Fiber Evidence

[capps]

If I'm not mistaken,when Fleet arrived he stood outside talking to people (police?) for a few minutes,when he entered the house he went straight to the cellar ... so I guess going to the cellar first,isn't so strange.

 

[capps]

Posted by Nuisanceposter:
"For all I know, JR put that suitcase there himself as a prop before pointing it out"

If JR put that suitcase there,he sure didn't do his son JAR any favors!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Posted by Nuisanceposter:
"For all I know, JR put that suitcase there himself as a prop before pointing it out"

If JR put that suitcase there,he sure didn't do his son JAR any favors!

I'd bet JAR was out of the state, and not really fitting the 'sadistic child murderer' profile, anyway. As far as JR putting the suitcase there himself as a 'prop', thats just a claim based on pure conjecture.

 

[ellen13]

:waitasec: Well, and here is another point I want to make. Fleet claimed he went in that room first and didn't see a thing. John then goes in and they said John actually yelled before he even turned the light on and it was pitch black in there. How can this be explained?

 

[aussiesheila]

Very interesting. Let's see...a sexual device, and a comforter with semen near the crime scene. Dark fibers on the child that possibly came from that comforter.

Just what are you suggesting Nehemiah? You have not made it at all clear.

 

[aussiesheila]

Going straight down the basement to the room next to the one she was in and discussing strange yet misdirecting broken windows (that he said he may have broken himself) and suitcases for a minute or two and then opening the door to find JonBenet is still basically a beeline in my estimation. How did John see her right away when Fleet said he checked that room himself earlier in the day and saw nothing because it was too dark in there?

I'd like to know how you can be so sure that Fleet DIDN'T see her. I know that's what he SAID, but how do you know he was telling the truth? My opinion is that she was there when Fleet looked and he DID see her even if he did go back upstairs and say he saw nothing. In other words I think HE was the one who was lying.

 

[aussiesheila]

Nuisanceposter,

Yes, ONE of the Ramseys put the suitcase under the window, and it was likely John. John had been in the basement PRIOR to the 911 call at 5:52 AM. By his own admission during the police interviews he said he had to remove a chair from in front of the trainroom door before he could enter the room.

Yet, Officer Rick French had entered the trainroom a couple of minutes after 6:00 AM and the chair wasn't blocking the door; and Fleet White had entered the trainroom at around 6:20 AM and the chair wasn't blocking the way. This proves John Ramsey had entered the trainroom BEFORE either French or White.

IMO the Ramseys had found JonBenet's body at least two hours before they placed the 911 call -- and they had re-arranged the crime scene to cover for the perp, a family member.

BlueCrab

You are twisting things again BlueCrab.

You have made two assertions:

1. "ONE of the Ramseys put the suitcase under the window"

2. "John had been in the basement PRIOR to the 911 call at 5:52 AM."

NEITHER a proven fact, yet you use them as such from which to draw your conclusion that "John Ramsey had entered the trainroom BEFORE either French or White". This would score a FAIL in any logic exam.

John said he did not go down to the basement prior to the arrival of the police. He said he did not go down until about 9, 10, 11 am. John said when he went down there the chair was IN the doorway and he moved it. He simply implied that the chair was out of place and he moved it to where he thought it should be. This is NOT the same as saying "the chair was BLOCKING the doorway and I couldn't enter the room while it was in that position so I moved it and then I was able to enter the room".

It is quite likely that the chair was in that exact same position IN the doorway when Officer French went down to the basement a couple of minutes after 6:00 am (BEFORE) John and that he simply left the chair where it was and squeezed past it to enter the room. In compiling his report he did not comment on the chair being in the doorway because he wouldn't have thought it notable that a chair was in the doorway when the whole basement was in disarray anyway. And we've all seen the photos of the state of the basement.

 

[UKGuy]

To say the fibers were found 'tied into' the cord is not very remarkable, since JBR's hair was also found in the cord, and naturally PR's jacket fibers would be prevalent in JBR's hair, especially if PR wore the jacket the previous day.

What is so unusual about finding JBR's mother's clothing fibers just about anywhere on or near JBR, or anywhere else in her house? She lived there, her clothing fibers would be everywhere.

But what is remarkable, is that given we have an experienced EA pepretrator, he entwines JonBenet's hair in the EA device.

Normally the fibers would be a smoking gun in the way that foreign dna is but since its family well its open to debate.

The red flag is patsy breaking her cardinal dress code rule, and re-wearing her party outfit the following day.

 

[UKGuy]

You are twisting things again BlueCrab.

You have made two assertions:

1. "ONE of the Ramseys put the suitcase under the window"

2. "John had been in the basement PRIOR to the 911 call at 5:52 AM."

NEITHER a proven fact .

John said he did not go down to the basement prior to the arrival of the police. He said he did not go down until about 9, 10, 11 am. John said when he went down there the chair was IN the doorway and he moved it. He implied that the chair was out of place and he moved it to where he thought it should be. This is NOT the same as saying "the chair was BLOCKING the doorway and I couldn't enter the room while it was in that position so I moved it and then I was able to enter the room".

It is quite likely that the chair was in that exact same position IN the doorway when Officer French went down to the basement soon after 5:52 am (BEFORE) John and that he simply left the chair where it was and squeezed past it to enter the room. In compiling his report he did not comment on the chair being in the doorway because he wouldn't have thought it notable that a chair was in the doorway when the whole basement was in disarray anyway. And we've all seen the photos of the state of the basement.

aussiesheila,

So are the statements the Ramsey's offer you for what occurred that night, simply assertions, their statements are also not proven fact, and have not been tested in court.

Somebody placed the suitcase in the basement, since its a Ramsey residence, unless the basement is considered as left-luggage for other Boulderites, then it seems fair to assume a Ramsey placed it there.

If you do not think a Ramsey is guilty then you can accept John's account of rising, showering to be told JonBenet has been abducted, and read the ransom note in his underwear.

Else he may be aware of what occurred, assisted in a revised staging, certainly at a minimum would review the basement as a crime-scene location, even if he did no more.

It is also possible that the Ramsey's were involved in some kind of conspiracy which allowed JonBenet to be taken alive from the house that night, but she was returned deceased. And it is the conspiracy that generates the staging, it is also another explanation for all the spells of amnesia, and concern by other main players as to their legal situation. They are all covering themselves in case fingers get pointed in open court!

 

[rashomon]

The red flag is patsy breaking her cardinal dress code rule, and re-wearing her party outfit the following day.

Absolutely. When she opened the door, her hair and make-up was in place also. The inference one can draw is that she never went to bed on that night.
Highly suspicious also that Patsy wanted the jeans she had been wearing on Dec 26 to be brought to her later from 1500 miles away. She probably wanted to eliminate fiber evidence.

It is true that fibers from family members are all around the place where they live.
But certain sourced fibers may very well be damaging evidence. For example, if we have fibers from Patsy's jacket both in the paint tray as well as between JonBenet's neck and the garotte, this can't be explained away so easily imo.

 

[BlueCrab]

:waitasec: Well, and here is another point I want to make. Fleet claimed he went in that room first and didn't see a thing. John then goes in and they said John actually yelled before he even turned the light on and it was pitch black in there. How can this be explained?

ellen13,

When Fleet White opened the door to the wine room at about 6:20 AM he leaned in and peered around, but didn't go into the room. It was dark in the room because it was still dark outside (the sun didn't rise until 7:20 AM that day), but there had to be some light or Fleet wouldn't have been able to even see the latch on the door to open it. Also, the door had recently been painted white and what little light there was would have been reflected into the room.

Fleet claims he would have seen JonBenet lying on the floor almost directly in front of him and wrapped in a white blanket, HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

When John Ramsey opened the door to the wine room at 1:05 PM it was sunny outside and the nearby window in the furnace room allowed ample light to flow into the wine room.

I tend to agree with Fleet White that he would have seen JonBenet had she been there. I think John Ramsey, unnerved that the body hadn't been found, moved the body to the easier-to-find location in the wine room at around 10:00 AM after the cops failed to find it in their earlier searches. John admits he had snuck down into the basement by himself at about that time.

IMO the fall-out between Fleet White and John Ramsey revolves around Fleet's looking into the wine room and not seeing a body at 6:20 AM, and the body then showing up almost directly in front of the door at 1:05 PM.

IOW Fleet knows John had to have moved the body and a Ramsey is therefore involved in the murder of JonBenet.

BlueCrab

 

[ellen13]

ellen13,

When Fleet White opened the door to the wine room at about 6:20 AM he leaned in and peered around, but didn't go into the room. It was dark in the room because it was still dark outside (the sun didn't rise until 7:20 AM that day), but there had to be some light or Fleet wouldn't have been able to even see the latch on the door to open it. Also, the door had recently been painted white and what little light there was would have been reflected into the room.

Fleet claims he would have seen JonBenet lying on the floor almost directly in front of him and wrapped in a white blanket, HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

When John Ramsey opened the door to the wine room at 1:05 PM it was sunny outside and the nearby window in the furnace room allowed ample light to flow into the wine room.

I tend to agree with Fleet White that he would have seen JonBenet had she been there. I think John Ramsey, unnerved that the body hadn't been found, moved the body to the easier-to-find location in the wine room at around 10:00 AM after the cops failed to find it in their earlier searches. John admits he had snuck down into the basement by himself at about that time.

IMO the fall-out between Fleet White and John Ramsey revolves around Fleet's looking into the wine room and not seeing a body at 6:20 AM, and the body then showing up almost directly in front of the door at 1:05 PM.

IOW Fleet knows John had to have moved the body and a Ramsey is therefore involved in the murder of JonBenet.

BlueCrab

Thanks Blue Crab! :clap: I needed a good theory today!! I've always wondered about this, but I came so late to WS, that I might have missed this discussion and there's so much to go back and read through.
Ellen13

 

[Nuisanceposter]

You should always feel free to ask any time you are wondering about something. Most people I have encountered on crime sites are more than willing to recount information when asked, and it often opens new discussion, especially from newer people. That's the way to solve cases, by discussing and examining again and again with as many points of view as possible.

When I had heard there had been a falling out between John Ramsey and Fleet White, I assumed that it meant Fleet decided some or all of the Ramseys were involved in JonBenet's murder. Blue Crab's body moving theory makes good sense. Any thoughts on where JonBenet was hidden prior to John relocating her?

 

[ellen13]

:twocents: Thanks Nuisanceposter!

If the body was moved, I believe it was moved from a different part of the basement, although I have no idea why.Then,
JR probably thought about it and decided she should be found. He had probably contemplated all morning how to handle it.
I'm sorry, but I really don't have much to contribute. I'm just here more to learn and ask basic questions. I go back and forth about this case. I'll have a theory
and then I'll read something, which will totally change my mind.
In terms of my own theory as of now:
I think in my gut, I believe that BR killed her by accident or out of fear she would tell her parents that he had molested her and the parents covered it up. I think BR was not sophisticated enough for EA, but that JR and PR set that whole thing up to make it look that way after she was killed. This is mainly what sticks in my head daily and I do have a hard time believing it was an intruder.
I remember reading (forgot the source) that Patsy's father once got Patsy a book for Burke about acting appropriate sexually-something about teaching a child about inappropriate sexual behavior. Does anyone remember reading this? I mean, BR could have violated her with objects, which explains the condition of her vagina. She could have threatened to tell on her and he hit her or strangled her.
In terms of the RN, I read a lot of things posted on boards written by people around the world and I think that foreigners have a way of speaking and spelling in English, which differs slightly from our semantics and syntax and have taught children with parents of all nationalities. That RN looks like it was written by an American.
This is what I feel in my gut. Like I said before, I just read Sharon Rocha's book, For Laci, and there was a psychic in there who told Sharon where the body would be found and how she was killed. The psychic was very accurate in terms of where the bodies were actually found one month later. I want that psychic on this case!!!
PS: for those of you who are interested in the Laci story (off topic), Sharon's book about Laci was great and it helped me to take a break from this for a while. I think reading about a case where there is certainty about the killer makes me have a clearer perspective on this case. Once again, here is my quote::boohoo:
If it looks like a rat, and smells like a rat, it's probably a rat!!

 

[Nehemiah]

ellen13,

When Fleet White opened the door to the wine room at about 6:20 AM he leaned in and peered around, but didn't go into the room. It was dark in the room because it was still dark outside (the sun didn't rise until 7:20 AM that day), but there had to be some light or Fleet wouldn't have been able to even see the latch on the door to open it. Also, the door had recently been painted white and what little light there was would have been reflected into the room.

Fleet claims he would have seen JonBenet lying on the floor almost directly in front of him and wrapped in a white blanket, HAD SHE BEEN THERE.

When John Ramsey opened the door to the wine room at 1:05 PM it was sunny outside and the nearby window in the furnace room allowed ample light to flow into the wine room.

I tend to agree with Fleet White that he would have seen JonBenet had she been there. I think John Ramsey, unnerved that the body hadn't been found, moved the body to the easier-to-find location in the wine room at around 10:00 AM after the cops failed to find it in their earlier searches. John admits he had snuck down into the basement by himself at about that time.

IMO the fall-out between Fleet White and John Ramsey revolves around Fleet's looking into the wine room and not seeing a body at 6:20 AM, and the body then showing up almost directly in front of the door at 1:05 PM.

IOW Fleet knows John had to have moved the body and a Ramsey is therefore involved in the murder of JonBenet. BlueCrab

If JR indeed moved the body, he would have been taking a huge chance by placing it in this room. He already knew that French and FW had both searched the basement. Unbeknownst to him, either of the two could have gone inside the wine cellar room and walked all thru it. So then for JR to move the body into there would have been a BIG waving red flag.

 

[Voice of Reason]

But what is remarkable, is that given we have an experienced EA pepretrator, he entwines JonBenet's hair in the EA device.

UKGuy,

I think this is an excellent point and should be considered in greater detail. The hair entwined in the garrotte, IMO, suggests haste and total disregard for JBR. If this was a recurring sexual game, I don't think you would find hair within the knot of the garrotte. The only way I see that as possible, would be if the perp KNEW that this was the last time he'd be abusing JBR. Also, doesn't this suggest that the knot was tied with the rope already around her neck? If it was made before going around her neck, it wouldn't have her hair tied into it. My conclusion is that she is already unconscious, from either a stun gun or a blow to the head, and the garrotte was applied as staging.

 

[UKGuy]

If JR indeed moved the body, he would have been taking a huge chance by placing it in this room. He already knew that French and FW had both searched the basement. Unbeknownst to him, either of the two could have gone inside the wine cellar room and walked all thru it. So then for JR to move the body into there would have been a BIG waving red flag.

Nehemiah,

That sounds reasonable, but was the wine-cellar not locked, or snibbed, could John have noticed this prior and later decided nobody had looked in there?

Given the importance of the initial search surely FW would not have simply glanced into the wine-cellar, he would want to be certain he had cleared that area.

It does seem like a big risk to move the body, but why did FW not see her, not seeing is no excuse for not walking in and making sure there is nobody there, after all he is the person who related his experience with his own daughter?

Either she was there and we are tilting at windmils, or she was moved, and if so, what occurred upstairs that motivated John to relocate JonBenet? Also where could she have been before, in the suitcase, in the washing machine, dryer, a packing box?

I'll speculate she was inside something and its this that caused the abrasions on her body. Something made John decide she would be better found in the wine-cellar, probably redressed in her Barbie-Gown. Assuming this , then possibly he recognized there was something about her then current disposition that did not fit with the ransom note and phone call?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

She was in full rigor mortis when John carried her upstairs around 1 p.m. I understand rigor mortis sets in on the average about 3 or 4 hours after death, and is fully complete in about 12 hours. If JonBenet died around 1 a.m., she would have been stiffening already by the time Patsy dialed 911. So if she was being moved around and relocated, wherever she had been hidden must have allowed for her to left lying prone, or she would have been in a different pose.

 

[sissi]

Absolutely. When she opened the door, her hair and make-up was in place also. The inference one can draw is that she never went to bed on that night.
Highly suspicious also that Patsy wanted the jeans she had been wearing on Dec 26 to be brought to her later from 1500 miles away. She probably wanted to eliminate fiber evidence.

It is true that fibers from family members are all around the place where they live.
But certain sourced fibers may very well be damaging evidence. For example, if we have fibers from Patsy's jacket both in the paint tray as well as between JonBenet's neck and the garotte, this can't be explained away so easily imo.

The BPD claims to have vacuumed closets in "hopes" of finding matching fibers to those found on her body. There were many that couldn't be sourced in laundry or closets, as well as animal hairs. In fact, IF Patsy had beaver fur boots, they would have found another beaver hair in the closet, they did not!

 

[Nehemiah]

Nehemiah,
That sounds reasonable, but was the wine-cellar not locked, or snibbed, could John have noticed this prior and later decided nobody had looked in there?

Not locked, but latched.

FW claimed to have looked in there.

My point is that JR didn't know exactly who had done what down there, and for him to go down and recreate seems very risky.