Dr. Michael Warren testimony (PhD C.A. Pound Human ID Lab)

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Oct 6, 2008
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You need to review McDuffy vs State 2007 decision case 26 pages long ....need to reread it....

JB - 403 ever created for scenario - it's this.....unfair prejudice , influence jury, there has been no testimony....this duct tape was in fact was as in the video....cite pierce vs. STate 4th case ...97 case ....clearly shows presentation relevant and fair accurate reflect oral testimony....no testimony this duct tape on this child face in this postion....Dr. Warren can't testify...there were 3 pieces - one found 4 feet away..

HHBP - let me hear the witness...profer - no objections - hear what man has to say

Michael Warren - forensic anthropoligist - assoc. prof anthropolgy @ U of Fl.....C. A .POund human identification...lab....

involved with DR. Schultz in prepare report in this case...examine skull and other bones in this case.....issue of the duct tape...establish weapon cause death....how video superposition created....taking photos of decedent skull.....photo of the duct tape and picture off internet...same scale.....photo scales are in there ...size of each images ...face has no scale...first match face to skull then match and aligned and use scale and tape to superimpose the soft tissue....use skull for 1:1 with tape on face....possible without superimpostion to determine Caylee nose? .....research data out there anthropometry in living children ....some measurements ...not measures needed from landmarks in question....any other way to demonstrate duct tape cover nose and mouth other than this process? not....that is populational data apply to single person - better elegant do measurements on the individual....

JB - discuss duct tape being the murder weapon w/JA? discussion with Dr. G....don't remember JA asking murder weapon of duct tape but ask if possible could cover both airways - early on......didn't meet JA until later on.....Dr. Warren suggested this to Mr. JA ....not present when duct tape removed from skull...never saw other than a photo....photo with duct tape attached to hair mat....hair mat underneath skull...object- thought we were not going to have objections...tying it all together.

nestled at base of skull....normally hair usually on top....decomposed hair slumps....talking about live person.....how large child is? no - need landmarks of face ...children grow rapidly.....much older or larger in that photo ...at time of death vs. photo....photo looked fairly recently....not an infant photo.....

Dr. what is purpose of demonstration? HHBP =- show it is possible that tape could cover nose and mouth.....skull utilized necessity...frontal view of scale with photographic scale and tape taken by FBI use skull and tape overlaying image 50% opacity take the two and make same size - sizes are real and match....no scaling of photo but use scale of scale and the landmarks....move from scale and skull and scale of the tape....once scaled to skull can superimpose with image with soft tissue......the actual skull received from medical examiner office....animation will aid his explanation....it is illustrative it is possible....without the video animation can testify....disadavantage takes illustration of the science trust that he is familiar with the data....1.75 cm and anthropologic scale .....based upon photo and skull...close in time not significant growth between skull and picture....

no further questions...witness stand down...


HHBP - JB's case first cited was not helpful to the court for the 403.....the pest control video approx 15 min duration....residence in question...extermination equipment ...drilling holes inject chemicals throughout the house....computer produced animations and narrations...court concluded narrations contained throughout - self serving promotional ta- pe - should not have been introduced in this case....not very long opinion -does NOT go thru a
403 analysis!!!!!

Factors in McDuffy
1) need for evidence - issue by cross and direct exam deal w/placement of of duct tape on the victim and the location of duct tape
2) non-descript picture
3) utilize skull of Caylee - jury has seen several pictures of that particular skull no blood or gore -
Dr indicated this will illustrate and aid in assisting in his testimony - can do without it but helpful....does evidence suggest an emotional basis for a verdict? this piece of evidence live photo superimposed with the skull not have an emotional basis for verdict

is evidence necessary to determine material of fact....both sides debated placement of duct tape - highly relevant....trier of fact to determine....court will permit witness to testify

last but not least - pursuant to pierce -evidence used to illustrate expert opinion , like all witnesses with one exception - law permits to give opinion ....only on their subject of expertise......limited instruction to be given to jury

DT - do not waive previous motion and objection....

Sidebar - SA had disclosed to DT - violated HHBP order - witness had depo taken...it was disclosed....

DT - JB - caution or advise court may also occur with Dr Warrent testimony - he co-authored with Dr. Schultz......likely to occur......

JA - DT is not challenging not cumulative but relevant....

JB - dr. schultz on these matters - why not bring in 3rd forensic? bolster dr. schultz testimony by doing more...highly prejudicial.....

HHBP - cite 2 experts on the topic is cumulative.....usually after 2 it gets to be cumulative in judges opinion..

nothing more return jjury


dR. michael Warren...w/JA....reintroduce self to jury....director human identification lab @ u of FL......forensic medicine....scientific working group....peers best practice ...rech consensus opinion on how to do certain things.....anthropology....consenses today are you aware of any protocols require opening a skull....object outside expertise...overrule...open a skull ...no sir no protocol that I am aware of to saw open skull in skeletal case....not necessary look thru the hole in the bottom and can see and feel for anatomical ....unless you need to photo or something else going on ....negative consequences of that ...can think of 2 (object- overrule) should another expert want to examine and review first analyst opinion then you have altered skull.....and it is not necessary to further invade skull....
foramin magnum - large hole
dental mirror and flashlight can look thru that hole....even objects or something to look at inside the skull with the dental mirror..

number of skulls current under examine....necessary to saw open skull? no not presently....problems with sawing childrens skull? danger is child skull is more fragile and danger of making fractures while open skull.

show you ....exhibit....photo taken by dr spitz when open skull....this fracture here and here is that what you are talking about open fracture.....JA shows large picture....I examined base of cranium fracture was not there before it is a new fracture....aware of any existing ....further treatment and exam of skeletal remains....published draft documents on line for forensic anthropoligy...do not require open skull....object anthropology vs. forensic ....protocols in UN for human rights or genocide cases do not require further sawing open of the skull...object overrule

JB on some photo shop (object- beyond scope - sustain) not a med dr. and you are not forensic pathologist...cant testified on what forensic pathoologist should do....object overrule....testifying what an forensic anthropologist....would do...

so you can't talk but what a forensic pathologist should or shouldn't do...object sustain...
protocol for UN human rights .....for anthropoligst...for mutilple disciples for antrhopolgist, forensic pathologist, forensic archeologist who ever doing those skeletal exams....familiar with Nat. forensic path ....look in the skull patholgical lesions, discoleration @ base of skull, trama, staining, anything having to do with investigation....discoleration @ base of skull suffocation (object-sustain)

there are number of pathological reasons to look into skull...number of pathological findings should be left up to the individual investigator...recommend follow best practice of the discipline......testified during direct exam of a skeletal exam ...object sustain approach sidebar


He is a member of a scientific working group - a group of piers tasked with developing best practices within a field - to reach a consensus on how to do something. He is a member of the anthropology group.

Any protocals that require or recommend th opening of a skull?


No, there is no protocol.

Is it best practice to saw open a skull?

No, sir that has never been discussed.

Why would that be not necessary or a bad idea?

It is not necessary. You can look inside through the large hole in the bottom foramin magnum, and you can see and feel - unless you need to photograph something or further investigate.

Two negative consequences would be...


Should another expert wish to review the first experts, they would not be able to and it would further damage the remains.

A dental mirror can be used to see in the foramin magnum.

He has a number of skulls in his lab


He has not had to saw any of them open.

Children's skulls are more fragile.

The witness was shown Defense AZ - a blow up of Defense Exhibit 26.

It is a photo taken by Dr Spitz when he sawed open the skull. The fractures seen - are they what you are talking about? It is. I examined the base of that cranium and the fracture was not there. This is a new fracture.

Draft documents have been posted on line regarding the handling of skulls.

Do any of them deal with sawing open a skull? No


Are you aware of the Minnessotta protocols? Yes. None recommend sawing open a skull.



He did the Power Point video. That was done on Photo Shop?


He is not a medical doctor a forensic pathologist? No


He is testifying as to what an anthropologist would do.

Why look into the skull? You are looking for lesions, damage, staining, anything that would help in the investigation.

That would include any staining by the ear that would indicate suffocation?


There are a number of pathological reasons to look inside a skull? Yes.

If a pathologist feels that is the best way, that should be left up to that professional? The recommendation would be to follow the best practices of your discipline.


SIDEBAR - 3:16

He did not do the cranial washes in this case? No.

Did you review the autopsy report? An autopsy was not done in this case. It was a bone examination of the remains.

Did you review the 23 page report by Dr. G? He didn't think he had ever seen it.

How about Dr. Bruce Goldberger's report? No.

How about the toxicology report?

OBJECTION - asked and answered - SUSTAINED

Witness is excused at 3:20

Object sustain
JB you didn't do the cranial washes? no ....

this was not an autopsy case this was a bone skeletal case....haven't reviewed autopsy report or toxicolgy report ....(object- sustian)

witness excused...

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