Evidence for "Dead body in the Damn Car"#2

[LambChop]

Yet, none of the reports said 99.999% surety. Yet they didn't even say likely. Yet they didn't even say most likely. I don't even think they said probably. There are other words to describe. So, I am not sure that these experts are going to agree with Sa anymore than they agree with the defense.

How about some questions for the FBI Dr Vass, and Dr Haskell:

Are you absolutely sure that the dark root at the proximal end of the hair is that of a "human decomposing body"?
Is it your expert opinion sir that Caylee's body was indeed in the trunk?
Did you inspect the trunk yourself?
One hair, one napkin, one component of vfa (butric acid) ? Is that what you would expect to find after a body decomposes in a trunk? or would you expect to find much much more?
Is it adipocere or not Dr Vass?
Were you given the opportunity to inspect all the garbage in the bag to include the bag to help you make a determination? or were you just given a couple pieces? Would you not rather have the bag of garbage along with the carpet to make your determination?
It has been said that the trunk had a basketball sized stain, and the bag also has a basketball sized stain, would you not like to have compared these two things to determine the source of the VFA?
At the body farm, have you found cadavers to produce post mortem death bands at 2.6 days? Or is it normally 6 weeks, 6 months?
After finding the hair on the ground surrounding the skull, would you expect this skull to have been submerged in water at some point? Doesn't hair float Dr Haskell? Do you believe Caylee's skull was ever under water? Could you explain to us, how could a skull possibly be standing upright as you described Dr?
Well, was the body inside any bags or not?

There are a lot of unanswered questions. There is no way that we have determined surety. Moo

I think badgering an expert by defense would not fair well with the jury. Experts, particularly from the State are there just to do there job. They have no stake in the trial. Now an expert who is paid in upwards of $100,000 to testify....he'd be on my hinkymeter. Let's face it at this point a defense expert would have to say there is no evidence of a dead body and actually there is no evidence that KC ever had a child. Afterall, isn't that why we are going to trial because a mother won't tell us what happened to her child? Everyday she waits makes it look bad for her. "It's not in my client's best interest to tell where her child is." JB It's not in his client's best interest to say what happened to her daughter because either way she is facing prison for a long time. Jurors are a lot wiser than they were 20 years ago. Nothing will go unnoticed in this trial.

 

[InspectorGadget]

I added an important piece of state's evidence to your list in bolded red.

Hi Harmony

Butyric acid is also found in butter, cheese and vomit. When the butyric acid goes rancid, it has an unpleasant odour.

Where is the roll from the paper towels?

Obvious answer... In tony's kitchen.

 

[InspectorGadget]

I too am curious about the reddish-brown stain on the outside of the white bag.
http://marinadedave.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/odor7.jpg

I have heard speculation that it was something from the dumpster, or soil, but wouldn't decomp fluid be that color? I haven't seen any test results on the outside of the bag that I recall....

You could be right about that, I don't know what colour decomp fluid is. (Anybody?)

But wouldn't the prosecution have released that if it had tested positive, like they released the hair evidence? The bottom of that dumpster looks pretty wet, I think it is rusty water.

 

[InspectorGadget]

Yet, none of the reports said 99.999% surety. Yet they didn't even say likely. Yet they didn't even say most likely. I don't even think they said probably. There are other words to describe. So, I am not sure that these experts are going to agree with Sa anymore than they agree with the defense.

How about some questions for the FBI Dr Vass, and Dr Haskell:

Are you absolutely sure that the dark root at the proximal end of the hair is that of a "human decomposing body"?
Is it your expert opinion sir that Caylee's body was indeed in the trunk?
Did you inspect the trunk yourself?
One hair, one napkin, one component of vfa (butric acid) ? Is that what you would expect to find after a body decomposes in a trunk? or would you expect to find much much more?
Is it adipocere or not Dr Vass?
Were you given the opportunity to inspect all the garbage in the bag to include the bag to help you make a determination? or were you just given a couple pieces? Would you not rather have the bag of garbage along with the carpet to make your determination?
It has been said that the trunk had a basketball sized stain, and the bag also has a basketball sized stain, would you not like to have compared these two things to determine the source of the VFA?
At the body farm, have you found cadavers to produce post mortem death bands at 2.6 days? Or is it normally 6 weeks, 6 months?
After finding the hair on the ground surrounding the skull, would you expect this skull to have been submerged in water at some point? Doesn't hair float Dr Haskell? Do you believe Caylee's skull was ever under water? Could you explain to us, how could a skull possibly be standing upright as you described Dr?
Well, was the body inside any bags or not?

There are a lot of unanswered questions. There is no way that we have determined surety. Moo

Hi NTS

They said consistent with. Just because it is consistent with decomposition, it doesn't mean it isn't consistent with a whole combination of other chemicals.

Casey had quite a cocktail there including the remains of drinks in cans, including Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Dr Pepper, Cherry Coke Zero, Milwaukee Best Light, Coke classic, salami, cheese, empty chewing tobacco container and last but not least possible urine. Most of them were empty but there is always a little residue left over in the cans and packaging, and anyone who dislikes smoking will tell you how foul tobacco smells. Not to mention possibly rancid cheese, butter, olive oil etc. etc.

Three week old urine sitting in the sun would knock anybody over.

I wonder why OCSO decided not to worry about testing the possible urine?

 

[InspectorGadget]

Exactly! And every test:

Cadaver dogs
Sniff test
hair analysis
adipocere

is inaccurate and shows there was a cadaver in the car...Wow! What are the odds? KC must have done something REALLY bad in a previous life--maybe like murder or something.

I think the tests are accurate. The evidence released so far may be somewhat incomplete....

 

[InspectorGadget]

I don't think this has been documented in this thread, so adding it in:

George Anthony, OCSO interview July 24 2008:

But then she said it in a way, she says, ‘George, it was the pizza, right?’ And I said, ‘Yeah (affirmative), it was the pizza.’ And that’s what I left it go at that, but. I’m sitting here as the grandfather, as the father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget it. I even stuck my nose down on it and I’m, I’m concerned.”

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/110608georgeanthony/index.htm

George couldn't have been so sure about the smell or, as an ex police officer, he would have called 911 before he drove the car home. He would not have paid out hundreds of dollars to recover a car none of his family could use.

He would not have stuck his nose down on the stain if he had been sure. Even after he did, he wasn't sure, he was concerned. He didn't know there was a can of "possible" urine in the car. He is a parent and a grandparent. It is only natural that being in an agitated state already, he feared the worst when he opened the trunk.

IMO

 

[InspectorGadget]

Yes,KC still has a lot of questions she has not ,will not answer. But just using common sense, again, many people said they smelled a "dead body" smell in the trunk. Caylee was found dead. She was last seen in that car. You don't need scientists to figure it out.JMOO

Hi MissJames

Casey doesn't have to answer any questions. Before questioning her as a suspect, the police would have read Casey her Miranda rights as a US citizen.

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense."

http://www.usconstitution.net/miranda.html

IMO, her lawyer would have advised her to shut up

 

[Tulessa]

George couldn't have been so sure about the smell or, as an ex police officer, he would have called 911 before he drove the car home. He would not have paid out hundreds of dollars to recover a car none of his family could use.

He would not have stuck his nose down on the stain if he had been sure. Even after he did, he wasn't sure, he was concerned. He didn't know there was a can of "possible" urine in the car. He is a parent and a grandparent. It is only natural that being in an agitated state already, he feared the worst when he opened the trunk.

IMO

I just love the fact that people are comparing the odor of decomp with old urine.

 

[InspectorGadget]

To quote Logicalgirl: "It is what it is." And from what we see from defense, that is all that it is. Doesn't make the child any less dead nor her mother any less guilty.

Hi Lambchop

And "What will be will be!"

Truth is stanger than fiction & all that.

I do hope they have charged the right person because it would not be Justice for Caylee if SODDI.

 

[Tulessa]

Hi NTS

They said consistent with. Just because it is consistent with decomposition, it doesn't mean it isn't consistent with a whole combination of other chemicals.

Casey had quite a cocktail there including the remains of drinks in cans, including Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Dr Pepper, Cherry Coke Zero, Milwaukee Best Light, Coke classic, salami, cheese, empty chewing tobacco container and last but not least possible urine. Most of them were empty but there is always a little residue left over in the cans and packaging, and anyone who dislikes smoking will tell you how foul tobacco smells. Not to mention possibly rancid cheese, butter, olive oil etc. etc.

Three week old urine sitting in the sun would knock anybody over.

I wonder why OCSO decided not to worry about testing the possible urine?

But does NOT smell like decomp.

 

[InspectorGadget]

Again just adding another layer of information to this discussion: some of the answers will be presented in the lexicon of th examiner's jargonese: for example, one frequently hears Michael Baden, M. D. refer to information/conclusions "within a reasonable degree of medical certainty". (He also has a tendency to slip and call things "medico-legal" rather than forensic but that's my ageism bias showing!). My point: the presentations of the scientific materials will be made I ASSUME within the backdrop of the context, IE. the analytical protocols,standards,controls,guidelines,etc. One would HOPE that those scientific results that are "borderline" or "negative" are presented in exactly the same manner as those which are "positive", thus exhibiting the true nature of science...it serves the victim/truth/justice but NEITHER "SIDE".

The outstanding questions floating around are spectacular, more than likely there are answers to them within the materials retained in the SAO, waiting for the final pre-trial release. As far as we lay persons know, NONE of the State experts have been deposed by the defense (correct?) and none of the defense experts have been deposed or been in contact with the State/parties involved with the case beyond Drs. Lee & Spitz (correct?) as of today. MORE FIREWORKS to follow!

Hello Joypath

If this goes to trial it certainly sounds like it will be dramatic. I think you said you were a microbiologist so I consider you less of a layperson than some of us. Thankyou for answering my questions.

I wasn't going to revisit this and I promise I am not going to split any more hairs with you from now on LOL!

But just one last question. Since the FBI lab did not do nuclear DNA testing on the root end, would this indicate that they don't have the root? How can they tell which end is the proximal end, and how close the piece of hair that they do have, was to the root?

TIA

 

[InspectorGadget]

I originally posted in the other Dead Body Dam Car thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phumi
Well, just to save a little time, let me sum up the thread thus far for any newcomers.

*Car trunk contains hair with mitochondrial DNA that is consistent with Caylee.
*Hair contains dark banding consistent with post-mortem decomposition.
*Trunk contains garbage bag with maggots and coffin flies.
*Garbage bag contains papertowels/napkins with substance consistent with adipocere.
*Air test indicates chemical signature unique to human decomposition.
*Smell in car consistent with human decomposition (multiple reports)
*Owner of car reports smell to friend as coming from death of an animal (not garbage in her trunk.) Car owner leaves car at Amscot. 6 months later (long after garbage bags have been removed) it is reported that the smell of death in the car is still overwhelming.

Car owner's daughter is missing and months later found deceased--packaged like garbage and thrown in the woods 1/4-1/2 mile from car owner's home in garbage bags and laundry hamper consistent to those found in the home. Oh, and a rather rare (according to the manufacturing company) duct tape on her skull--and guess what--that same rather rare duct tape is found on gas cans that are in the home of the car owner and were once in the trunk of the car owner.


Obvious conclusion...All of the above were caused by lunchmeat.


Ladies and gentlemen, Caylee Anthony was killed by a ham sandwhich. The defense rests.
**********************************************************************


Great Summary! And IIRC, the same death bands were found on the hair from Caylee's "hair mat". If and I believe this to be the case, the dark bands were not found on the hair from the hairbrush, some of which must be Caylee's and not the dogs, did not have this band, this strengthens the conclusion that the hair in the trunk was from a dead Caylee.

Hi Phumi

With regard to the death band, I dont think all decomposing hair necessarily has one. Be that as it may, I can't seem to find anything in the docs about the death band being on the hair which shows signs of decomposition that was found in the trunk .

Would you be able to post a link or a page number?


TIA
TIA

 

[InspectorGadget]

All this time I thought it was the Chupacabra.....maybe it left the ham sandwich?

Yeah no matter which way the defense tries to spin it there is just no getting around the evidence on this one. I don't think any jury is going to have a hard time believing Caylee was in the trunk and deceased. No other explanation is "reasonable" in my opinion.

I doubt Casey was hauling a dead pig around in her trunk for doing some whole hog bar-b-q like they do in Georgia. Mmm thats some good vittels.

I think she did go to a few bbqs LOL!!

 

[InspectorGadget]

I think badgering an expert by defense would not fair well with the jury. Experts, particularly from the State are there just to do there job. They have no stake in the trial. Now an expert who is paid in upwards of $100,000 to testify....he'd be on my hinkymeter. Let's face it at this point a defense expert would have to say there is no evidence of a dead body and actually there is no evidence that KC ever had a child. Afterall, isn't that why we are going to trial because a mother won't tell us what happened to her child? Everyday she waits makes it look bad for her. "It's not in my client's best interest to tell where her child is." JB It's not in his client's best interest to say what happened to her daughter because either way she is facing prison for a long time. Jurors are a lot wiser than they were 20 years ago. Nothing will go unnoticed in this trial.

I expect that the prosecution will make sure the jury are aware that the defense experts are being paid. The reason any defense expert is paid is because he/she has appropriate qualifications and experience. I think the majority of defense experts would be surprised to hear that some consider any payment that are made, to be a bribe.

 

[magnolia]

Hi Phumi

With regard to the death band, I dont think all decomposing hair necessarily has one. Be that as it may, I can't seem to find anything in the docs about the death band being on the hair which shows signs of decomposition that was found in the trunk .

Would you be able to post a link or a page number?


TIA
TIA

Inspector Gadget, as reflected in the report, it is clear,specimen Q12 did indeed have characteristics of apparent decomposition. The hair that exhibited apparent changes came from a deceased person.

page 2/3329 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18530294.pdf

 

[InspectorGadget]

Inspector Gadget, as reflected in the report, it is clear,specimen Q12 did indeed have characteristics of apparent decomposition. The hair that exhibited apparent changes came from a deceased person.

page 2/3329 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18530294.pdf

But it implies that a more meaningful conclusion could have been hoped for. We are back to the "suitable known head hair" debate.

Oops, I am out of here, I wasn't going to mentionthat again. Sorry LOL!

 

[magnolia]

Hi NTS

They said consistent with. Just because it is consistent with decomposition, it doesn't mean it isn't consistent with a whole combination of other chemicals.

Casey had quite a cocktail there including the remains of drinks in cans, including Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Dr Pepper, Cherry Coke Zero, Milwaukee Best Light, Coke classic, salami, cheese, empty chewing tobacco container and last but not least possible urine. Most of them were empty but there is always a little residue left over in the cans and packaging, and anyone who dislikes smoking will tell you how foul tobacco smells. Not to mention possibly rancid cheese, butter, olive oil etc. etc.

Three week old urine sitting in the sun would knock anybody over.

I wonder why OCSO decided not to worry about testing the possible urine?

I don't believe any of the witnesses have said the car/trunk had the odor of ammonia/urine.

 

[Phumi]

Hi NTS

They said consistent with. Just because it is consistent with decomposition, it doesn't mean it isn't consistent with a whole combination of other chemicals.

Casey had quite a cocktail there including the remains of drinks in cans, including Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Dr Pepper, Cherry Coke Zero, Milwaukee Best Light, Coke classic, salami, cheese, empty chewing tobacco container and last but not least possible urine. Most of them were empty but there is always a little residue left over in the cans and packaging, and anyone who dislikes smoking will tell you how foul tobacco smells. Not to mention possibly rancid cheese, butter, olive oil etc. etc.

Three week old urine sitting in the sun would knock anybody over.

I wonder why OCSO decided not to worry about testing the possible urine?

See-now that's just not true and you know it. We've discussed the language. We've referenced the FBI manual that says consistent with= THE SAME AS. Believe me, I understand your academic exercise. But you really need to come up with something better to get an A.

 

[Harmony 2]

Hi Harmony

Butyric acid is also found in butter, cheese and vomit. When the butyric acid goes rancid, it has an unpleasant odour.

Where is the roll from the paper towels?

Obvious answer... In tony's kitchen.

Good morning IG!!

Actually I already knew that. However, butter, cheese and vomit do not have post mortem intervals. Besides well renowned scientists would know the difference between those items and decomp fluid. I think you need to give Dr. Vass more credit, his work is not a high school lab.

 

[BeanE]

George couldn't have been so sure about the smell or, as an ex police officer, he would have called 911 before he drove the car home. He would not have paid out hundreds of dollars to recover a car none of his family could use.

He would not have stuck his nose down on the stain if he had been sure. Even after he did, he wasn't sure, he was concerned. He didn't know there was a can of "possible" urine in the car. He is a parent and a grandparent. It is only natural that being in an agitated state already, he feared the worst when he opened the trunk.

IMO

1) Obviously, you don't know George - or Cindy. Cindy told him to go to work. He did. Please read the discovery documents - particularly George's SA depo - to start becoming familiar with how George, as repeatedly stated by himself, operates.

2) That's convoluted logic. He wasn't sure until he did stick his nose down on it perhaps.


George was sure what the smell was. He knew that smell, he knew Caylee was the only one missing (as do we), and although not the brightest bulb, even he can add 1 to 1 and get the answer correct. We know that because he stated it. More than once.

Again, read the discovery documents. Read George's statements. You will see that he says himself, in sworn testimony, that he knew not only that it was human decomp he smelled, but that it was his little grandbaby.