Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[MyBelle]

Have the family asked to take her home? They've been saying that their only hope is a facility in NY so it implies to me that they don't think taking her home is an option. But the hospital statement said that they would agree to anything that was legally and ethically possible. People have taken care of their brain dead at home before.

The requirement that the receiving facility communicates with the hospital doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all. It happens all the time when people are transferred from one place to another. I can't see why the receiving facility wouldn't want to talk with the hospital, to make sure they have all the information that the family might not be able to communicate and to coordinate the practicalities of the transfer.

The reasons the family or the lawyer have cited for the facilities backing out included no beds left available, fear of alienating their own doctors and Jahi not having had the surgery for a feeding tube and a trach. No doubt unwillingness to be involved with the media frenzy also figures into it.

I've not seen anything that indicates the family wishes the body be taken to their home. Only speculation I've seen that it should happen is on this forum.

 

[K_Z]

It also doesn't say if the family or even the ICU nurses were aware all three procedures had been performed. But then, I wouldn't expect a legal document prepared by the hospital to reflect ALL of the facts.

These completely unfounded accusations against the ICU nurses really has to stop.

There is simply not a shred of evidence to accuse highly competent, educated, and experienced medical professionals as being unaware of what surgery their patient has had. That is just patently ridiculous. The procedures would be noted in NUMEROUS electronic documents, both pre and post op, would have been listed on the master surgery list for the day at the hospital (reserving her ICU bed after), and given in multiple verbal reports between staff.

These kind of comments are vastly inappropriate and highly inflammatory on a number of levels, IMO, and should be removed from this discussion.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Good morning friends. I have been editing a post for about 30 minutes. I am speechless. This child is with God already. Now it is a few hours for her body to stop being tortured. I am certain no respectable long-term care facility will take on a dead person - it would be unethical and dodgy.

 

[sherbetjello]

And yes, I think if the mother went to the media and said she wanted to take her baby home the hospital would let her. Would be much easier to let her do it than to fight it and deal with the bad publicity.

I agree to this, totally. I've been reading about DIY funerals at home. It's interesting and I think there is so much grace and reality with family in those final moments/days of death.

However, since Jahi is in a hospital, how and who would be responsible for taking Jahi to her home for something like this?

I would imagine, given her condition and lawyers present, this would have to be carefully planned out, if even legal.


(Welp, post #1318 by K_Z answered my questions!)

 

[MyBelle]

Of COURSE the hospital is insisting they must speak with whoever accepts this child's body! They MUST. To push her body out the door WITHOUT speaking with a receiving facility, AND the physician who would be accepting her body as a patient, would be illegal, immoral, unethical, and patently ridiculous. That is not a "line in the sand".

And the coroner HAS to agree with the transfer, if there is any. She is legally dead, and her case is a coroner's case!

IMO, the hospital outlined VERY reasonable conditions in which they would facilitate the transfer of her body to another facility.

fyi: the hospital initially refused to release her at all. They then reversed themselves and are now pretending they are cooperating.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...spital-oakland-agrees-release-jahi-conditions

Reversing a stand officials had taken hours earlier, Children's Hospital Oakland agreed Friday to release a 13-year-old brain-dead girl whose family had asked she be moved to another facility.

 

[rob]

The hospital all but said in their letter that they would consider doing the stomach tube and trach surgeries IF a place to send the body was found.

Why isn't the family just asking to take her HOME??? If they really believed she will wake up wouldn't any of us choose to take her HOME rather than let all support be turned off today? It makes no sense to me at all!

I have to wonder if there is going to be a "scene" or some such thing at the hospital if they turn the machines off at 5:00 today. I could see things getting ugly.

I'm not medical or legal, but it seems like since the court is now involved, they would have the say on is she being moved, will there be more sugery, or who will be present at the hospital if she is removed from the vent.
I agree, it could get ugly,I can see the family screaming, they killed Jahi!

 

[MissJ]

Of COURSE the hospital is insisting they must speak with whoever accepts this child's body! They MUST. To push her body out the door WITHOUT speaking with a receiving facility, AND the physician who would be accepting her body as a patient, would be illegal, immoral, unethical, and patently ridiculous. That is not a "line in the sand".

And the coroner HAS to agree with the transfer, if there is any. She is legally dead, and her case is a coroner's case!

IMO, the hospital outlined VERY reasonable conditions in which they would facilitate the transfer of her body to another facility.

Thank you!:twocents:

 

[MyBelle]

I'm not medical or legal, but it seems like since the court is now involved, they would have the say on is she being moved, will there be more sugery, or who will be present at the hospital if she is removed from the vent.
I agree, it could get ugly,I can see the family screaming, they killed Jahi!

I agree because the court has ruled she is legally dead. I just don't see the hospital or the coroner allowing her to go home on a ventilator.

 

[K_Z]

I agree but it all boils down to the perception of the family. It is very bizarre to me that a hospital administrator would be confronting the family at all. And apparently the child's surgeon wasn't present.

BBM. More baseless speculation, and inflammatory comments, IMO, that should be edited out of this discussion.

There is no way of knowing that the child's surgeon wasn't present, and it is inflammatory, speculative, and unfair to even suggest that the surgeons weren't involved with communication with this family UNTIL we have some evidence they weren't.

The most likely scenario is that MULTIPLE intensivists, surgeons, neurologists, and social workers talked MANY times with this family before Durand was involved. Either the family asked to speak to someone "higher up", or the staff asked him to become involved with communicating with this family. It was, and is, entirely appropriate for the Chief of Pediatrics to be involved representing the hospital in this very difficult situation, with a very adversarial family.

 

[sherbetjello]

I believe the hospital will be making another statement soon:

Hosp rep will speak to us around 10 am or so on the Jahi mcmath case. 13 year old girl declared brain dead following tonsillectomy on dec9th

https://twitter.com/KRON4WTran

And it seems family will be back in court this morning:

This is my mom and Jahi in the waiting room at Children's Hospital the day of her surgery, as u can see she is a beautiful girl and she did not deserve any of this that happened to her. Today is the big day so please pray for a good outcome in court because i can't imagine life without my sister this is so unfair she's only 13  #prayingforamedicalmiracle #teamjahi #prayforjahi

http://instagram.com/p/ijgJ3TI0hv/

 

[Softail]

fyi: the hospital initially refused to release her at all. They then reversed themselves and are now pretending they are cooperating.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...spital-oakland-agrees-release-jahi-conditions

Reversing a stand officials had taken hours earlier, Children's Hospital Oakland agreed Friday to release a 13-year-old brain-dead girl whose family had asked she be moved to another facility.

I don't see it as them pretending at all. I see it as they knew damn right well that no other facility would take a deceased person. So, they agreed. Knowing it wouldn't happen.

Oh, look where we are now. Not 1 facility has stepped up to take her. Not one doctor has agreed to put a feeding tube or trach in her.

Guess the hospital was right. :twocents:

 

[K_Z]

fyi: the hospital initially refused to release her at all. They then reversed themselves and are now pretending they are cooperating.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...spital-oakland-agrees-release-jahi-conditions

Reversing a stand officials had taken hours earlier, Children's Hospital Oakland agreed Friday to release a 13-year-old brain-dead girl whose family had asked she be moved to another facility.

Yup, they changed their position early on.

So, what evidence do you have that they are "pretending they are cooperating" NOW? They ARE cooperating. They have asked for 3 things to happen to accomplish transfer. They have officially stated that contrary to what the family tells the media, NO ONE from any receiving facility has contacted ANYONE from CHO about transfer.

They ARE cooperating. They are following the court's orders, and doing a lot of other things as well.

 

[Sonya610]

I would imagine, given her condition and lawyers present, this would have to be carefully planned out, if even legal.


(Welp, post #1318 by K_Z answered my questions!)

Home care provided by the family is different than a business being PAID to take care of her.

You can take care of your loved homes at home in many situations, give them shots and meds and such. Now if you wanted to get PAID to provide injections and such to friends or neighbor that is where being licensed comes in. If you aren't licensed it is illegal.

Just like people can care for their dead at home in many states however you can't open a mortuary in your garage and get paid for the services for taking care of the neighbors dead. It matters whether it is offered as a professional service.

 

[Minette]

This is my mom and Jahi in the waiting room at Children's Hospital the day of her surgery, as u can see she is a beautiful girl and she did not deserve any of this that happened to her. Today is the big day so please pray for a good outcome in court because i can't imagine life without my sister this is so unfair she's only 13  #prayingforamedicalmiracle #teamjahi #prayforjahi

Oh, that is SO SAD! And you know, it isn't fair what happened to Jahi. No 13 year old should have to die! But sometimes they do, and sometimes unfair things happen to beloved people of all ages, and it doesn't always have to be someone else's fault. (Maybe it is in this case, we just don't know.)

I know what it's like to be a big sister and I couldn't image life without my siblings either. But nothing is going to bring Jahi back and let her family live with her. She is gone, and it is so sad, and I hope the court will allow this poor girl to be taken off the ventilator so she can rest in peace and her family can accept her death and begin to grieve.

 

[otto]

I don't see it as them pretending at all. I see it as they knew damn right well that no other facility would take a deceased person. So, they agreed. Knowing it wouldn't happen.

Oh, look where we are now. Not 1 facility has stepped up to take her. Not one doctor has agreed to put a feeding tube or trach in her.

Guess the hospital was right. :twocents:

Keeping it in perspective, the family stated that they had a facility lined up, that insurance was willing to cover all costs, that transportation was available and that the coroner had signed off on their plan. The hospital responded with two conditions: that they speak with someone at the facility that would accept her, and that they are informed of transportation arrangements. This is where it all fell apart. This is when we learned that none of the family claims were true.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Yup, they changed their position early on.

So, what evidence do you have that they are "pretending they are cooperating" NOW? They ARE cooperating. They have asked for 3 things to happen to accomplish transfer. They have officially stated that contrary to what the family tells the media, NO ONE from any receiving facility has contacted ANYONE from CHO about transfer.

They ARE cooperating. They are following the court's orders, and doing a lot of other things as well.

Exactly right. Children's has behaved according to ethics, and have gone beyond. The family is just not getting the picture.

Five more hours until Jahi's body ceases to be tortured by her own family.

 

[Softail]

Teen on life support without options for relocation

OAKLAND, Calif. —

Time is running out for the family of Jahi McMath. The 13-year-old girl, having been declared brain dead by two doctors earlier this month, was set to be taken off life support Monday evening unless a court intervenes.

McMath's family may file a new appeal in an effort to try to prevent Children's Hospital Oakland from removing the girl from life support at 5 p.m. Monday -- a deadline set by a judge last week.

But at the same time the family was also dealing with the reality that there was nowhere to go for McMath. They learned the night before that a long term care facility in New York had pulled its offer to care for the teen. The New York facility was the family’s last option after a hospital in Los Angeles had rescinded its offer to host the child earlier Sunday.


http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/family-brain-dead-teen-now-has-no-options-relocati/ncYD8/

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I know some Orthodox Jews and a few other religions have fought against brain death diagnosis as dead, but I'd like to know what Jahi's pastor says about this.

Catholic teaching on brain death:

...Why does the Church accept this definition of death?

This is not a new definition of death but rather of the use of new signs to determine that death has occurred. The Christian understanding of death has always been that it is the separation of the soul from the body. The Catholic Church looks to the medical community to determine the biological signs that indicate with moral certainty that this event has already occurred. In recent years, medical research has indicated that the irreversible loss of brain function provides a firm indicator that death has already occurred.

What does Catholic theology say about this definition of death?

Neurological criteria are compatible with Catholic teaching that a human being is a substantial union of body and rational soul. When all brain function is completely and irreversibly lost, this may be taken as a reasonable indicator that the rational soul is no longer present...

http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1285

 

[K_Z]

If you read the declaration by the mother, she details how the family has been treated specifically by the Hospital administrator, Dr. Durand. He has repeatedly refused their request for Jahi's medical records. He's yelled at them and was so disrespectful to her mother, a nurse, that the mother left the room.

I must say from my own experience working for a medical school/teaching hospital for five years, her description would fit some of the doctors I worked with, especially if the doctor was in an administrative position. Some doctors are better administrators than they are clinicians providing direct patient care. Some doctors do act like they are on the same plane as God.

There really is no excuse for this kind of antagonistic behavior toward a grief-stricken family.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder. Without more evidence that the Chief of Pediatrics was out of line with this family, I cannot accept the family's version of events as completely accurate.

They are angry, grief stricken, and very entrenched in painful denial. None of those things contributes to accuracy and clarity in perception. They had to be told MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE people that their child has died. And they still refuse to accept that. So I have doubts about their version and interpretation of the behavior of the Chief of Pediatrics.

I'm really sorry you had to work with such difficult docs. That experience seems to have negatively shaped your perceptions of all health care providers. Thankfully, "difficult doctors" are a real rarity nowadays.

 

[MyBelle]

Keeping it in perspective, the family stated that they had a facility lined up, that insurance was willing to cover all costs, that transportation was available and that the coroner had signed off on their plan. The hospital responded with two conditions: that they speak with someone at the facility that would accept her, and that they are informed of transportation arrangements. This is where it all fell apart. This is when we learned that none of the family claims were true.

What did they claim that has been found to be untrue? Has the coroner denied signing off on a plan?