GUILTY FL - 17 killed in Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Parkland, 14 Feb 2018 #4 *Arrest*

[kdg411]

Broward County `Baker Act` facilities

https://www.browardconnections.org/baker-act-receiving.html

This may be a question for an attorney however I`ll just post for follow-up.

IF NC has a documented IDD diagnosis does the death penalty still apply to this crime?

 

[jjenny]

Broward County `Baker Act` facilities

https://www.browardconnections.org/baker-act-receiving.html

This may be a question for an attorney however I`ll just post for follow-up.

IF NC has a documented IDD diagnosis does the death penalty still apply to this crime?

Yes, death penalty can still apply.
"The Supreme Court has repeatedly declined to shield mentally ill people from the death penalty, saying only that people who are insane cannot be executed."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/us/mental-illness-death-penalty.html

 

[enelram]

HONEST QUESTION TO CARIIS-

What do you think should have been done w/ NC to have prevented this massacre?
Where did things break down that allowed this to happen?
Is it simply that he had access to guns?

Please give us your opinion. Thanks.

 

[Doghairrules]

It is not treatment. What happens is when cops arrive they ask are you suicidal? They answer no. They ask are you going hurt others? They so no

By law in Fl they cant do anything.

A clinician would be able to access in a more nuanced manner,

The law in FL has nothing to do with treatment-- all it is about is someone going to kill themselves or others very soon.

The I am going to be a school shooter is a nothing. There is no imminent threat to anyone -- that is the law.

If they answered the question like :yes tomorrow around 846 I am going to take my machine gun to XXXX and kill as many people as I can -- Baker Act.

24 hours later Are you going to shoot at your school "No:

Discharge time .

imminent imminent imminent imminent imminent

poses a real and present threat



that is all the Baker Act is

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0300-0399/0394/0394.html

[FONT=&amp]Designation of receiving and treatment facilities and receiving systems. -- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unless designated by the department, facilities are not [/FONT][FONT=&amp]permitted [/FONT][FONT=&amp]to hold or [/FONT]treat[FONT=&amp] involuntary patients

[/FONT]Most don't want to deal with it. It is dangerous [FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]a lot of places wont take a Baker Act -- it is not like medical in FL . A lot of it comes off of the mentally ill being used by facilities to hold people for ages so they could nail whoever was paying.

Interesting. I know personally if a situation in the late 1990s where a friend’s therapist reported that she was suicidal. The cops went to her house and then stayed for hours awaiting a female cop. They patted her down in front of all the neighbors who gathered to see what was going on, then took her to a psychiatric hospital. None of them even asked her whether she was suicidal. (That process is also not helpful when one is already depressed.)

 

[mpnola]

He was being treated while mother was still alive. At various 911 calls his therapist would show up and proclaim that he didn't need to be Baker acted. His reported behavior still was atrocious, so obviously the treatment didn't work.

As we have talked about here many times, all funding for mental health has been removed. So what you are calling "treatment" is like giving a bandaid to someone who just cut off their leg. Treatment options need to be much, much better. Much more plentiful. They existed and they were removed. The system not only failed him, but fails many! There is no other option other than to be failed, with the services that are available.

I (and Cariis) worked in the field for a whole lot of years. You definitely don't have to believe us, but we speak from first hand experience. I think everyone should go work in mental health for a while. It definitely does some real good to get judgements in check. It is a life altering experience. These are humans who live and breathe and interact like all of us, then they have episodes and moments that feel completely foreign. And the worst part is that they usually feel tortured by their thoughts and behaviors. 99% of the criminals on Websleuths are cold hearted killers who deserve nothing more than death. The 1% that we can change, we need to give that attention to. The future victims deserve it!!!

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[mpnola]

Interesting. I know personally if a situation in the late 1990s where a friend’s therapist reported that she was suicidal. The cops went to her house and then stayed for hours awaiting a female cop. They patted her down in front of all the neighbors who gathered to see what was going on, then took her to a psychiatric hospital. None of them even asked her whether she was suicidal. (That process is also not helpful when one is already depressed.)

In nola we had a unit of the police department called "the crisis team". I called them when one of my guys needed to be hospitalized. That was in the late 90s. None of that exists at all anymore. You wonder why important resources disappeared rather than grew and evolved, huh??? Makes zero sense. And the outcome is terrifying. And sadly, no one other than those of us who worked in the field fully understood the impact.

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[jjenny]

As we have talked about here many times, all funding for mental health has been removed. So what you are calling "treatment" is like giving a bandaid to someone who just cut off their leg. Treatment options need to be much, much better. Much more plentiful. They existed and they were removed. The system not only failed him, but fails many! There is no other option other than to be failed, with the services that are available.

I (and Cariis) worked in the field for a whole lot of years. You definitely don't have to believe us, but we speak from first hand experience. I think everyone should go work in mental health for a while. It definitely does some real good to get judgements in check. It is a life altering experience. These are humans who live and breathe and interact like all of us, then they have episodes and moments that feel completely foreign. And the worst part is that they usually feel tortured by their thoughts and behaviors. 99% of the criminals on Websleuths are cold hearted killers who deserve nothing more than death. The 1% that we can change, we need to give that attention to. The future victims deserve it!!!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I don't believe anything could have change this one. Seems like he was exhibiting troubling behavior ever since he was a young child. He supposedly was upset over the passing of his adoptive mother, but yet there are reports he was abusive toward her when she was alive. There are also reports he was abusive toward animals. Reportedly he was obsessed with violence for years. What exactly was going to change him?

"The rage and obsession with violence documented by Cruz’s therapists during nearly two years of interactions when he was 15 to 17 years old continued through his school career: Again and again, authorities were warned about the teen’s explosive tendencies and lack of impulse control. Again and again, authorities ignored the warnings."
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article204450699.html

 

[Elley Mae]

I don't believe anything could have change this one. Seems like he was exhibiting troubling behavior ever since he was a young child. He supposedly was upset over the passing of his adoptive mother, but yet there are reports he was abusive toward her when she was alive. There are also reports he was abusive toward animals. What exactly was going to change him?

Nothing. It was a matter of time.

 

[Elley Mae]

I know of a young lady who is in Psychiatric hospital, has been for over 4 years and from what i hear on occasion about her, she is not leaving anytime soon if ever.


Eta That is where he belonged.

 

[enelram]

As we have talked about here many times, all funding for mental health has been removed. So what you are calling "treatment" is like giving a bandaid to someone who just cut off their leg. Treatment options need to be much, much better. Much more plentiful. They existed and they were removed. The system not only failed him, but fails many! There is no other option other than to be failed, with the services that are available.

I (and Cariis) worked in the field for a whole lot of years. You definitely don't have to believe us, but we speak from first hand experience. I think everyone should go work in mental health for a while. It definitely does some real good to get judgements in check. It is a life altering experience. These are humans who live and breathe and interact like all of us, then they have episodes and moments that feel completely foreign. And the worst part is that they usually feel tortured by their thoughts and behaviors. 99% of the criminals on Websleuths are cold hearted killers who deserve nothing more than death. The 1% that we can change, we need to give that attention to. The future victims deserve it!!!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Thanks you so much for your insight, mpnola. I appreciate having people like you and CARIIS, with your years of real experience in real life, help us understand the problems we are dealing with.
It's a sad world where we have so many 'troubled' people around us who are crying out for help and there is so very little for them.
NC, IMO, had the deck stacked against him, if the birth problems he had were real, and then coupled with the things
that happened in his life with his adoptive family.
This link is interesting to me because , even without brain damage at birth, just being adopted could bring on many
problems for him depending on how he actually bonded with that family.
Good reading and the comments from adopted adults are astounding.

 

[enelram]

https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/long-term-issues-for-the-adopted-child/

 

[Elley Mae]

When Nikolas Jacob Cruz was born in South Florida 19 years ago, his adoptive mother Lynda was in the delivery room to watch him emerge. The nurse handed the baby to her. She was elated.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...hooting-nikolas-cruz-life-20180220-story.html

“Nikolas at times will be distracted by inappropriate conversations of his peers if the topic is about guns, people being killed or the armed forces. He will also engage in the conversation,” the report says, going on to note that “Nikolas benefits from verbal praise and positive reinforcements.”

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I don't believe anything could have change this one. Seems like he was exhibiting troubling behavior ever since he was a young child. He supposedly was upset over the passing of his adoptive mother, but yet there are reports he was abusive toward her when she was alive. There are also reports he was abusive toward animals. Reportedly he was obsessed with violence for years. What exactly was going to change him?

"The rage and obsession with violence documented by Cruz’s therapists during nearly two years of interactions when he was 15 to 17 years old continued through his school career: Again and again, authorities were warned about the teen’s explosive tendencies and lack of impulse control. Again and again, authorities ignored the warnings."
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article204450699.html

Agree. There were even reports that he had issues as a toddler. I don't think there's any fixing that.

Now someone like Austin Harrouff, him I feel for. He went psycho, clearly mentally ill, and could live a normal and functional life with proper meds and support. Of course, he will never have a chance to have a normal life now. That I find heartbreaking.

I believe NC has a personality disorder. I think he was broken from birth. He was never functional, and I don't think any amount of meds or therapy could make him able to function well in society. Yes, it's sad that he was messed up from birth, but he clearly knew full well what he was doing. He knew it was wrong. He planned it, chose the day, chose the time. He was fully in control. He could have chosen not to do this. He didn't have to stand over people he had already shot and pump more bullets into them. He chose when to stop, and was able to blend in with other students and walk out.

Austin Harrouff was sick and could be treated. Nikolas Cruz is a monster.

JMO

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[Gooddeeds]

CHAOS AND LACK OF ORDER FOR THE FAMILIES WHILE PATIENTLY WAITING FOR A REPORT:

“For families of Parkland shooting victims, awful truth came after hours of waiting”

He said parents began yelling at police and FBI agents as the hours dragged on. “The mayor and commissioners were telling police — you have to do something for these parents.”

One victim’s relative said, “There was no command center … A guy from the sheriff’s office came in and said he was in charge, then he disappeared.”

Rabbi Moshe Levin, of Chabad of Coral Springs, said, “Parents were hearing about things from social media … There were no systems in place. There were all these police and agents from everywhere, but nobody could work out who the heck anybody was.”

“As the night went on, it got more hostile,” Moskowitz said.

“THEY KNEW FOR HOURS”

Lacking information from the police and agents in the conference center, some families tried to take matters into their own hands.

Jennifer Montalto got a tip through Facebook about her daughter Gina. She left the Marriott around 7 p.m., telling her husband, Tony, to meet her at Broward Health North in Deerfield Beach, said Sherlock, her brother.

Waiting in a private space in the hospital, she was asked if she wanted a priest. After her husband arrived, they were told their daughter had died.

“They knew exactly who she was … They knew for hours,” Sherlock said of his niece. “They had that information and … with all the chaos they just didn’t take the time to assign somebody to organizing [the information] and getting it to the parents.”


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...and-shooting-notification-20180300-story.html

 

[x_files]

CHAOS AND LACK OF ORDER FOR THE FAMILIES WHILE PATIENTLY WAITING FOR A REPORT:

“For families of Parkland shooting victims, awful truth came after hours of waiting”

He said parents began yelling at police and FBI agents as the hours dragged on. “The mayor and commissioners were telling police — you have to do something for these parents.”

One victim’s relative said, “There was no command center … A guy from the sheriff’s office came in and said he was in charge, then he disappeared.”

Rabbi Moshe Levin, of Chabad of Coral Springs, said, “Parents were hearing about things from social media … There were no systems in place. There were all these police and agents from everywhere, but nobody could work out who the heck anybody was.”

“As the night went on, it got more hostile,” Moskowitz said.

“THEY KNEW FOR HOURS”

Lacking information from the police and agents in the conference center, some families tried to take matters into their own hands.

Jennifer Montalto got a tip through Facebook about her daughter Gina. She left the Marriott around 7 p.m., telling her husband, Tony, to meet her at Broward Health North in Deerfield Beach, said Sherlock, her brother.

Waiting in a private space in the hospital, she was asked if she wanted a priest. After her husband arrived, they were told their daughter had died.

“They knew exactly who she was … They knew for hours,” Sherlock said of his niece. “They had that information and … with all the chaos they just didn’t take the time to assign somebody to organizing [the information] and getting it to the parents.”


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...and-shooting-notification-20180300-story.html

That's horrible. good god.

 

[Gooddeeds]

That's horrible. good god.

Yes, horrible! A very sad reality to process. So far off from what we envision happening from those we put our trust in. That’s whiplash trauma...

 

[PrairieWind]

Broward County `Baker Act` facilities

https://www.browardconnections.org/baker-act-receiving.html

This may be a question for an attorney however I`ll just post for follow-up.

IF NC has a documented IDD diagnosis does the death penalty still apply to this crime?

Only if his IQ is registered below 70, or he is deemed to not know right from wrong. By all accounts I have seen NC was very bright and fully understands right from wrong. I think he will meet legal mental requirements for capital punishment.

 

[Doghairrules]

I don't believe anything could have change this one. Seems like he was exhibiting troubling behavior ever since he was a young child. He supposedly was upset over the passing of his adoptive mother, but yet there are reports he was abusive toward her when she was alive. There are also reports he was abusive toward animals. Reportedly he was obsessed with violence for years. What exactly was going to change him?

"The rage and obsession with violence documented by Cruz’s therapists during nearly two years of interactions when he was 15 to 17 years old continued through his school career: Again and again, authorities were warned about the teen’s explosive tendencies and lack of impulse control. Again and again, authorities ignored the warnings."
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article204450699.html

Except perhaps he should not have been able to pass a background check to purchase an assault weapon.

 

[jjenny]

Except perhaps he should not have been able to pass a background check to purchase an assault weapon.

His criminal record was clear. He wasn't charged or convicted of anything.

 

[Gooddeeds]

FROM A FRIEND OF NIKS SINCE 6th GRADE

BROWARD COUNTY, Fla. - A friend of the suspected Parkland high school shooter said Nikolas Cruz's demeanor changed after his father's death in 2005, but he had no one to turn to for help.

“We couldn't help him at all. No one had ever been a friend to him,” Ethan Trieu said to Channel 9’s Steve Barrett. “I've known him since sixth grade, I want to start out by saying I'm not rationalizing or justifying what he did. It was completely wrong and horrible and disgusting.”

Trieu said he had no idea that Cruz could commit such a horrific act and kill 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

“From when I've known him, he was one of the nicest people I've known in my entire life,” Trieu said.

But after Cruz’s father's death, something changed.

“Eventually after a couple of months, he started talking again, but he couldn't fit back in correctly, and he met the wrong people. They encouraged him and motivated him to do all this wrong stuff, like throw pencils at the teacher and stuff,” Trieu said.

Trieu said as years passed, Cruz became more of an outcast, was bullied, started speaking of violence to the point that in just January, the FBI missed the opportunity to follow up on a warning about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, disturbing social media posts and the potential that he could conduct a school shooting.

Trieu said the last time he saw Cruz was moments after the shooting as students evacuated.


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.wftv...nd-to-him-classmate-of-nikolas-cruz/701457230