Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

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Elley, while studying to be a nurse, the one thing we were drilled on was to always provide support, to listen and try to guide to be non-judgmental and if unsuccessful continue to provide support.


I mentioned somewhere yesterday that I spent all of yesterday in the L&D dept at the hospital. I can not stress how fantastic the nurses were. They had a pillow behind my back before I noticed I was uncomfortable. They rubbed my toes, spoke so gently and lovingly to keep my calm, brought me water, talked to me about any and everything, were overall so kind, respectful, reassuring and sweet. They all genuinely seemed like they wanted to be there and caring for me. I'm not sure how much this adds to the conversation but I wanted to throw it out there.
 
It was made to sound like a routine procedure when my husband had the exact same surgery two years ago.
And he Did not stay overnight. It was an outpatient surgery.

So I do NOT have a hard time believing this mother was lead to believe it was no big deal.


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Which one of the three surgeries did he have? I hope he did well. ty
 
It was made to sound like a routine procedure when my husband had the exact same surgery two years ago.
And he Did not stay overnight. It was an outpatient surgery.

So I do NOT have a hard time believing this mother was lead to believe it was no big deal.


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But they knew beforehand that this would NOT be outpatient. So, they must have known it was different from other tonsillectomies
 
If Jahi is dead, how is she being abused? If Jahi is dead, how are they not allowing her to die a dignified death? She's already dead. The dying process is over. Here's what I stated previously about dignity for Jahi:

Jahi's soul is in heaven. She experiences none of this. We show dignity to bodies out of respect for the family. We know what her family wants.

And it's not as if Jahi's corpse is being drop kicked all over the place. Or otherwise desecrated. What's happening to her body is the physical manifestation of her family's pain and horror. But for them, it is enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. Jahi has all the dignity a child could ever have, in the enduring, passionate love of her traumatized family.

I completely agree and also feel that the dignity that Jahi deserves is tarnished by comments against her mother. Jahi most likely loved her mother and would trust decisions her mother might have to make for her. I am not going to consider comments made by the uncle or attorney. It is all about Jahi and her mother now. I am all for giving the mother the time she needs since it will all end too soon for her anyway.
 
Sadly, there has been precious little reason surrounding this matter. The mother indicated in an interview that she would take the conclusion of the unaffiliated physician regarding her daughter's brain death as confirmation because she was distrustful of the CHO-affiliated physicians. This was 9 days and several exams with identical results later. When that pediatric neurologist verified brain death she refused to believe. Even a judge had to make the determination that Jahi was, in fact, brain dead.

I fully sympathize with the family. No one should have to lose a child. It's an incredibly painful experience. If we left the matter up to parents, however, there would be millions of kids around the world in iron lungs towing heart-lung machines. Taking that decision out of the hands of parents when a brain death has been confirmed by multiple independent experts is the kindest thing we can do for parents. And yes, this may just be my opinion, but I have buried a child... so it's a painfully qualified opinion.




Nature makes that decision for us pretty quickly. But I think what's reasonable varies on a case by case basis. It is rare for families to hold on for long with hope after brain death and only a few have religious beliefs that mandate the body by preserved. So I think the shrieks about "precedent" reflect hysteria more than reality.

Also, those who believe Jahi's corpse will visibility rot in front of everyone's eyes need to research a bit more. Her heart will stop soon, within days, I'm betting.
 
But they knew beforehand that this would NOT be outpatient. So, they must have known it was different from other tonsillectomies


I really think they knew it wasn't gonna be a textbook tonsilectomy but the lawyer and uncle are now spinning it to be a normal procedure to make the hospital look bad. I can't for a second imagine even the worse surgeon not explain this. Or as a mother not asking a million questions until I knew what was going on.
 
But they knew beforehand that this would NOT be outpatient. So, they must have known it was different from other tonsillectomies

Oh, I am sure they knew my friend. I am sure the pediatric surgeon at CHO explained to them the procedure(s), the complication(s), the recovery time, yada yada yada.

Does this mean they shouldn't grieve because their child died of post-op complications? Hells noes. But it does mean that they do not get to cast a horrible net of icky over a respected and dedicated institution like Children's Hospital. imho, bla bla bla, etc.
 
First you quoted:

IMO, this is not enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. This is distracting them for coping, facing and accepting the process. The encouragement from other sources to continue on with false stories of recovered brain dead relatives is furthering the denial.



This is not healthy and as a society we should help those that are not healthy. We shouldn't encourage them to stay unhealthy by agreeing with them or telling them lies.



When and where does it stop? It has already been implemented in law that brain death is death. Does society entertain everyone that doesn't feel their relative is dead and we just throw everything out the window and say they can take deceased individuals home to do with as they please, or put them in facilities that are unlicensed and allow them to be experimented on by those that don't feel brain death is death?



Do we sit back and watch while the court systems are tied up with cases of those that don't want to allow the deceased go, despite laws and all medical criteria being established that they are indeed deceased?



IMO, Jahi is not being given respect and dignity by those directly involved with this mission and I have a right to stand up for this child if I wish. Even the deceased deserve dignity and respect and this precious child most certainly does.



And YOU said:

That's your opinion. I don't happen to share it. Not everyone does.





Then you quoted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by threecrazykids View Post

Her BODY is being abused, not her spirit. I am referring to the treatment and dignity of her corpse.

We, as a society, have thankfully passed laws as a whole about the mistreatment of corpses. We simply can't allow people to just do whatever they want until they come to grips with that corpses final resting place.



And I beg to differ with you that her body isn't being "drop kicked" all over the place. What they are doing with her body (in essence allowing it to rot from the inside out) is worse than drop kicking it. Her tissues are breaking down, fluids are leaking, and the body itself is literally decomposing on a hospital bed. You think that's ok as long as the parents are willing to sit around and watch it? That is not enduring, passionate love of a family. I'm sorry. It's mentally unstable to want to sit and watch your child decompose while you take your time accepting the reality of what lies before them.



And YOU said:

See my comment above (AKA: That's your opinion. I don't happen to share it.)





I believe I am being rational

How can I NOT think that you're not advocating the opposite of what we said?

You replied to BOTH of our posts stating you don't happen to share our opinions - both of which were advocating for the basis of laws that do NOT allow the mistreatment of corpses (which would IMO include families giving the "right" to take however long they "need" with a corpse to "accept" a persons death).



:dunno:


The court found a basis in law to allow this move.

The law obviously isn't clear enough and further refinement is necessary.

This case brings up obvious problems with several important issues.
Parenting rights
Religion

Terminating parental rights without a trial? Mom needs to consent and sign her into hospital for surgery but gives up all rights to make medical decisions on behalf of her child when the child suffers a catastrophic medical issue?

The child is considered dead there but qualifies as living in New Jersey? What?





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I mentioned somewhere yesterday that I spent all of yesterday in the L&D dept at the hospital. I can not stress how fantastic the nurses were. They had a pillow behind my back before I noticed I was uncomfortable. They rubbed my toes, spoke so gently and lovingly to keep my calm, brought me water, talked to me about any and everything, were overall so kind, respectful, reassuring and sweet. They all genuinely seemed like they wanted to be there and caring for me. I'm not sure how much this adds to the conversation but I wanted to throw it out there.


That's why when they told me, "Ok Mrs. New Mom, you're ready to take the baby home" I almost cried. I wanted to either stay or take the nurses with me.
 
But they knew beforehand that this would NOT be outpatient. So, they must have known it was different from other tonsillectomies

We can only guess what Jahi's mother understood or what and how it was explained to her. Whether her mother thought this was a simple same day surgery situation or one that required intensive care would not have changed the outcome.
 
I agree. Alone a simple/routine T&A can even be done in an outpatient ambulatory surgery center. The fact that Jahi was scheduled to go to the ICU for a portion of her recovery before the multiple procedures were even started tells me this was anything but simple/routine. JMO


Do we know for a fact she was indeed scheduled?


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May I ask you if you personally believe brain death = death? I'm trying to understand your point of view and I'm trying to stay respectful.

I do. I think there is no way of recovering from that. I also have strong opinions about grief and compassion and respect for religious beliefs.
 
No. They didn't. They took measures to put pressure on the hospital and to garner support so that the plug would not be pulled. They did what they felt was necessary to prevent that and guess what? It worked.

Did publicity invite a national conversation about death, religion, malpractice, belief, end of life decisions, cost of care, legalities surrounding the definition of death, etc.? Absolutely. But it did not give free license to rip these people to shreds or bash them publicly.

That's kind of like saying celebrities invited the stalking by the paparazzi because they are celebrities. I disagree.

I think the ventilator should be disconnected...but I absolutely refuse to bash the family in any way.

And I'll address the uncle and the $30k.
The video of the uncle mentioning the $30k was on Dec 17, they had just gotten the attorney CD. In CD's letter to the hospital sent in the middle of the night (I think 3 am) on Dec 17, he mentions the $250k cap and that it would be cheaper for the hospital if the ventilator was pulled. The uncle is just pulling a number $30k out of his head at that point for medical care, and he's not talking about any civil rights suits because the attorney had only entered the case a few hours before that.

I think the largest medical malpractice suit in California is $17k for an infant.
 
In case anyone missed it, this is the start of the lawsuit, filed by Dolan. In the first couple of pages, Dolan states that the patient had a routine tonsillectomy and then suffered brain damage. We know that is not true.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195185964...ec-30-2013-McMath-Civil-Rights-Lawsuit-filing

Wonder if the attorney is getting the information from the mother or uncle? Sounds like he needs to do his homework or better read what his law clerk prepared for him!
 
It was made to sound like a routine procedure when my husband had the exact same surgery two years ago.
And he Did not stay overnight. It was an outpatient surgery.

So I do NOT have a hard time believing this mother was lead to believe it was no big deal.


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From reading over the past couple days/weeks it seems these surgeries are pretty routine when done in adults. imo
 
I understand that Jahi is not suffering, but as a society, we've agreed that there are standards of ethics for the treatment of the deceased.

If the Lord wants to make a miracle and bring her back to life, He is capable of doing so at any time without these Dr. Frankenstein efforts on the part of the family and whatever "professionals" are playing along with these delusions.

Just my own point of view.
 
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