Evidence of Torture used at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib

[Karole28]

It'll never happen. I'm still waiting for Murtha and co. to set the record strait and apologize :silenced:

Don't hold your breath!

 

[angelmom]

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what? perhaps I am naive when it comes to technology but surely if we were monitoring the man we could have picked him or his cell phone up....just sayin. Ya think it might have prevented some of the nonsense that just occurred in Afghanistan that is so egregious, Karzai has to threated Pakistan with military force? So hmmmmm

So if I am getting all of the follow up correctly the allegations of torture are some kind of concerted effort between the detainees and the liberal media to give the administration and our soldiers a black eye.

Got it.

What I'm asking is if you would suggest hanging the governor of a state for treason if a handful of prisoners in his jail claimed (without any physical proof) that they had been tortured. If one said he had been sodomized but refused a physical exam. If others said their sexual torture included a cavity search and being forced to strip. If a psychologist (their psychologist) said they must have been tortured because he has clear evidence that they are suffering from PTSD. And they have some burn marks and scarring consistent with electric shock. Oh, but we don't have any records of whether or not they came in with those marks - and BTW, they arrived via a hellhole KNOWN for torture and mass murder.

Would you paint the entire population of their jailers with the broad brush of "criminals" and "rapists" and "animals" and other such slurs on this weak evidence?

Or would you even consider the fact that some of these prisoners might not be the innocent little angels they would like us to believe, and that they might just be slanting the facts the tiniest little bit to make it sound better for the rest of the world? Have you ever raised a middle schooler?

But because some guy from the New Yorker says so, we are supposed to assume that not only is our entire military fighting force full of such scum, but our Commander in Chief knows about it, condones it, and indeed jokes about it among his staff. He loves it, because, you know, it's his whole plan of crashing 4 planes and killing 3,000 people come to fruition.

GMAFB.

 

[thefragile7393]

And this surprises people?

 

[Karole28]

Respectfully, I do get it. If this thread was not about torture, you and I could debate what Iraq has to do with Al Qaida and 9/11, but I am assuming that topic has been well covered.

In the PP (Iraq war thread) I just updated it today.

You do not know my feelings about Iraq and whether we should be there, so don't assume-we can discuss it on another thread.

Well, that's why I said "(I assume)"

As for your intel argument, my guess and your guess hold equal merit simply because you do not know either why BinLaden's cell phone would remain free to roam with whomever attached to it.

I'm assuming Bin Laden was, we have no reason to believe differently.

Why would there be hearings regarding what constitutes torture and whether the military had been given clear instructions regarding what constitutes torture if the torture was not being used? If there was not photographic evidence of such?

Because we aren't complete savages and want to ensure we follow the Geneva convention and our own laws. I would be willing to bet that the first time a combatant screamed maltreatment, investigations were launched.

Here we have 11 men who claim they were subjected to such, and who were examined thoroughly by physicians who then released a report stating their allegations were true.

Not so. Some of the men would not consent to be thoroughly examined.

You choose to dismiss it; I choose to be intrigued by it and appalled if this is what we have fallen to. Not because any of these guys were high level so and so's-they were released with out being charged whatsoever. One was kept for 5 years and released. These are not the bad dudes...maybe not even the junior bad dudes.

I choose to question it. Even if proven true, most of what I've seen alleged does not constitute "torture".

You don't know how bad they are, or aren't.

 

[believe09]

What I'm asking is if you would suggest hanging the governor of a state for treason if a handful of prisoners in his jail claimed (without any physical proof) that they had been tortured. If one said he had been sodomized but refused a physical exam. If others said their sexual torture included a cavity search and being forced to strip. If a psychologist (their psychologist) said they must have been tortured because he has clear evidence that they are suffering from PTSD. And they have some burn marks and scarring consistent with electric shock. Oh, but we don't have any records of whether or not they came in with those marks - and BTW, they arrived via a hellhole KNOWN for torture and mass murder.

Would you paint the entire population of their jailers with the broad brush of "criminals" and "rapists" and "animals" and other such slurs on this weak evidence?

Or would you even consider the fact that some of these prisoners might not be the innocent little angels they would like us to believe, and that they might just be slanting the facts the tiniest little bit to make it sound better for the rest of the world? Have you ever raised a middle schooler?

But because some guy from the New Yorker says so, we are supposed to assume that not only is our entire military fighting force full of such scum, but our Commander in Chief knows about it, condones it, and indeed jokes about it among his staff. He loves it, because, you know, it's his whole plan of crashing 4 planes and killing 3,000 people come to fruition.

GMAFB.

I am sorry-I don't get this at all...don't remember stating anyone should be painted with a broad brush etc, and that the prisoners were innocent and all the other rant here...

 

[believe09]

In the PP (Iraq war thread) I just updated it today.




Well, that's why I said "(I assume)"



I'm assuming Bin Laden was, we have no reason to believe differently.



Because we aren't complete savages and want to ensure we follow the Geneva convention and our own laws. I would be willing to bet that the first time a combatant screamed maltreatment, investigations were launched.



Not so. Some of the men would not consent to be thoroughly examined.




I choose to question it. Even if proven true, most of what I've seen alleged does not constitute "torture".

You don't know how bad they are, or aren't.

Ditto-that is the key here-we do not know how bad any of these dudes are except for the obvious ones.

Time may or may not tell if the US condoned torture during this war-we have seen pictures of Abu Ghraib, we have allegations made by certainly these 11 men and whomever else- we have had Congressional hearings to determine if torture is used by the military and civilian contractors in US run detention centers...I have not personally found the media to be particularly liberal leaning in the last 8 years, but if you choose to believe it is a witch hunt, so be it.

 

[angelmom]

I am sorry-I don't get this at all...don't remember stating anyone should be painted with a broad brush etc, and that the prisoners were innocent and all the other rant here...

Sorry, that last paragraph was not specifically directed at you. Some of the other posts on this thread have gotten me totally disgusted and POed. I need to back away from the computer.

 

[Trino]

I don't know if this has been posted, but it certainly doesn't paint Bush and Cheney in a good light.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_9616630

"...wasn't the product of U.S. military policy or the fault of a few rogue soldiers. It was largely the work of five White House, Pentagon and Justice Department lawyers who, following the orders of President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, reinterpreted or tossed out the U.S. and international laws that govern the treatment of prisoners in wartime, according to former U.S. defense and Bush administration officials."

 

[southcitymom]

......we are torturing detainees and what we gain/lose from doing that.

Of course we are. And it is heartbreaking and it is wrong. But it is how fearful people react. We have nothing to gain from it.

It will come home to roost - of this we can be certain.

 

[southcitymom]

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what?

To see what he likes on his pizza, I think.

 

[southcitymom]

I am sorry-I don't get this at all...don't remember stating anyone should be painted with a broad brush etc, and that the prisoners were innocent and all the other rant here...

Thank God for the Surpreme Court.

 

[absinthe]

Of course the Gitmo detainees are/were tortured. That is the entire purpose of the Gitmo facility -- so that the US can bypass international laws.

While I have little concern about individuals who truly are terrorists, the major problem with Gitmo is that there is no trial and no proof that any of the detainees are terrorists or that they did ANYTHING wrong. According to the American justice system, if you are Arab you are a terrorist and subject to torture. It is despicable!

"Road to Guantanamo" is based on a true story of young British men who traveled to Afghanistan via Pakistan for a family wedding at the time of the US invasion of Afghanistan and ended up spending years as detainees at Gitmo. The farce was eventually revealed but not all made it home alive.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/

:clap::furious:

 

[absinthe]

THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. http://

OMG thank you thank you Trino!

 

[absinthe]

I don't really understand the outrage here - they are being treated better than an American would be if they were accused of a crime in their country? Or even if they were accused? The presumption of innocence does not exist in all countries.

And no, not everyone beheaded Nick Berg or Daniel Pearle or Paul Johnson but for the most part, they are worse than animals over there...they behead their own women for their desire to make free choices....so you'll have to excuse me if I don't think that that pushing them around a bit is a crime.

I will never, ever understand this logic, that because another society gives its people less rights than we give ours, this is reason to treat them in the same way. I thought our country is supposed to be above that.

 

[ember]

Or would you even consider the fact that some of these prisoners might not be the innocent little angels they would like us to believe, and that they might just be slanting the facts the tiniest little bit to make it sound better for the rest of the world? Have you ever raised a middle schooler?

I had to laugh at that part because I am raising a middle schooler and she's great but some of the others....wow, they're so vicious and conniving!

I will never, ever understand this logic, that because another society gives its people less rights than we give ours, this is reason to treat them in the same way. I thought our country is supposed to be above that.

Excuse me but we're not beheading anyone!
I said I don't think there's anything wrong with intimidation tactics as long as it's not true torture and I stand by that.
I just don't think that sitting down with these guys over tea and saying "pretty please" is going to get them to tell us what they need to tell us.

btw, one of our guys here just came back from a 18 month duty at Gitmo.
This guy is a real stand up, fair guy and would never do anything that was dishonorable. He told me stories of Gitmo that I am sure would change your mind. He said even he was pushed to his limits.

For instance, one of the prisoners of Middle Eastern descent screamed that he had been raped by a guard, screamed that he was violated and not fit to serve Allah because he was entered by a man. You know homosexuality is no no for them....anyway, when they reviewed the tape of him throughout the day, they saw that he was engaged in "waffling" with another prisoner. Waffling is when one backs up to the chain link fence and the other enters him through the other side of the fence. The fence leaves little waffle shaped marks on their botoms so hence the term waffling. This prisoner didn't know that cameras are always on and was trying to get his guards in trouble.

There is alot more too it but that's the quick version as I should not be telling you any of this at all......but I just can't stand the fact that so many people feel sorry for these little b*st*rds who are so deceptive and not worthy of the your loyalty to fight for their rights. Most, not all, but most are snakes that will turn on you and bite you in a heartbeat to serve their only purpose....ALLAH!

So if it makes me a bad person that I don't think anything is wrong with a little intimidation and scare tactics, then so be it.
If it saves one American life, it's worth it to me.


I will never be able to understand why so many are willing to believe the words of barbarious devils over the words of our own people! It's not always so black and white.