EA

[questfortrue]

Hi, QFT. Tell me something please. I'm sure you've seen autopsy photos of JonBenet's face (I'll assume everyone has in order to avoid having to post one). Would you describe the color of her face to be pale, red, normal, or blue? I know it's difficult to say with complete certainty because the color in the photos could be off. But each of these four possibilities (excluding livor mortis) points to something different as far as the mechanism of her death.

Uh-oh, Is this a trick question? The photos vary, but they look normal to slightly flushed. Not blue. Not really pale. No expert here!

 

[Eldee]

I have never heard of "corporal cleansing" before.
i am almost afriad to search it up on Google out of fear what might pop up.

Me neither. I keep reading about "corporal cleansing" I really don't know what it means.

 

[otg]

Uh-oh, Is this a trick question? The photos vary, but they look normal to slightly flushed. Not blue. Not really pale. No expert here!

No, not a trick question at all -- opinion. I'd like to know others' opinions, because I realize the limitations on what photos we have available and how the appearance can even vary between computer screen color adjustments.

 

[BOESP]

I have never heard of "corporal cleansing" before.
i am almost afriad to search it up on Google out of fear what might pop up.

I'd never heard the term either until reading Steve Thomas's book. He didn't give a definition for what he meant but in researching the term it seems to have a religious connotation. I don't think you'll find anything especially offensive if you Google the term.

My take is Patsy wanted to "get my baby clean" after whatever event occurred that caused Patsy to believe JonBenet was dirty. I think Patsy restrained JonBenet with a rope device and during the cleansing session Patsy forced JonBenet's head into, perhaps, a bathroom fixture or other stable object (I'm one of the people otg mentioned above as having an alternative idea other than JonBenet being struck by an object). :moo:

The above is what the evidence known to the public suggests to me.

I sit on the fence as to what precipitated the "corporal cleansing" and whether or not John Ramsey was involved in that event or whether Burke was involved or whether some altercation between Patsy and JonBenet was the cause.

I think Patsy killed JonBenet (probably accidentally) and John figured out what happened and decided to go along with the cover-up.

:moo:

I don't think Burke killed his sister. :moo:

 

[UKGuy]

I agree totally with you on this, wengr, and really wish we could put the notion to rest once and for all. But we can't because new people keep picking up the ball and trying carry it, and others don't want to let go of their already formed opinions. I suppose that because of the fact that a ligature is involved, it's only natural to question the possibility. But that is where any similarities between JonBenet's death and EA end. In almost all cases of EA or AEA the device used is never a thin cord. Rather it is something broader and softer so as to leave no tell-tale marks on the person's neck.

Reported cases of accidental death from this averages about two per day. Of those, only about one out of a hundred involve a female. This fact in itself does not rule it out; but add to that the fact that almost all accidental deaths that are the result of this are because it was an individual performing it on himself (or herself in very rare cases) and their planned fail-safe means of escape doesn't work out well -- not because of one person performing it on another.

It's believed (but usually unprovable) that there may be more deaths from this than reported because embarrassed family members who discover it oftentimes try to remove or alter evidence before calling authorities. They prefer to have the death reported as a suicide rather than have it thought to be an accidental death while performing a self-indulging, kinky sex act.

You are correct also about the device found on JonBenet's neck being "very poorly designed" for this purpose. In fact, I'd go further and say it's not even functional for any purpose other than to disguise how the cord actually strangled her.

otg,

In fact, I'd go further and say it's not even functional for any purpose other than to disguise how the cord actually strangled her.

ITA.

IMO the cord represents something more than staging, once the paintbrush handle was added for effect, the intention becomes de-facto staging.

Whomever ligature asphyxiated JonBenet was making certain that she was dead, they then added the broken paintbrush handle to suggest this was the initial cause of death?

Her head injury likely took place upstairs, either in the breakfast bar or her own bedroom. My money is on her own bedroom, I can imagine some situation where JonBenet is being restrained by her neck whilst being molested, this leads to a loss of conciousness and critically bowel control, potentially enraging her molester who has to wipe their hands somewhere?

I think JonBenet had her pineapple snack then retired to her bedroom, the parents to their respective bedtimes, then someone visited JonBenet's bedroom leading to her death.


.

 

[renah]

I'll bite, otg

I say that her skintone seemed closer to normal, based on what Ive seen on my screen and also because my own limited knowledge & readings describe the possible tone changes as being very extreme and unmistakable.

Otg, i dont even have to ask you to be kind --- because you always are. Thank you for that

 

[renah]

One of these days Ill learn how to quote, i promise. Soon.

Meantime UKGuy, do you really think it could have been That cold & deliberate? I think thats what confuses me the most. To me it seems more likely that even the murderer would begin by fooling himself, even if he knew deep down where (he WANTED) it to end.

 

[FreeSafety36]

You have some very cogent thoughts, FreeSafety, so don't let me (or anyone else) discourage you from posting or expressing them even if we disagree. Debate is healthy and makes us each consider things we may not have thought about -- or may have thought about but were too timid to post.

That said, I should point out that the evidence of skull and brain damage rules out the possibility of more than one blow unless any additional blow coincidentally fell in exactly the same spot as the first. I believe all the damage done to JonBenet's head were caused by one blow by an instrument shaped to cause an elliptical depressed fracture of the skull. The linear fractures extend from this "hole" and resulted from the forces created by the shape of this same object. Alternately, many believe it could have been from her head being pushed into something, but I'll let them make that argument. There are many threads and posts where this is discussed.

Welcome to WS.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm very much enjoying being here and hope I can contribute.

I should have made myself more clear in my previous post. I didn't mean I thought the skull damage was the result of repeated blows. I absolutely believe that it was all done by a single blow. What I meant was that it simply may not have been made by the first strike. Maybe the first blow was much softer and didn't result in any mark being left. When that didn't bring her around, he could have thought he needed more force. Just a theory though. Thanks for the reply.

 

[UKGuy]

One of these days Ill learn how to quote, i promise. Soon.

Meantime UKGuy, do you really think it could have been That cold & deliberate? I think thats what confuses me the most. To me it seems more likely that even the murderer would begin by fooling himself, even if he knew deep down where (he WANTED) it to end.

renah,
Yes I do. It was done to deliberately kill JonBenet. The killer might have considered it a mercy killing, or one intended to make sure JonBenet never spoke?

The R's had the opportunity to dial for medical assistance, they declined. According to some reports there is a time gap between her head injury and the final asphyxiation, so the R's were likely assessing the situation, deciding what to do etc. Then someone prepared to ligature asphyxiate JonBenet, by fetching the ligature and tying it around her neck. This could have been accomplished upstairs in her own bedroom. The addition of the paintbrush handle, a staging flourish, possibly a last minute thought?

If it had not been deliberate then Coroner Meyer would not have been able to consider ligature asphyxiation as a causal factor in her death.


Since someone may have just added the cord and paintbrush handle as staging and not as an asphyxiation device!


.

 

[FreeSafety36]

I have never heard of "corporal cleansing" before.
i am almost afriad to search it up on Google out of fear what might pop up.

Me neither. I keep reading about "corporal cleansing" I really don't know what it means.

Hope I can be of assistance here. I believe I can explain "corporal cleansing".

I believe it is a lot like what used to be done in the Army to guys who didn't shower. We called it a GI shower. A group of guys would go get the stinky guy, drag him to the shower, undress him, run the water scalding hot and throw him under the water. Then he'd be "washed" with brillo pads, scrub pads, toilet brushes and various cleaning solutions. Sorry to be graphic, folks, but it's not a nice sight.

This type of behavior is used as a punishment by some people for things the offender has done that are viewed as unclean. In the Ramsey's case, I'm assuming he means the bed wetting. I believe he's saying Patsy used a most uncomfortable method of cleaning her daughter up as an effort to discourage the behavior.

 

[renah]

I'm with you UKGuy: cause of death WAS strangulation, and I'll agree that it was probably deliberate, too.

But why does the strangulation have to be done by a Person #2? Isnt that what you're saying here?

A more acceptable TO ME view would be one perp only, with the violent behavior gradually escalating until the final & vicious deed... And THEN the perp went running for parental help, assuming that he even did so. (Im not totally convinced of that yet. When i was nine, i could certainly have written that ransom note! andalso, style & appearance of handwriting can definitely be passed along to offspring just like brown or blue eyes. But i digress).

I realize Im not citing evidence to back up what is essentially my emotional point of view. Im just finding it difficult to envision it going boom Attack in the bedroom! Boom Tie her up! Knock her out! Carry her (quietly) Down the Stairs!

See? In my mind the perp convinced her-- & probably himself, Almost -- by being gentle and kind at first. Once she screamed however (once he hurt her), The game was done. Then is when i think he acted out the sexual assaults, once he was sure that she really WAS unconcious, which he ascertained by various pokings with train tracks and broken paintbrush handles and possibly a half dressed Barbie-type doll.

Im open to other ideas, though, which is why i ask.

 

[txsvicki]

It seems like whoever strangled JonBenet would have also been the one to jab her with an object, because experts said that was done at the point of death or just before. I'd like to know if they think the train track looking injuries were a few hours before death.

 

[BOESP]

The autopsy lists two events as the cause of death: ligature strangulation with accompanying blunt force trauma to the head.

Definitely, the ligature strangulation is what took her last moment of life but many of the experts seem to believe JonBenet would have eventually died from the blunt force trauma to the head.

 

[BOESP]

It seems like whoever strangled JonBenet would have also been the one to jab her with an object, because experts said that was done at the point of death or just before. I'd like to know if they think the train track looking injuries were a few hours before death.

That would be a good question for Chief Kolar on his next radio program here at Websleuths. :loveyou:

 

[BOESP]

Hope I can be of assistance here. I believe I can explain "corporal cleansing".

I believe it is a lot like what used to be done in the Army to guys who didn't shower. We called it a GI shower. A group of guys would go get the stinky guy, drag him to the shower, undress him, run the water scalding hot and throw him under the water. Then he'd be "washed" with brillo pads, scrub pads, toilet brushes and various cleaning solutions. Sorry to be graphic, folks, but it's not a nice sight.

This type of behavior is used as a punishment by some people for things the offender has done that are viewed as unclean. In the Ramsey's case, I'm assuming he means the bed wetting. I believe he's saying Patsy used a most uncomfortable method of cleaning her daughter up as an effort to discourage the behavior.

That's a plausible definition for "corporal cleansing." Thanks for jumping in on that issue. Good post!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hope I can be of assistance here. I believe I can explain "corporal cleansing".

I believe it is a lot like what used to be done in the Army to guys who didn't shower. We called it a GI shower. A group of guys would go get the stinky guy, drag him to the shower, undress him, run the water scalding hot and throw him under the water. Then he'd be "washed" with brillo pads, scrub pads, toilet brushes and various cleaning solutions. Sorry to be graphic, folks, but it's not a nice sight.

This type of behavior is used as a punishment by some people for things the offender has done that are viewed as unclean. In the Ramsey's case, I'm assuming he means the bed wetting. I believe he's saying Patsy used a most uncomfortable method of cleaning her daughter up as an effort to discourage the behavior.

I honestly don't believe Patsy cared that much. Hygiene IMO wasn't all that important to her. She couldn't even recall the last time JonBenet bathed. There were stained disgusting panties in JonBenet's drawers. Poop all over... Toilets not being flushed and Patsy didn't bother to flush and swirl the toilet brush around... Instead told the housekeeper to take care of it.
IMO Patsy was just nasty that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DeeDee249]

The autopsy lists two events as the cause of death: ligature strangulation with accompanying blunt force trauma to the head.

Definitely, the ligature strangulation is what took her last moment of life but many of the experts seem to believe JonBenet would have eventually died from the blunt force trauma to the head.

Every expert opinion I have read has stated that JB would have died from that head bash alone. But whoever strangled her may or may not have known that.
As for multiple head bashes or pinches...there were NO marks on her to indicate she was pinched - and it would have left a mark (red if she were alive, white if she were dead) or a bruise. A pinch makes a distinctive kind of bruise- clear skin in between 2 areas of pressure. There was however, indication that she may have been shaken. There was evidence that her brain slammed into her skull in a manner that may have indicating shaking.
I do not see anything in the autopsy that leads me to believe that she was bashed more than once. Experts have stated that the first blow would have knocked her out and knocked her DOWN immediately and any subsequent blow would have hit a different area of the skull. Coroners cal always tell things like this. She suffered a single, horrific and fatal blow to her skull.

 

[otg]

otg,

ITA.

IMO the cord represents something more than staging, once the paintbrush handle was added for effect, the intention becomes de-facto staging.

Whomever ligature asphyxiated JonBenet was making certain that she was dead, they then added the broken paintbrush handle to suggest this was the initial cause of death?

I agree and disagree with you on this one, UKG. I agree that the broken paintbrush handle was added after she was already dead, because it doesn’t work as implied and because of the hair that was entangled in the knots. But I still don’t believe the cord was originally wrapped around her neck with deadly intent. I think it was applied loosely and then tightened to the point of strangulation from the unintended accident.

Her head injury likely took place upstairs, either in the breakfast bar or her own bedroom.

I won’t belabor the point over where the head injury occurred. I think it happened in the basement (along with all the other injuries), but I know why you still believe it happened in her bedroom (blood on her pillow). Kolar thinks it happened in the kitchen, but didn’t explain why until pressed for an answer about it in one of Tricia’s previous webcasts. I understood him to say basically that it was because of his theory that the head blow was dealt as a reaction to an argument over the pineapple (but this doesn’t account for how a ten-year-old would be able to get an unconscious body down to the basement afterwards).

My money is on her own bedroom, I can imagine some situation where JonBenet is being restrained by her neck whilst being molested, this leads to a loss of conciousness and critically bowel control, potentially enraging her molester who has to wipe their hands somewhere?

Seems like you are trying here to tie everything we know up into one event. You are associating the poop all over the place to unconsciousness and a loss of bowel control, and resulting soiled hands to the fecal smearing everywhere. I don’t think loss of sphincter control is something associated with unconsciousness, and I suspect the fecal smearing is unrelated to the actual event of JonBenet’s death. But I could be wrong on this, so if you can still imagine that as a possible scenario, so be it.

I think JonBenet had her pineapple snack then retired to her bedroom, the parents to their respective bedtimes, then someone visited JonBenet's bedroom leading to her death.
.

BTW, speaking of the blood on her pillow (implied from an interview question), did you realize (I didn’t) how much scattered blood there was on various items in the basement? Not only was there smeared blood on her thighs, in her genitals, and in her panties -- but her blood was also found on the white blanket, the pink nightgown lying on it, and the shirt she was wearing. Maybe everyone else knew this but me, but I just recently ran across it looking at the DNA report screen caps from TV.

 

[otg]

I'll bite, otg

I say that her skintone seemed closer to normal, based on what Ive seen on my screen and also because my own limited knowledge & readings describe the possible tone changes as being very extreme and unmistakable.

Otg, i dont even have to ask you to be kind --- because you always are. Thank you for that

I agree. I just wondered if everyone else would agree. Keep in mind of course that the first pictures taken of her body were around 12 hours after she died. If she has livor on the right side of her face, the blood has to come from somewhere. So most likely the left side of her face is somewhat lighter as a result of the livor forming on the opposite side. But generally speaking, I wouldn't call her face as being unusually pale, extremely red, and especially not blue.

 

[wengr]

In almost all cases of EA or AEA the device used is never a thin cord. Rather it is something broader and softer so as to leave no tell-tale marks on the person's neck.

Very interesting. A great point that I had not previously considered.

It's believed (but usually unprovable) that there may be more deaths from this than reported because embarrassed family members who discover it oftentimes try to remove or alter evidence before calling authorities. They prefer to have the death reported as a suicide rather than have it thought to be an accidental death while performing a self-indulging, kinky sex act.

I don't doubt this. I expect people will go to great lengths to avoid the exposure of a loved one's involvement with something that is considered to be deviant sexual behavior.
I suspect that is exactly what we have in this case.