt necessary to examine the dead body of the only murder victim Boulder had had for that whole year.
I offer no excuses for Meyers behavior. I think its unforgivable.
The marks had already been found, noted, and photographed during the autopsy. We dont know what (if any) testing Meyer might have done to determine if they were scrapes, bruises, or burns. We can almost assume he did none or this controversy over the stun gun wouldnt exist. Investigators DID try to hold the body for more testing, but were accused then (even from within the DAs office) of holding the body for ransom because they were trying to get interviews with the Ramseys. (Ever wonder why, if they accused investigators of holding the body for ransom to get interviews, the Ramseys would later claim that they were fully cooperating?)
Gotta ask yourself here if you believe so many people were trying to cover this up... Why? (I think you and I both know the answer to that question.)
Thats correct. Those who knew what happened did not want it solved -- or at least, they didn't want the public to know it was solved.
No one could have foreseen how this little girls death in a relatively small town would capture the attention of the world.
As for someone to talk some common sense to them: Fleet and Priscilla White each tried individually, and look what the Ramseys did to them.
Which would be better? To confess to everything and let the world know all that happened and why, or to never admit what happened and allow all the speculation to swirl? The Ramseys chose the latter.
The first two of those were done; the story continues...
:yes:
I wondered when someone would mention that. What's your take on it, DeDee?
Lets face it Dave, its two dots, one bigger than the other. Without an actual measurement any two dots will look the same. Scratched mosquito bites? Who knows?
At times it really does seem like Smit was trying to help the Ramseys doesn't it? Listen to Smit interrogate John about the Pineapple or the suitcase under of the window. He's almost saying "come on John, there has to be an explanation! Just tell me anything and I'll buy it!"
Look at the bolded part...
1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there
2 was
3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was
5 positioned?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think
7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the
8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I
9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock
11 it or close it?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little
13 latch on it.
14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am
16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I
17 think at that point I still was trying to figure
18 out how they'd get in the house.
19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your
20 (INAUDIBLE).
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember.
He catches John in a lie, he points it out, then just lets him continue.
Besides that the 'inaudible' is probably either 'alarm' or 'your brain that's trying to find an open window'... it's pretty telling that John says himself that his one focus was finding a way the intruder could get into the house. He claims to 'find' an open window, and then - his sole mission again being to find the way an intruder came in - he just walks off and keeps looking for things like, oh I don't know, open windows.
And never once does Smit go "wait a minute here". I get so frustrated reading those interviews. This is how I'd follow up.
14 ANDREWW: And you're sure of that?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am
16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I
17 think at that point I still was trying to figure
18 out how they'd get in the house.
19 ANDREWW: Well wouldn't that trigger your
20 hinkey meter?.
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.
22 ANDREWW: Did you tell anybody about that?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember.
24 ANDREWW: Why not?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that window you know, I
26 um went through it in the summer. It didn't seem unusual.
27 ANDREWW: But the suitcase, you said it shouldn't have been there. You
28 are looking for an entry point, you find a suitcase out of place, right
29 under an unlocked and open window, and you don't bother to say a word about it?
30 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't seem um to recall exactly. Maybe I... (INAUDIBLE)
DeDee
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I have never wavered on this point. I have always thought the Ramsey's had and used a stun gun.
What is so difficult for most people to understand is that we are not dealing with normal, good, red-blooded, honest Americans. Patsy's birthday party gives a clarified glimpse into what their and their closest friends' private lives were like. It is easier for folks to believe that the Ramsey's worked hard, JR built a billion dollar business, Patsy survived cancer, they took their children to church so they can't be bad people. But, they were. JMO
Does anyone remember the letters and conversations Patsy had with pastors of the mega churches? Just because one genuflects when entering the pew at church does not make one a moral Christian. Most people want to believe that something as horrible as JBRs death could never be at the hands of her "good" family. They are wrong.
This murder was about sex and sexual exploitation. Period. Burke did not commit this crime. But the same had been done to him, too. JMHO
I have researched some during the past months and haven't posted much because my 83yo Father with Dementia/Alzheimer's lives with me. Being a caretaker is extremely tiresome even for the most patient person. I hope to soon have some posts that will cast the event into a different light.
There is even some stuff about FW that people aren't going to want to read because they have been snookered by FW and his maneuverings. JMHO
DeDee,
Good luck and godspeed with your father. Its a hard, thankless job sometimes and it takes a strong person to do it.
I have a problem with the stun gun for the following reasons:
The injuries are classified as abrasions in the autopsy report. A burn would have been noticeably different.
The pictures Smit used to compare (a known stun gun mark) were of a body exhumed after six months.
The marks do not perfectly match as is claimed.
The stun gun would not knock her out. All it would do is cause an immense amount of pain. Lets say they wanted to use it as punishment. Now all you have is a completely hysterical child, which is not likely what any parent wants.
The "blue line" is just a vein. Stun guns don't leave blue marks.
The R's were off and certainly acted shady, but at the end of the day I truly believe they were mostly loving parents. There was likely some abuse in the home but the idea of using a stun gun on a child seems horrible and insane. Literally no other purpose to use it than torture.
Good luck and godspeed with your father. Its a hard, thankless job sometimes and it takes a strong person to do it.
I have a problem with the stun gun for the following reasons:
The injuries are classified as abrasions in the autopsy report. A burn would have been noticeably different.
The pictures Smit used to compare (a known stun gun mark) were of a body exhumed after six months.
The marks do not perfectly match as is claimed.
The stun gun would not knock her out. All it would do is cause an immense amount of pain. Lets say they wanted to use it as punishment. Now all you have is a completely hysterical child, which is not likely what any parent wants.
The "blue line" is just a vein. Stun guns don't leave blue marks.
The R's were off and certainly acted shady, but at the end of the day I truly believe they were mostly loving parents. There was likely some abuse in the home but the idea of using a stun gun on a child seems horrible and insane. Literally no other purpose to use it than torture.
DeDee
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Thank you, Annapurna. I never knew my dad is his youth so it's kinda neat to see him as a little boy. Dad stays in trouble just like a toddler, too!
When I saw this picture, or any of those similar to it, of a professional photo session, the one where JB wears the red sundress, I was convinced of the stun gun theory.
We know the housekeeper said Patsy would take JB into the bathroom and JB would scream out in pain. That goes with your:
There is another torturous reason to use a stun gun; by pedophiles who expect obedience and cooperation.
Patsy loved Patsy. Patsy loved spending John's money. Her children were her trophies. Objects to be shown off. There are many important people who were involved in this crime at some point or another. It's the reason it hasn't and never will be solved.
I believe both of her injuries, the head wound [accidental, hit too hard] and the [initial faux] strangulation, physically hurt her very much. The persons doing these things did not care. They wanted gratification. It was her mother would had to re-enact the crime in the basement. It could not have been an easy task for her.
Thank you for sharing your reasons that support your opposition. Nearly all RDI conclude there was no stun gun. I may stand alone in being an RDI who allowed this to happen and that a stun gun was used on this child on Christmas Day.
JMHO after studying the case for years