Does Pam Paugh Know Anything About JB's Murder?

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

The false information that Patsy was the only suspect who could not be cleared as the writer of the ransom note was started by Steve Thomas on June 1, 1998 when he delivered a warped version of the CBI's handwriting examination results to a roomfull of nationally known crime experts. The misinformation grew legs and is believed by some as fact to this day.

Here's an excerpt from the 5/17/02 deposition of expert witness Gideon Epstein in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit. Attorney Lin Wood is doing the questioning and handwriting expert Gideon Epstein is doing the answering:

Q. "And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analyses done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination."

A. (nods head)

Q. "Do you not sir?"

A. 'That's what he says."

Q. "Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination, correct?"

A. "That's what he says, yes."

Q. And from Alex Hunter's perspective, you also understand that there were other individuals under suspicion who were not eliminated, correct?'

A. "That's what I understand, yes."

Q. "Who were not eliminated as the author of the ransom note."

A. "I understand that, right."


BlueCrab

Ok and thanks for providing that. Not that I am persuaded but you did provide the basis for your information and I certainly respect that. Thanks again.

 

[Solace]

coloradokares,

The false information that Patsy was the only suspect who could not be cleared as the writer of the ransom note was started by Steve Thomas on June 1, 1998 when he delivered a warped version of the CBI's handwriting examination results to a roomfull of nationally known crime experts. The misinformation grew legs and is believed by some as fact to this day.

Here's an excerpt from the 5/17/02 deposition of expert witness Gideon Epstein in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit. Attorney Lin Wood is doing the questioning and handwriting expert Gideon Epstein is doing the answering:

Q. "And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, the sum total of the handwriting analyses done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination."

A. (nods head)

Q. "Do you not sir?"

A. 'That's what he says."

Q. "Thus, that from Alex Hunter's perspective, Patsy Ramsey was not eliminated by the experts chosen by the district attorney, but she was close to elimination, correct?"

A. "That's what he says, yes."

Q. And from Alex Hunter's perspective, you also understand that there were other individuals under suspicion who were not eliminated, correct?'

A. "That's what I understand, yes."

Q. "Who were not eliminated as the author of the ransom note."

A. "I understand that, right."


BlueCrab

BlueCrab. Thank you for posting that.

"And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, (surely you are kiddiing about this) the sum total of the handwriting analyses done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. Lin is probably totalling on a curve or something. Lin should be more specific about exactly what analylses he is talking about, but then again that is not his strong point. He is never specific as that would get him in trouble and so he is not here. Just what analyses is he referring to BlueCrab. Come on if you are going to post what you did, give some strong support for it.

Alex Hunter is the main reason we do not have an answer to this day, the man is sleeze personified. Sleeze. He was giving information to the Globe on a regular basis. Also, Chet Ubowski said at the grand jury that Patsy is not eliminated.

Lin Wood has twisted and turned until I would think he would be blue in his proverbial face. He actually had the audacity to tell LKL that since Lacy went to Patsy's funeral, that means she is innocent. First of all, Lin Wood is not being specific at all about what test he is talking about; he is generalizing and I would bet money that if we were to find out exactly what tests he was talking about, we would come up with an opposite answer.

 

[BBB167893]

Patsy, along with many others of the 73 tested, could not be cleared of writing the ransom note. But the six government-appointed expert document examiners agreed that, with a score of 4.5 with 5.0 meaning total elimination as the writer, it was highly unlikely that Patsy wrote it.

I've spoken with several QDEs, and they've never heard of such a scale. That "scale" was cooked up by two Ramsey-hired "experts," and even they couldn't eliminate her.

Handwriting analysis is, at moment, a negative process. By that I mean that it's more based on who can't be eliminated rather than who can be matched conclusively.

Thirdly, even if I bought this line, you have to figure in everything else. Even if there were others who couldn't be eliminated (and I'd like to hear some specific names), they were eliminated by other evidence.

To put it another way, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Lin is probably totalling on a curve or something. Lin should be more specific about exactly what analylses he is talking about, but then again that is not his strong point. He is never specific as that would get him in trouble and so he is not here. Just what analyses is he referring to BlueCrab. Come on if you are going to post what you did, give some strong support for it.

I say the same. Darnay Hoffman, whatever you think of him, said and has said that if the Ramseys wanted to shut him up, why don't they present this "analysis" in public? They never have, he says. And he is right. They've presented the polygraph, but nothing else really.

Also, Chet Ubowski said at the grand jury that Patsy is not eliminated.

He said a lot more than that at the GJ. He said that it was only the bleeding ink and the disguised writing tht kept him from identifying her as the author. He also told his boss, Pete Mang, that he believed she wrote it, off-the-record. That's in PMPT if anyone cares.

 

[coloradokares]

I've spoken with several QDEs, and they've never heard of such a scale. That "scale" was cooked up by two Ramsey-hired "experts," and even they couldn't eliminate her.

Handwriting analysis is, at moment, a negative process. By that I mean that it's more based on who can't be eliminated rather than who can be matched conclusively.

Thirdly, even if I bought this line, you have to figure in everything else. Even if there were others who couldn't be eliminated (and I'd like to hear some specific names), they were eliminated by other evidence.

To put it another way, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.



I say the same. Darnay Hoffman, whatever you think of him, said and has said that if the Ramseys wanted to shut him up, why don't they present this "analysis" in public? They never have, he says. And he is right. They've presented the polygraph, but nothing else really.



He said a lot more than that at the GJ. He said that it was only the bleeding ink and the disguised writing tht kept him from identifying her as the author. He also told his boss, Pete Mang, that he believed she wrote it, off-the-record. That's in PMPT if anyone cares.

Well I for one totally agree with everything you just said. I also believe that Alex Hunter knew better. Would have had to.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab. Thank you for posting that.

"And you understand that from Alex Hunter's perspective, (surely you are kiddiing about this) the sum total of the handwriting analyses done by the investigation on Patsy Ramsey was that she was somewhere about a 4.5 on a 1 to 5 scale, with 5 being elimination. Lin is probably totalling on a curve or something. Lin should be more specific about exactly what analylses he is talking about, but then again that is not his strong point. He is never specific as that would get him in trouble and so he is not here. Just what analyses is he referring to BlueCrab. Come on if you are going to post what you did, give some strong support for it.

Alex Hunter is the main reason we do not have an answer to this day, the man is sleeze personified. Sleeze. He was giving information to the Globe on a regular basis. Also, Chet Ubowski said at the grand jury that Patsy is not eliminated.

Lin Wood has twisted and turned until I would think he would be blue in his proverbial face. He actually had the audacity to tell LKL that since Lacy went to Patsy's funeral, that means she is innocent. First of all, Lin Wood is not being specific at all about what test he is talking about; he is generalizing and I would bet money that if we were to find out exactly what tests he was talking about, we would come up with an opposite answer.

Solace,

The handwriting examinations are well known about. The CBI gave the exams to 73 suspects early on in the investigation. But as you likely know, the results of handwriting examinations can be rather subjective and sometimes almost useless. Therefore, to make the findings more objective instead of just a bunch of hard-to-interpret words, the results from each suspect's exam was given a numerical weight -- 1 to 5 -- with 5 being elimination as being the writer of the ransom note.

John obviously scored a 5, since he was eliminated as the writer. Patsy scored a 4.5 and came close to being eliminated. There were an undisclosed number of suspects who scored lower than Patsy. The official results have never been released to the public.

I think they used the standard "London Letter" as the basis for each exam.


BlueCrab

 

[BBB167893]

The official results have never been released to the public.

That's what I said!

Anyone interested in this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

 

[Solace]

That's what I said!

Anyone interested in this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

We were looking for this last week. SuperDave works in mysterious ways. Solace

 

[Solace]

Solace,

The handwriting examinations are well known about. The CBI gave the exams to 73 suspects early on in the investigation. But as you likely know, the results of handwriting examinations can be rather subjective and sometimes almost useless. Therefore, to make the findings more objective instead of just a bunch of hard-to-interpret words, the results from each suspect's exam was given a numerical weight -- 1 to 5 -- with 5 being elimination as being the writer of the ransom note.

John obviously scored a 5, since he was eliminated as the writer. Patsy scored a 4.5 and came close to being eliminated. There were an undisclosed number of suspects who scored lower than Patsy. The official results have never been released to the public.

I think they used the standard "London Letter" as the basis for each exam.


BlueCrab

BlueCrab. This is not my first time at the rodeo, know what I mean. What is close to being eliminated. Is that like being a little pregnant.

Once again, can you prove what you are saying. Echoing things like the London Letter and Lin Wood are not doing it. And I am not asking for a desciption of how they score the test. I think you already know that though.

Patsy is the only one out of 73 people that did not pass this test, unless you can prove otherwise and what you just posted does not do that.

 

[BBB167893]

Nothing mysterious about it!

 

[coloradokares]

That's what I said!

Anyone interested in this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

You realize of course that this has ruined my day, my week, my month and has done nothing but make me want to sit on the steps of the Governors mansion Picket in hand. We need to start plucking the feathers and bubbling the tar. Ayekarumba. Pffffftttt.

 

[tumble]

After the Karr debacle, who pays any credability to what handwriting experts has to say. I remember one of the best in the country said that the odds were 100000 to 1 that the RN was written by anyone else than Karr. Go figure...

 

[Solace]

After the Karr debacle, who pays any credability to what handwriting experts has to say. I remember one of the best in the country said that the odds were 100000 to 1 that the RN was written by anyone else than Karr. Go figure...

Judge for yourself.


http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

 

[tumble]

Judge for yourself.


http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

Exactly, that was my point.

 

[Solace]

Exactly, that was my point.

Tumble, if you want to read it, do. If not, don't. Simple as that.

 

[trixie]

So she is talking about more than ONE person....its JOHN AND PATSY imo

Um, I thought everybody knew for years, (everybody USED to know anyway) Pam has always said Fleet and Priscilla White killed JB.

 

[coloradokares]

Um, I thought everybody knew for years, (everybody USED to know anyway) Pam has always said Fleet and Priscilla White killed JB.

Well then I'd have to sit down and discuss with Pam why she says that. Cause at least as far as I am concerned. I have not seen that published anywhere and attributeable to Pam Paugh. I also would need alot more proof than her saying that whe Fleet and Priscilla White have been the strongest advocates on the behalf of justice for JonBenet. All I can say is IF this ever makes it to a special prosectuor and Fleet and Priscilla do testify.....its gonna Rock the Rockies and it is my humble opinion that Fleet and Priscilla will be still standing tall and proud and advocating for JonBenet. And the rest of them that accuse them.... well I hope they prosecute those they can and publically shame the others. JMHO.

 

[Ames]

Oh it is my understanding is that is was Patsy that could not be cleared as the writer by the handwriting experts. I know it'd be a lot to ask but could you lead me in the right direction of finding out where it says Burke was not cleared as a potential writer of the ransom note. I know they did clear John.

There was no way that a NINE year old could have been the author of that RN...the handwriting is that of an adult. The A's with the little hood (a). Patsy wrote the ransom note. I cannot believe that someone would actually think that a NINE YEAR old boy wrote it...thats just ridiculous.

 

[Ames]

Um, I thought everybody knew for years, (everybody USED to know anyway) Pam has always said Fleet and Priscilla White killed JB.

Um, no..I have never heard that before...so why wouldn't Pam say who the killers were then...why did she state that her loyalty was to JB, in her interview? That would make absolutely NO SENSE..if it were Fleet and Priscilla...but, would make a little bit of sense if she were talking about John and Patsy.

 

[coloradokares]

There was no way that a NINE year old could have been the author of that RN...the handwriting is that of an adult. The A's with the little hood (a). Patsy wrote the ransom note. I cannot believe that someone would actually think that a NINE YEAR old boy wrote it...thats just ridiculous.

Agreed. I have never truly given much validity to the Burke did it theories. But I am certain he did not write the ransom note. To me that is stretching credibility to the breaking point.

 

[narlacat]

Ok and thanks for providing that. Not that I am persuaded but you did provide the basis for your information and I certainly respect that. Thanks again.

Sure beats people's idle thoughts.