FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[mikeysmommom]

IMO They are calling a Grand Jury to try to calm the tension,unless something more comes to light I really do not believe he will be charged.That Law was put in place because of all the brutal home invasions in surrounding areas. I feel bad a teenager has died but honestly I was not there so I have no idea if he was threatening in any way to GZ.If both were the same race would we be seeing this outcry?

 

[Sensei]

Since Zimmerman had moisture and grass all over his back, and a head injury to the back of his head, and bleeding from his nose, I think it's CLEAR he was in a physical confrontation and he was losing.

That may meet Florida's right to defend your life laws, I don't know. If I were in Zimmerman's position, I'd surely have used any weapon I had in my possession to survive.

If he forced the physical confrontation by attempting to detain Tray in any way, by putting his hands on him, grabbing his arm, or attempting to see what he was holding or had in his pockets, then that does NOT meet the self defense statute....Self defense is ONLY viable if you did not start the fight or confrontation, you can yell, you can yell racial slurs, you cannot put your hands on anyone ever and then claim self defense.

Neither can you attempt to detain him by pulling a gun on him, and then shoot him if he resists. If you start it then the other party has every right to finish it and if you kill them it is Murder.

 

[HiHater]

Zimmerman called police at 7:09. His call lasted about 4 minutes.

Crump said that phone records that the Sanford Police Department had clearly show the last call was at 7:12 p.m. by a girl who he had talked to all day. He said the call lasted four minutes.

Police documented that they arrived at scene at 7:17 p/m., which is less than five minutes after Martin's friend called. Crump said that records show there wasn’t much during the altercation, and she was on the phone for four of those minutes, so that Martin was the aggressor was "preposterous."

Zimmerman is not on the phone from 7:13-7:16. (or any point thereafter.
Martin is on the phone from 7:12-7:16.

Martin was reportedly killed at 7:15 (not sure if that's an estimate).
Police arrive at 7:17.

So whatever struggle took place was in a very short amount of time. Based on the girlfriend's statement and phone records, she heard the first push. Zimmerman says he was following Trayvon, and that he was running.

I think that this clears up who the aggressor was.

 

[Sensei]

IMO They are calling a Grand Jury to try to calm the tension,unless something more comes to light I really do not believe he will be charged.That Law was put in place because of all the brutal home invasions in surrounding areas. I feel bad a teenager has died but honestly I was not there so I have no idea if he was threatening in any way to GZ.If both were the same race would we be seeing this outcry?

With all due respect, if they were both the same race then GZ would NOT have followed him in his truck, or on foot, and would not have shot him.

 

[porkchop]

Bottom line is Zimmerman initiated the whole confrontation by first following Tray in his truck, then after Tray attempted to run away, chasing him. I do believe if you are being chased by somebody you have reason to believe that you are in danger, and therefore have a right to defend yourself. This whole stand your ground that the SPD is using to defend why they didn't arrest Zimmerman is just what they came up with to hide the fact that they attempted to sweep this under the rug. If anybody should be claiming the stand your ground defense, it should be Tray.

 

[jjenny]

If he forced the physical confrontation by attempting to detain Tray in any way, by putting his hands on him, grabbing his arm, or attempting to see what he was holding or had in his pockets, then that does NOT meet the self defense statute....Self defense is ONLY viable if you did not start the fight or confrontation, you can yell, you can yell racial slurs, you cannot put your hands on anyone ever and then claim self defense.

Neither can you attempt to detain him by pulling a gun on him, and then shoot him if he resists. If you start it then the other party has every right to finish it and if you kill them it is Murder.

While that might be true, no one witnessed who started the physical confrontation. The girlfriend on the phone can't say who pushed who.
So GZ says he didn't and no one can contradict him. And it appears GZ was the one witness (more than one) saw on the ground.

 

[jjenny]

How are these two snippets in the same article?

Because there are two different people making comments. And obviously one of them isn't aware an audio expert didn't think it was a racial slur.

 

[jjenny]

Zimmerman called police at 7:09. His call lasted about 4 minutes.

Crump said that phone records that the Sanford Police Department had clearly show the last call was at 7:12 p.m. by a girl who he had talked to all day. He said the call lasted four minutes.

Police documented that they arrived at scene at 7:17 p/m., which is less than five minutes after Martin's friend called. Crump said that records show there wasn’t much during the altercation, and she was on the phone for four of those minutes, so that Martin was the aggressor was "preposterous."

Zimmerman is not on the phone from 7:13-7:16. (or any point thereafter.
Martin is on the phone from 7:12-7:16.

Martin was reportedly killed at 7:15 (not sure if that's an estimate).
Police arrive at 7:17.

So whatever struggle took place was in a very short amount of time. Based on the girlfriend's statement and phone records, she heard the first push. Zimmerman says he was following Trayvon, and that he was running.

I think that this clears up who the aggressor was.

I don't think those exact times are possible. The girlfriend doesn't say she heard any gunshots, so she was not on the phone with him when he was killed. I agree it likely was a short amount of time, but those exact times have to be off.

 

[Sensei]

Zimmerman called police at 7:09. His call lasted about 4 minutes.

Crump said that phone records that the Sanford Police Department had clearly show the last call was at 7:12 p.m. by a girl who he had talked to all day. He said the call lasted four minutes.

Police documented that they arrived at scene at 7:17 p/m., which is less than five minutes after Martin's friend called. Crump said that records show there wasn’t much during the altercation, and she was on the phone for four of those minutes, so that Martin was the aggressor was "preposterous."

Zimmerman is not on the phone from 7:13-7:16. (or any point thereafter.
Martin is on the phone from 7:12-7:16.

Martin was reportedly killed at 7:15 (not sure if that's an estimate).
Police arrive at 7:17.

So whatever struggle took place was in a very short amount of time. Based on the girlfriend's statement and phone records, she heard the first push. Zimmerman says he was following Trayvon, and that he was running.

I think that this clears up who the aggressor was.

THAT ^^^^^^ ALL of THAT ^^^^ That was the timeline that I was trying to pin down and could not get all the times, but it shows how ludicrous it is to claim that while on the phone with his girlfriend he turns and suddenly attacks...and honestly there was not enough time there for there to be a fight so bad that GZ who was armed with a gun was in fear of his life. please give me a break my Granny could fight longer than that and she's OLD

HiHater is entirely correct this clears up quite effectively exactly who the aggressor was and it was NOT Trayvon.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

With all due respect, if they were both the same race then GZ would NOT have followed him in his truck, or on foot, and would not have shot him.

Exactly.

And if this had been a white man killed under the same circumstances in a predominantly black neighborhood...

Oh my gosh.

 

[jjenny]

Exactly.

And if this had been a white man killed under the same circumstances in a predominantly black neighborhood...

Oh my gosh.

What exactly do you think would have happened then?

 

[Reader]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-20/trayvon-martin-teen-shot-stereotypes/53677634/1

Triplett said the Justice investigation would review all aspects of the case, including the police response and the decision not to arrest Zimmerman.

Bonaparte acknowledged Zimmerman was part of a network of local Neighborhood Watch groups trained by the Sanford Police Department and urged "not to engage" possible suspects or people they encounter. Brown said she was "not satisfied" with the initial handling of the case, agreeing that Zimmerman was not tested for possible substance abuse immediately after the incident and lamenting that proper steps were not taken to preserve possible evidence at the scene.

In the wake of Martin's death, the law is getting a second look. State Sen. Oscar Braynon, who represents Miami Gardens where the teen lived with his mother, called for hearings or a select committee to clarify what constitutes self-defense under the law. He said that since the law was enacted in 2005, the number of justified homicides in the state has skyrocketed. In 2005, there were 43 such cases; in 2009, the last complete year available, there were 105, Braynon said.

"I think there is vigilante justice happening and I think people are getting shot," he said. "This is an unintended consequence of the law."

 

[Sensei]

While that might be true, no one witnessed who started the physical confrontation. The girlfriend on the phone can't say who pushed who.
So GZ says he didn't and no one can contradict him. And it appears GZ was the one witness (more than one) saw on the ground.

NO ONE has to contradict him, the entirety of the circumstances contradict him, it's called circumstantial evidence and is entirely admissable. All the circumstances before and After Tray ended up dead on the ground contradict his version of events, Tray's non history of violence contradicts him...You do NOT have to have a witness, and you most certainly do NOT have to accept the word of the person who has a very vested interest in lying since not going to jail for Murder is a powerful motivator to lie, but you can believe the circumstances and the timeline.

 

[Sensei]

What exactly do you think would have happened then?

GZ would either be out on high bond, or his butt would be sitting in jail while they wait for a court date.

 

[mikeysmommom]

Exactly.

And if this had been a white man killed under the same circumstances in a predominantly black neighborhood...

Oh my gosh.

Nothing ever happens except what ever the police decide. I have never read about tension from the white community to disregard the police finding and calling for a Grand Jury and it happening.Not being snippy I just have never seen it anywhere.

 

[HiHater]

I don't think those exact times are possible. The girlfriend doesn't say she heard any gunshots, so she was not on the phone with him when he was killed. I agree it likely was a short amount of time, but those exact times have to be off.

The only time that is not exact is the 7:15 shooting, but that can probably be narrowed down by listening to the witness' 911 calls.

The times from the girlfriend come right from her phone records.
The times for Zimmerman's 911 call come straight from the Call History released by the city of Sanford. The recording of the call lasts 4 minutes and 4 seconds.
The time of police arrival comes from the same.

You can go check for yourself, but those are pretty much exact times.

 

[jjenny]

GZ would either be out on high bond, or his butt would be sitting in jail while they wait for a court date.

Not with "stand your ground" law.

 

[jjenny]

The only time that is not exact is the 7:15 shooting, but that can probably be narrowed down by listening to the witness' 911 calls.

The times from the girlfriend come right from her phone records.
The times for Zimmerman's 911 call come straight from the Call History released by the city of Sanford. The recording of the call lasts 4 minutes and 4 seconds.
The time of police arrival comes from the same.

You can go check for yourself, but those are pretty much exact times.

I don't think these clocks were synchronized because there has be a discrepancy there somewhere.

 

[HiHater]

Exactly.

And if this had been a white man killed under the same circumstances in a predominantly black neighborhood...

Oh my gosh.

Ha. Somebody would already be on DEATH ROW.

 

[HiHater]

I don't think these clocks were synchronized because there has be a discrepancy there somewhere.

I'm sure the clocks are involved in some giant conspiracy.