FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

[angelmom]

IIRC, the transcripts have GZ describing what he thinks is suspicious behavior of walking around staring at houses. He only describes what TM was wearing to identify the "subject" and GZ wasn't even sure if TM was a black youth until he turned around and walked toward him. IMO, based on the transcripts it does not appear that TM was singled out, or caught GZ's attention, because he was black.

FTR, I believe GZ was in the wrong and I oppose "stand your ground" laws for this very reason.

This is totally inconsistent. GZ pretends he doesn't know Trayvon's race or age at the start of the call, but if he truly couldn't see Tray's face, how did he know Tray was not a neighbor just out for a walk? This is the first lie of many, IMHO.

Trayvon went to the store to buy his skittles and a can of tea. Once he got into the gates, his home was approximately 100 yards. It would have taken an average person about 3 minutes or less to walk that distance. An average athlete running, would get home in about 1 1/2 minutes. I don't recall the players name, but one guy could run a 120 yd. field in 12 seconds.

From the time Zimmerman saw Trayvon run, 2 minutes into the 911 call, to the time Zimmerman hung up with dispatch and still did not have Trayvon in his sights, 4 minutes into the call, Trayvon had a full 2 minutes to run, or even walk briskly, home, yet the altercation took place in an area close to where Trayvon was first spotted, near the club house. Even if he were not running, even if he had been casually strolling home, it would not have taken the four minutes the 911 call lasted for him to get, at least, within feet from his house.

What was he doing? Even if Zimmerman got out of his truck and ignored what the dispatcher had told him, you cannot convince me that Trayvon, a 6' 160 lb football player, could not outrun Zimmerman.

We are not talking someone stalking a kid for an hour through a neighborhood of winding roads and dark alleys, this is a gated community and his house was, according to his father, pretty much a straight shot.

Does this not bug anyone but me? Why not just go home or call 911? As far as my opinion goes, I haven't formed one yet. Firmly planted :fence: trying to figure it out.

I am not singling you out, because several posters have asked "Why didn't Tray just run home?" But remember, he didn't live here. His dad didn't live here. It was the neighborhood of the dad's girlfriend. For all we know, it was Tray's first time in the neighborhood.

When he left, it was still light and probably seemed like an easy walk. But once it was dusk and GZ chased him off his planned path, all those condos must have looked the same. Especially from the back! I think Tray must have gotten turned around and was not sure which way to go. I cannot imagine how terrified he must have been in a strange place with fading light and a scary man chasing him for no reason.

 

[jjenny]

I think that trial might be going on now. I haven't followed it closely but saw on tv that the victim's young daughter, who was there that day, was testifying.

It's not a jury trial. First, because Mr. Dooley claims self-defense, his case goes before a judge that will decide if Mr. Dooley actually has to stand trial.

"In September 2010, Trevor Dooley stormed into a park near his home outside Tampa, angry because a teenager was skateboarding on the basketball court. Dooley was carrying a .32-caliber semiautomatic handgun in his pants, and it was visible to David James, 41, who was in the park with his 8-year-old daughter. James tried to disarm Dooley, who is now 71, and as the two men tussled on the ground, Dooley shot James in the chest, killing him. Prosecutors, not surprisingly, charged Dooley with manslaughter. But if Dooley's lawyers can convince a judge by next week that he fired the gun because his life was being threatened — that he is therefore protected under Florida's "stand your ground" law — Dooley may well walk away a free man."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2109511,00.html#ixzz1q4DUaDZb

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't believe the judge ruled yet if Mr. Dooley will even go on trial.

"In September 2010, Trevor Dooley stormed into a park near his home outside Tampa, angry because a teenager was skateboarding on the basketball court. Dooley was carrying a .32-caliber semiautomatic handgun in his pants, and it was visible to David James, 41, who was in the park with his 8-year-old daughter. James tried to disarm Dooley, who is now 71, and as the two men tussled on the ground, Dooley shot James in the chest, killing him. Prosecutors, not surprisingly, charged Dooley with manslaughter. But if Dooley's lawyers can convince a judge by next week that he fired the gun because his life was being threatened — that he is therefore protected under Florida's "stand your ground" law — Dooley may well walk away a free man."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2109511,00.html#ixzz1q4DUaDZb

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2109511,00.html

At least they are making him prove it? More than we can say here?

 

[gxm]

That reminds me of something. In the police report the first two responding officers said they did not know Zimmerman. I thought that was strange as many times as he had called.

Thanks for the correction. I must have misremembered. I thought one of the cops said he knew him.

 

[jjenny]

At least they are making him prove it? More than we can say here?

No. It's the other way around. They are making prosecution prove it. Prosecution has to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt for judge to even allow Mr. Dooley to go on trial.

 

[porkchop]

What about the other cases where people who walked out after stand your ground was determined with little more than a police report. At least 50 cases. Did the police know them too? Call the law problematic, call the cops inept, but saying just because they knew him they let him go doesn't wash with the statistics.

Besides the fact that Zimmerman's own lawyer and the Governor of Florida both said that this isn't as stand your ground case, do you have any citations from any case were a person killed somebody and claimed stand your ground, and absolutely no investigation was done to determine if it was true or not? Any links to any cases were the police just took the persons word for it like in this case?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Trayvon went to the store to buy his skittles and a can of tea. Once he got into the gates, his home was approximately 100 yards. It would have taken an average person about 3 minutes or less to walk that distance. An average athlete running, would get home in about 1 1/2 minutes. I don't recall the players name, but one guy could run a 120 yd. field in 12 seconds.

From the time Zimmerman saw Trayvon run, 2 minutes into the 911 call, to the time Zimmerman hung up with dispatch and still did not have Trayvon in his sights, 4 minutes into the call, Trayvon had a full 2 minutes to run, or even walk briskly, home, yet the altercation took place in an area close to where Trayvon was first spotted, near the club house. Even if he were not running, even if he had been casually strolling home, it would not have taken the four minutes the 911 call lasted for him to get, at least, within feet from his house.

What was he doing? Even if Zimmerman got out of his truck and ignored what the dispatcher had told him, you cannot convince me that Trayvon, a 6' 160 lb football player, could not outrun Zimmerman.

We are not talking someone stalking a kid for an hour through a neighborhood of winding roads and dark alleys, this is a gated community and his house was, according to his father, pretty much a straight shot.

Does this not bug anyone but me? Why not just go home or call 911? As far as my opinion goes, I haven't formed one yet. Firmly planted :fence: trying to figure it out.

I went back and looked at your transcript of the 911 call by zimmerman. I wanted to try to map it out what went on but I think it's impossible to do because half the time zimmerman does not know where he is and the other half of the time we don't know if zimmerman is driving around, turning around or on the same street as Martin or cutting Martin off. All we know for sure is where Martin was shot and wasn't that 100 yards from his home?

 

[LolaMoon08]

Besides the fact that Zimmerman's own lawyer and the Governor of Florida both said that this isn't as stand your ground case, do you have any citations from any case were a person killed somebody and claimed stand your ground, and absolutely no investigation was done to determine if it was true or not? Any links to any cases were the police just took the persons word for it like in this case?

Especially when it happened outside of an actual home or business and a crime was actually being commited?

 

[vlpate]

Al Sharpton is probably with his family - his mother died Thursday morning. Since she lived in Dothan, I think he went ahead and attended the rally Thursday in Sanford because he already had the tickets. To get to Dothan would be a drive or a local flight whether he went from Orlando or Atlanta.

Maybe the Martin family is taking a break from the media?

It was important enough on the day Al Sharpton's mother died to attend a rally in defense of justice and racial equality, but he can't be bothered to make a simple statement to media when a group of dangerous militants is making public terrorist threats against a white man? Makes it all seem like a personal agenda to me now.

I'm sure the family is taking a break from the media, but not speaking out against this call to violence goes against everything they've said to the media for the past month.

 

[songline]

You know what, let's do this, let's arrest anyone who makes any kind of threat. A man was just arrested for threatening to kill the entire Sanford Police Department and the temporarily-stepped-down Police Chief's Bill Lee's family. If this is what it is going to come down to, then just start arresting those that are threatening to take the law into their own hands... but Zimmerman should be first on that list because he actually acted on it.

Just because Zimmerman should have been arrested is no reason for a bunch of hate group to rear their ugly heads.
SADLY - I do believe that the likes of an Al Sharpton will spring forth such groups.

 

[LolaMoon08]

It was important enough on the day Al Sharpton's mother died to attend a rally in defense of justice and racial equality, but he can't be bothered to make a simple statement to media when a group of dangerous militants is making public terrorist threats against a white man? Makes it all seem like a personal agenda to me now.

I'm sure the family is taking a break from the media, but not speaking out against this call to violence goes against everything they've said to the media for the past month.

Yes, let's all blame the victims for the Black Panther's ignorance.

 

[songline]

It was important enough on the day Al Sharpton's mother died to attend a rally in defense of justice and racial equality, but he can't be bothered to make a simple statement to media when a group of dangerous militants is making public terrorist threats against a white man? Makes it all seem like a personal agenda to me now.

I'm sure the family is taking a break from the media, but not speaking out against this call to violence goes against everything they've said to the media for the past month.

GREAT POST :woohoo:

 

[songline]

Yes, let's all blame the victims for the Black Panther's ignorance.

Al Sharpton is not a victim
He is however a public speaker.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

PARDON!
when violence is threatened and it is in the name of your family/ or cause.
It is only right that they stand up and say we do not condone what they said and would appreciate peace not violence with connection to the case.

I don't recall anyone demanding Jodie Foster stand up and say she did not condone what's his name trying to assassinate the president to impress her.

 

[flourish]

It was important enough on the day Al Sharpton's mother died to attend a rally in defense of justice and racial equality, but he can't be bothered to make a simple statement to media when a group of dangerous militants is making public terrorist threats against a white man? Makes it all seem like a personal agenda to me now.

I'm sure the family is taking a break from the media, but not speaking out against this call to violence goes against everything they've said to the media for the past month.

Wow. Man can't turn his electronics off for the weekend to mourn his own mama. Shameful acts, these.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Thanks for the correction. I must have misremembered. I thought one of the cops said he knew him.

Both say later identified. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

 

[LambChop]

Wasn't TM's father talking about the 100 yards distance between where TM was shot to their home? Somewhere on the threads is a map with where GZ first spotted TM where TM was shot and where the home is located. It appears TM was 1/2 way home.

I do believe that TM may have felt afraid this man would follow him home and endanger both he and his brother. It is possible. jmo

 

[gxm]

This is totally inconsistent. GZ pretends he doesn't know Trayvon's race or age at the start of the call, but if he truly couldn't see Tray's face, how did he know Tray was not a neighbor just out for a walk? This is the first lie of many, IMHO.


(respectfully snipped

I think that the aimless way Tray was walking (common among teens especially if they are talking on the phone) and looking at the houses (maybe he was lost/disconcerted as he did not live in the neighborhood) caught GZ's attention. I just don't see that GZ planned the shooting to the point of setting up an alibi with the phone transcripts. IMO, that's a huge stretch and is not supported by the, admittedly scant, evidence we have to work with.

 

[songline]

I went back and looked at your transcript of the 911 call by zimmerman. I wanted to try to map it out what went on but I think it's impossible to do because half the time zimmerman does not know where he is and the other half of the time we don't know if zimmerman is driving around, turning around or on the same street as Martin or cutting Martin off. All we know for sure is where Martin was shot and wasn't that 100 yards from his home?

This puzzles me...he does live in that community.

 

[Talina]

I am not suggesting anything sinister..
A poster wanted to know why the police could not access the details of that phon.
SO I said WHAT IFFFFF? there are no calls on that phone from parents looking for the boy the night he went missing? That may not look good.
That was a question, not an accusation.

They are not going to show if for some reason the phone is powered off. Trayvon's dad said he did call Trayvon's phone and that it went straight to voice mail. In that case, it is not going to show on the incoming call history.

IMO