Wha...what? I'm confused.
- I am saying while the evidence indicates she was drowned it does not exclude her being drowned elsewhere and her body dumped in the tank at a later point. I do not claim this is the most probably scenario, but stranger things have happened (eg elevator footage)
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Different people have different ways of looking at things. Some people accept the law of parsimony and I respect their right to do so. But some people prefer to exclude alternate, but less direct possibilities prior to accepting the findings.
In relation to loss of consciousness, the drugs which show up in a toxicology screen after three weeks in a water tank are not the only cause. I have seen patients lose consciousness for a variety of reasons without and drug involvement. In relation to people doing things without sustaining physical injury, surely it is not that significant a leap to consider the possibility of one acting under the threat of physical injury rather than any actual physical injury... I am sure you have seen pirate movies where people walk the plank without ever being struck by the blade that trails them along their walk. It does not require a significant magnitude of deviation in thought to arise at some scenarios that are not particularly far fetched in comparison to what is the current explanation for what happened to Elisa Lam.
The need to turn everything into a subjective matter and referring to queries as "absurd conspiracy theories" is really unnecessary. If you feel this way, then feel free to allow discussion to continue between those who seek more answers before accepting the LAPD determination to do so in a positive manner. If your family member has drowned in obscure circumstance, sans wounds or significant toxicology finding, you may be content dismissing it as accidental/suicide, but not everyone feels that way.
<mod snip> Some people are not happy to equate LAPD statements as being scientific fact.
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We will never have an answer to why Elisa ended up in that tank; why she would ever enter the tank on her own accord -- but from every facet of the case, she did indeed do so.
It's more appeasing to believe that someone else was involved, because it caters to our inherent need for answers. Sometimes, in our desperation to solve a mystery, we end up sustaining and harboring it that much more.
If people dismiss things without pushing for answers then of course we will not get answers. History has proven this time and time again. Pushing for answers does not guarantee an answer, but occasionally a sufficient dissatisfaction for incongruity will yield some answers.
For me it is not more appeasing (sic) to believe someone else was involved. I would prefer if it was an accidental drowning. I don't want there to be someone running around who was involved directly or indirectly in the death of Elisa Lam. Regarding the Lam family finding out Elisa died in a different way to what they were initially told, I cannot comment on their wants and needs. The fact is if someone is murdered, we do not dismiss the case as accidental and cease investigation on account of the murder finding being displeasing to the family. For society as a whole, it is important to have the truth so as to equip society to better defend against these violations occuring in the future as well as hopefully apprehending any parties involved in criminal activity. I cannot speak on behalf of Elisas family, but if it was my family member I would want to have a somewhat more definitive basis for the cause of death.
rsbm --
Yes, we may never have an answer to 'why', as this is likely something so deeply personal, as is much mental illness. But at this point, we do have an answer for 'how', which may be phrased in different ways: on her own accord; by her own doing; by her actions alone.
Nobody else had any responsibility for the events immediately leading up to her death.
<mod snip> All we know for fact is that Elisa Lam drowned and she did not sustain any significant injuries that could be directly attributed to her death. How she got into the tank is not entirely clear, and any theory on how she got into the tank is speculative.
When there is no scientific evidence or any evidence at all to support a crime being committed; people tend to have to make things up and in the process come up with some pretty far-out stories, beliefs and theories.
This was not someone found dead in their bathtub in their locked room. This was someone found dead some 11 or so floors above where they were staying in an area they should not have known about or have had access to. For some the circumstances require further explanation.
The concept of a young Chinese/Canadian female tourist staying in an area that could be described as one of the most dangerous in LA, ascending multiple floors into a permanent resident area of the building, engaging in a few minutes of obscure behaviour on elevator footage in this area, walking to the roof, climbing onto the top of a water tank, removing their clothes and then throwing them into the tank, falling into the tank by accident without getting injured in the process and then drowning seems a bit far fetched also. When that is the best we have, I dont believe it is unreasonable to have people postulate other scenarios that the evidence does not exclude to some extent.
If the family truly believed it murder, they would not be suing the hotel. Perhaps we could respect their wishes.
edited to add: <mod snip> Within the rules of WS, and using only the evidence we have, please explain how this happened, and just as importantly, why you think this is the case, despite all of the expert evidence to the contrary.
<mod snip> Perhaps her family are discontent with the ruling and feel that by pushing the case against the hotel they will get more answers. I am not in her family, so I cannot know what they are thinking. But in their situation, I would sue the hotel also if that was my last possible avenue of seeking answers for how this could have happened to my daughter.
I think some people are disappointed by the fact that the answer to a seemingly complicated case is much simpler than they thought it would be: Elisa got onto the rooftop and willingly climbed into the water tank and died as a result of drowning. I also think it's not fair to her family that people who didn't even know their daughter come up with all sorts of gruesome theories about her death. It must be hard for them to accept what she did and are probably wondering what she was thinking at that time. So if they don't know, then why should a bunch of internet strangers know?
I do think that her mental ilness ultimately led to her death and I dont know if I've mentioned this before but I also think she wasn't taking her medication adequately. For example, she was prescribed 60 caps of the standard Venlafaxine (150 mg) and 60 of Venlafaxine 75 mg and she was supposed to take each of one every day, together. The numbers of remaining caps are uneven: 64 and 60. But my assumption is only based on the number of pills prescribed, on the one of those remaining and the directions of use. But then again I'm not familiar with how prescription medication works in the U.S or Canada. But I'm assuming since it's psychiatric medication involved you get a certain amount that will suffice you until your next appointment.
Also, if she wasn't taking it accordingly, I can completely understand why. It's a bit difficult for such a young person to understand the implications of mental illness and deal with the side effects of these medications.
Again you are speculating - we do not know if Elisa got into the water tank willingly or if she fell in by accident. <mod snip> If some people have questions in relation to the case, then they are also entitled to ask them. If Elisa was my daughter, I would be devastated, but I would want answers, and I would want to know what can be done to prevent this happening in the future - and without having a clear understanding of the cause we cannot know where to start. Tiptoeing around the implication this was a suicide secondary to mental illness is not fair on the family, and not fair on those who suffer mental illnesses in the absence of evidence to substantiate that as fact.
A discrepancy of 4 tablets could again be for a number of reasons and not necessarily attributable to her not taking one of her medications for a number of days immediately preceding the incident. Perhaps before even leaving canada she accidentally spilt the container and dropped a few pills down the sink? Perhaps she lost a blister pack of tablets while she was out somewhere and as a result had a 4 pill discrepancy? Perhaps her doctor did not start her on all the medications at exactly the same time? The discrepancy of 4 tablets does not prove anything in relation to Elisa Lam's adherence to her medications.
As far as Elisa's understanding of her condition, it would be prudent to peruse her blog. She was a very switched on girl and seemed to be quite involved in her treatment for someone of her age. She had a fairly good understanding of her condition as well as the need for the psychiatric and medicinal aspects of her treatment.
Some on here will say that only the evidence is to be discussed and will dismiss the incongruities on account of there being a lack of evidence. If that is how you feel, then fair enough. But please do not dismiss those unwilling to accept that there are too many missing pieces as being crazy conspiracy theorists hellbent on torturing Elisa's family. If her family was accepting of the LAPD findings, they would not be googling and coming across forums like this - so the argument of 'oh lets be quiet and accept the LAPD ruling of accidental drowning because if we investigate further it could turn out to be a suicide or unnecessarily expose the family to visions of more egregious scenarios' is really not a rational argument to dismiss a case with so many unexplained factors. I am fairly certain that over the 3 weeks where Elisa was missing and in the time prior to recieving the LAPD decision, similar scenarios would have played through their minds.
If you are content with the LAPD findings, that is your personal decision. But please respect the right of people who think Elisa's case deserves more answers to ask the hard questions <mod snip> If you disagree with a question that has been raised, answer it with facts and not speculation and subjectivity.
