fingerprints and pubic hairs

[j2mirish]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeana (DP)

I'm wondering at this point if her mind can even distinguish the difference between the truth and the lies she's been telling for so long.

[goody]Of course, it can. The mind forgets lies. The truth, however, sticks like glue.

i disagree- I think when someone like this & has so much to try to keep track of, there is no way they can keep track of the truth vs lies-- now dont misunderstand me.. she knows she is lying about having killed the kids...but all the details about the crime scence, what she & darin did, etc,etc-- those are the lies, i guess you could call them the supporting lies...that people cannot keep track of over a long period of time-that is another reason she came up with the TA approach, so she wouldnt have to keep track of what she had said

 

[beesy]

i disagree- I think when someone like this & has so much to try to keep track of, there is no way they can keep track of the truth vs lies-- now dont misunderstand me.. she knows she is lying about having killed the kids...but all the details about the crime scence, what she & darin did, etc,etc-- those are the lies, i guess you could call them the supporting lies...that people cannot keep track of over a long period of time-that is another reason she came up with the TA approach, so she wouldnt have to keep track of what she had said

I hate when people say she has convinced herself she didn't do it. That means that Darlie truly thinks she is innocent. She knows she did it. But, like you said, her lies have become so twisted and it's been so many years that she probably cannot remember exactly how things happened, the order and such. She hardly bothers now with telling the story anymore. Interviews are filled with "I didn't kill my babies", blah blah blah

 

[beesy]

Stop it you guys, I need a Depends now! Actually it's too late for that! ROFL!!!!
Pardon my ignorance about the cocaine references, as I seem to be out of the loop, would anyone care to enlighten me?

In Darlie and Darin's bedroom LE found some residual powder(coke) in a jewelry box of some sort.

 

[Dani_T]

I hate when people say she has convinced herself she didn't do it. That means that Darlie truly thinks she is innocent. She knows she did it. But, like you said, her lies have become so twisted and it's been so many years that she probably cannot remember exactly how things happened, the order and such. She hardly bothers now with telling the story anymore. Interviews are filled with "I didn't kill my babies", blah blah blah

Just because you hate it doesn't mean it isn't, or can't be, true.

The fact is that if you tell a lie for so long, and not only that but live and breath the lie and the role that it requires, you end up believing that role yourself.. Subconsciously she probably knows she is guilty but she has spent so long trying to convince everyone that she is a victim that I truly believe that she sees herself as such.

 

[beesy]

Just because you hate it doesn't mean it isn't, or can't be, true.

I didn't say that. I said that when people say that, they are excusing her. By saying that Darlie has convinced herself that she did not kill her boys means she is no longer lying. She is no longer a killer, not if she believes she's not. Believing that is very close to forgiving Darlie

The fact is that if you tell a lie for so long, and not only that but live and breath the lie and the role that it requires, you end up believing that role yourself.. Subconsciously she probably knows she is guilty but she has spent so long trying to convince everyone that she is a victim that I truly believe that she sees herself as such.

If Darlie believed she was innocent that would mean she has become psychotic as that is a delusion. Darlie is not psychotic. We all throw the term "psycho" around a lot. Call people "psychos" when they are in no way mentally ill. Psychosis comes with many other symptoms which Darlie does not seem to exhibit. It is very nearly impossible to function with psychosis. One of the very important and notable symptoms is delusions. It is not as simple as pushing something to the back of your mind. You are right about Darlie seeing herself as a victim. She and Darin have even said they felt betrayed by LE when she was arrested. IMO, Darlie knows she did it, but feels she is "special" and should never have been put in jail or even accused of the murders. I truly think she is shocked that LE and many other people do not buy her story.

 

[Goody]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeana (DP)

I'm wondering at this point if her mind can even distinguish the difference between the truth and the lies she's been telling for so long.

[goody]Of course, it can. The mind forgets lies. The truth, however, sticks like glue.

i disagree- I think when someone like this & has so much to try to keep track of, there is no way they can keep track of the truth vs lies-- now dont misunderstand me.. she knows she is lying about having killed the kids...but all the details about the crime scence, what she & darin did, etc,etc-- those are the lies, i guess you could call them the supporting lies...that people cannot keep track of over a long period of time-that is another reason she came up with the TA approach, so she wouldnt have to keep track of what she had said

Exactly. My point is that it is easy to remember the truth. It is the lies people can't keep up with because they have no outside point of reference. Ask any detective. They will tell you it is the lies that trip up their suspects, not the truths.

 

[Goody]

Just because you hate it doesn't mean it isn't, or can't be, true.

The fact is that if you tell a lie for so long, and not only that but live and breath the lie and the role that it requires, you end up believing that role yourself.. Subconsciously she probably knows she is guilty but she has spent so long trying to convince everyone that she is a victim that I truly believe that she sees herself as such.

Sorry, Dani, but I am with Beesy on this one. I think Darlie knows perfectly well exactly what happened. She might not allow herself to think about it much, making some of it a bit fuzzy over the years, but when it comes right down to it, there is no way I believe she could block out that blade going into her sons' bodies or the look in their little eyes. Nor do I believe she believes the intruder was or is a real person. Her hypnotic session proves that. One would have to be an idiotic to take that thing seriously. Like Judge Judy says, (and I hate quoting this because it is so corny butttttt....) "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."

 

[Dani_T]

I didn't say that. I said that when people say that, they are excusing her. By saying that Darlie has convinced herself that she did not kill her boys means she is no longer lying. She is no longer a killer, not if she believes she's not. Believing that is very close to forgiving Darlie

That's ridiculous.

I think that Darlie probably believes her own lies now (at least on a conscious level). I don't think that excuses her. I don't this she is no longer lying, I still think she murdered the boys and it is not for me to forgive her or not.


If Darlie believed she was innocent that would mean she has become psychotic as that is a delusion. Darlie is not psychotic. We all throw the term "psycho" around a lot. Call people "psychos" when they are in no way mentally ill. Psychosis comes with many other symptoms which Darlie does not seem to exhibit. It is very nearly impossible to function with psychosis. One of the very important and notable symptoms is delusions. It is not as simple as pushing something to the back of your mind. [/quote]

You are making giant leaps of logic there Beesy. To live a lie so completely as Darlie has for the last 6 years and to have to throw yourself into that character in order to have any chance of maintaining that lie does not automatically mean she is psychotic. It simply means that the role becomes so all consuming that in order to live it you convince yourself it is true. That doesn't necessarily mean that Darlie has convinced herself she didn't kill the boys- but it would mean that she sees herself as a victim who has been unfairly treated and that she has a degree of 'righteous' anger which ultimately for her would eclipse what happened to the boys. Everything is all about Darlie- even her supporters have rallied around justice for HER rather than justice for Damon and Devon (just look at the name of the websites).

 

[beesy]

You are making giant leaps of logic there Beesy. To live a lie so completely as Darlie has for the last 6 years and to have to throw yourself into that character in order to have any chance of maintaining that lie does not automatically mean she is psychotic. It simply means that the role becomes so all consuming that in order to live it you convince yourself it is true. That doesn't necessarily mean that Darlie has convinced herself she didn't kill the boys- but it would mean that she sees herself as a victim who has been unfairly treated and that she has a degree of 'righteous' anger which ultimately for her would eclipse what happened to the boys. Everything is all about Darlie- even her supporters have rallied around justice for HER rather than justice for Damon and Devon (just look at the name of the websites

Ok, possibly I rambled on about psyhosis, but I really think she'd display other symptoms which could actually be picked up with testing(i.e., not TA), if she has done what you think she has. And I totally agree she thinks she's a victim. All of the Darlies do. I don't see why she has to have given in to her role as innocent to believe she's a victim. She thought that right when she was 1st arrested, or appeared to, don't you think? She felt betrayed by LE, as if they owed her something. Had she already convinced herself that she was innocent then?

 

[beesy]

Sorry, Dani, but I am with Beesy on this one. I think Darlie knows perfectly well exactly what happened. She might not allow herself to think about it much, making some of it a bit fuzzy over the years, but when it comes right down to it, there is no way I believe she could block out that blade going into her sons' bodies or the look in their little eyes. Nor do I believe she believes the intruder was or is a real person. Her hypnotic session proves that. One would have to be an idiotic to take that thing seriously

.
Not when she's reduced the intruder to a "blur"....she's given up trying to descibe him/them!

Like Judge Judy says, (and I hate quoting this because it is so corny butttttt....) "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."

Awww, don't make fun of Judge Judy! That's a good one too...

 

[Dani_T]

Ok, possibly I rambled on about psyhosis, but I really think she'd display other symptoms which could actually be picked up with testing(i.e., not TA), if she has done what you think she has. And I totally agree she thinks she's a victim. All of the Darlies do. I don't see why she has to have given in to her role as innocent to believe she's a victim. She thought that right when she was 1st arrested, or appeared to, don't you think? She felt betrayed by LE, as if they owed her something. Had she already convinced herself that she was innocent then?

Other symptoms of what? And what testing should have picked it up? As far as I am aware we have not seen any results of any post-conviction testing done on Darlie (beyond the hypnosis).

All I am saying is that from the start Darlie was obliged to play the role of the victim if she wanted to protest her innocence. She has been forced to maintain that role and in fact ramp it up post-conviction for almost 10 years now. When you live a lie like that for that long you HAVE to, on some level, convince yourself that it is true. It doesn't change the fact that she murdered the boys. It doesn't change the fact that she is guilty. But in terms of her carrying this off for this long there has to be a level on which she has convinced herself that she is truly a victim. Perhaps she doesn't even think much about what happened to the boys anymore. Perhaps it is all eclisped by her own victimisation. But if you're entire existence depends on convincing other people that you didn't do something you did then you have to throw yourself into that role and I have no doubt that the lines of reality become blurred after a lengthy period of time.

As for acting the victim from the beginning, I don't think we can tell that she thought she was being 'wronged' when she was arrested. There is no evidence that was the case. Whilst she may have justified the murder in her mind she would have to know that it would not be considered so generally (unless she is a sociopath) and we saw from the beginning that the way she tried to claim her innocence was by claiming to be as much a victim of the attack as the boys were.

 

[Dani_T]

Sorry, Dani, but I am with Beesy on this one. I think Darlie knows perfectly well exactly what happened. She might not allow herself to think about it much, making some of it a bit fuzzy over the years, but when it comes right down to it, there is no way I believe she could block out that blade going into her sons' bodies or the look in their little eyes. Nor do I believe she believes the intruder was or is a real person. Her hypnotic session proves that. One would have to be an idiotic to take that thing seriously. Like Judge Judy says, (and I hate quoting this because it is so corny butttttt....) "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."

Goody we are not actually disagreeing with each other much on this. I'm not claiming that Darlie in all honesty has forgotten the fact that she killed her kids. What I do think though is her role as the victim, fighting for her life on death row, has eclipsed the reality of what she did to them. Perhaps she doesn't dwell on it much or at all and in that way, by blocking it from her conscious thoughts, she can allow the victim mentality to take on 'righteous' proportions and eclipse the fact that she is guilty of murder. I mean just take a look at that letter someone posted from erica shepherd. The woman is a murderer but she claims that she is being victimised with no basis whatsoever. The reason she is in there doesn't even seem to occur to her when she considers her treatment.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Dani, I agree with you 100%. The boys no longer exist, either in this life, or in Darlie's mind. Since the day Darlie was arrested, the focus has been on her and only shifts back to the boys when someone else brings them up.

 

[SnootyVixen]

All I am saying is that if the defense is so confident that Darlie did not leave that print then why didn't they have him include her along with Damon and Devon to show us that?Of course I know very well why they didn't- because it was too darn risky. Which only undermines the whole endeavour and the prosecution could have a field day with it.

I think this statement is not correct. I do not know every fact of this case but I do know about this. The fingerprint was supposed to be that of the young boy Damon, prosecution already said it was not that of Darlie so why would there be a need to have anyone check her fingerprint? No need. Only to check the print of the boy Damon.
I have be reading about this. Before this happen, Darlie said not to be the fingerprint. After this said that the fingerprint not belong to Damon then the prosecution start over with another fingerprint espert. They don use the same one as the trial. I don know why that is but they use another and that person said might be Darlie might not be.
An I do wonder about this. If defense or Darlie thinks she could be guilty then why do they allow the new fingerprint set to be done at the prison? It was done with her permission. At the beginning I thought she had to do it but then I learn that she do not have to do it. She said yes freely. If guilty why would she do that? I can not think of reason.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

The boys were not fingerprinted by the medical examiner nor did they have them anywhere else on file. The boys had to be exhumed and their hands removed and rehydrated in order to try and get their prints. Since the defense has kept quiet about this little late night sneak into the cemetary, we can only conclude that they couldn't prove anything about the print. The print was said to be that of a female or child because of the size of the print. I'm not sure if there were even enough points on the print to be able to ever determine who the print belonged to. Suffice it to say, however, that the print was not that of an adult male. So, we are where we've been since the beginning. No other person was in that house besides this family when the boys were murdered.

 

[Dani_T]

I think this statement is not correct. I do not know every fact of this case but I do know about this. The fingerprint was supposed to be that of the young boy Damon, prosecution already said it was not that of Darlie so why would there be a need to have anyone check her fingerprint? No need. Only to check the print of the boy Damon.

The problem is Snooty that it was NOT just Damon's print which was compared- Devon's print was compared as well and THEN the DEFENSE compared average male and female adult prints. Furthermore they brought in their own experts to compare Darlie's print to it. And if they wanted to disprove that it was not Damon's print then it would be ridiculous for them to not try and exclude Darlie since that is obviously where the prosecution would look next.

They had the perfect opportunity to show everyone that Darlie could be ruled out from leaving that print but they didn't do it. Why not?

An I do wonder about this. If defense or Darlie thinks she could be guilty then why do they allow the new fingerprint set to be done at the prison? It was done with her permission. At the beginning I thought she had to do it but then I learn that she do not have to do it. She said yes freely. If guilty why would she do that? I can not think of reason.

Huh? What are you talking about?

 

[beesy]

Other symptoms of what? And what testing should have picked it up? As far as I am aware we have not seen any results of any post-conviction testing done on Darlie (beyond the hypnosis).

I don't think any testing has been done on Darlie either. To suport her theory of TA, it would be smart for her attornies to have some psychological testing done. There are proven tests one can be given to determine if that person is having cognitive and reasoning problems, poor impulse control, delusions, narcissism etc. Ask a neuropsychiatrist if these tests exist. They do and they are acknowledged as accurate.

As for acting the victim from the beginning, I don't think we can tell that she thought she was being 'wronged' when she was arrested. There is no evidence that was the case. Whilst she may have justified the murder in her mind she would have to know that it would not be considered so generally (unless she is a sociopath) and we saw from the beginning that the way she tried to claim her innocence was by claiming to be as much a victim of the attack as the boys were.

Both Darin and Darlie have been quoted as saying they felt betrayed by LE when she was arrested. They thought LE was on "their" side and that their stories were believed. And Darlie was shocked that her letters were being read. She said she felt it was an invasion of her privacy. To me, that sounds like she was already feeling victimized by the system.

 

[beesy]

I have be reading about this. Before this happen, Darlie said not to be the fingerprint. After this said that the fingerprint not belong to Damon then the prosecution start over with another fingerprint espert. They don use the same one as the trial. I don know why that is but they use another and that person said might be Darlie might not be.

Um, I realize English is not your 1st language and I'm not making fun of you, but huh? In the US when you are arrested, you must be fingerprinted. There is no option. They do not have to ask permission. Once you are arrested, you have no control over what testing can be done. For instance a probable suspect must be asked to give a DNA sample. Once charged and arrested, they can take anything they want, within reason, of course

An I do wonder about this. If defense or Darlie thinks she could be guilty then why do they allow the new fingerprint set to be done at the prison? It was done with her permission. At the beginning I thought she had to do it but then I learn that she do not have to do it. She said yes freely. If guilty why would she do that? I can not think of reason

Well, I am having trouble understanding what you are saying, but I think you are saying Darlie was re-printed? You do not have to re-print anybody. Why would they need more of her prints? Or are you talking about the boys? Again, in the US, you have no control over what testing is conducted on your family member's body. A crime has been commited and LE automatically has the right to investigate. As far as exhuming the bodies to retrieve the fingerprints or other things missed during the original autopsy, a judge decides if that can be done. If a defendant's team asks for it to be done, then obviously the defendant agrees with it. They do not have the final say. I do not know why Darlie has anything to fear by wanting the boys' prints taken. Damon's and Devon's fingerprints at the scene would prove.........what?

 

[SnootyVixen]

Um, I realize English is not your 1st language and I'm not making fun of you, but huh? In the US when you are arrested, you must be fingerprinted. There is no option. They do not have to ask permission. Once you are arrested, you have no control over what testing can be done. For instance a probable suspect must be asked to give a DNA sample. Once charged and arrested, they can take anything they want, within reason, of course


Well, I am having trouble understanding what you are saying, but I think you are saying Darlie was re-printed? If that's what you are saying, then it's wrong. You do not have to re-print anybody. Why would they need more of her prints? Or are you talking about the boys? Again, in the US, you have no control over what testing is conducted on your family member's body. A crime has been commited and LE automatically has the right to investigate. As far as exhuming the bodies to retrieve the fingerprints or other things missed during the original autopsy, a judge decides if that can be done. If a defendant's team asks for it to be done, then obviously the defendant agrees with it. They do not have the final say. I do not know why Darlie has anything to fear by wanting the boys' prints taken. Damon's and Devon's fingerprints at the scene would prove.........what?

Beezy, I do not feel insulted. But I do not think you know some things that happen here.
I will try to write the things that will tell you what happen. Yes, of course is true that Darlie Routier gave fingerprints when arrest made. That is true not only in America you know. Other countries know how to catch the criminals too. They have the fingerprints of Darlie and Darin but they do not have them from the little sons. They did not take them at the autopsy. And then they were buried without them. So it was thought that the print was of the little boy because they later did find prints from the older son from school. Taken at school I am trying to say. So there was not a way for the defense lawyers to counter the thinking that the bloody print is that of the young son Damon because no one have his prints.
So that is why the bodys removed from the grave and the Dr. from U of Tenn asked to do his testings on the handprints of the little boys. Dr. Jantz. So he is ask to say if the print come from the boy Damon and he say no.

So then is a consternation for the lawyers of the prosecution because they thought it was belong to Damon. They have a expert in study of the fingreprints from the trial who said something like this but vague but I think also said not from Darlie. The bloody print I mean. So what are they to do? The trial is over years. Darlie is in prison for years by now. But still they go and they hire another expert in the fingerprint science to study the bloody fingerprint
This expert she ask Darlie can I get a new set of your fingerprints to do this? Darlie says yes. And this is what is important to me because Darlie do not have to agree. Not like when she was arrested. Then she have no choice but after trial and after on death row for years the prosecution cannot force her to give more fingerprints if she don't want to. So what would make her say yes except being sure that she was not the one who left that print? To me that seems most obvious but I do not know of course. It just seems that way.
This expert she say that she cannot say about Darlie about one finger. Could be her or could not be. Not much of an answer but causes doubt again. So there we are left with that print.

But another found on door to garage. Which neither side even mention at the trial. I don't know beezy how you think, but this all just makes me think and think. I do not know what is the correct answer for sure but I do not think that these things are things that are so easily thrown away as some here seem to think. I do not care much about psychiatry or if she good mummy because I do not think any here know any better than me and I know I do not know about that stuff. But this fingerprint stuff is interesting. You might find it interesting.

 

[Dani_T]

Both Darin and Darlie have been quoted as saying they felt betrayed by LE when she was arrested. They thought LE was on "their" side and that their stories were believed. And Darlie was shocked that her letters were being read. She said she felt it was an invasion of her privacy. To me, that sounds like she was already feeling victimized by the system.

Of course she said she felt betrayed- because she had to pretend she was a victim of the attacks herself. Had she NOT said she felt betrayed then it would have stood out like a sore thumb.