FL FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88

Okay! Thanks. That’s what I was trying to describe but I didn’t know how to describe it.
Dec. 26, 2019.rbbm
'A group of self-taught investigators is confronting the limits of using DNA and genetic genealogy to identify victims'.
By Sarah Zhang

''In September 1988, a man looking for cypress wood discovered a body in the marshy forests of Florida. The body was too decomposed to be recognizable, but police made note of what they could: a denim skirt, manicured nails, long dyed-blond hair, breast implants. A prominent forensic anthropologist noticed pitting in the pelvic bones, which he attributed to hormonal changes from childbirth. He proclaimed her a woman—a mother, in fact, who had likely given birth more than once. She became known as “Julie Doe.”

''In 2015, however, new DNA tests revealed that she actually had XY chromosomes. Julie Doe was a transgender woman. The pitting in her pelvic bones was likely the result of hormone therapy, rather than childbirth.
Her real name, however, remains unknown.''

''Julie Doe’s case was the very first taken up by the Trans Doe Task Force, a small group of volunteers specializing in cold cases with transgender victims. Lee and Anthony Redgrave, a married couple in western Massachusetts, founded the group last year. They began as volunteers with the nonprofit DNA Doe Project, which tries to find names for unidentified bodies through genetic genealogy—a method that combines searching DNA databases with more traditional research of family trees. Genetic genealogy has recently revolutionized cold cases, but Lee and Anthony quickly saw the limits of DNA and family trees for victims who are transgender. (Lee identifies as gender-nonbinary. Anthony is a trans man; he also found out a few years ago that he was born intersex.) For trans victims, genetic genealogy is most likely to lead to a dead name—the name they were born under but not the chosen name they actually lived by.

“What if somebody isn’t living by their legal name?” Anthony said when I met the Redgraves in Massachusetts this month. “And what if their family doesn’t care?” Lee added. “What if their family didn’t want them, and that’s why they were unidentified? And what if they have a chosen family that does want to take care of them?”

''Her case has proved tricky, as labs have been unable to extract enough DNA. But the volunteers haven’t given up. Her DNA has been to four different labs now, and her latest sequencing results are expected soon''
 
So many of the 'long term' Does I've been following for ages have been IDed in the last couple of years. Still hanging out for IDs for two of the probable/possible transgender Does I keep tabs on.

Live Oak Street Doe was IDed, not publicly, but that doesn't matter, she got a name back, hopefully, her chosen one. But I'm still waiting for that notice that they've IDed Chimney Doe and Julie Doe. They've been waiting for such a long time. And I know they're working with very degraded remains, especially in the case of Miss Chimney. But they deserve to come home, in the same way everyone does, from the most innocent babes found in garbage bins and recycling centres to the meanest of gangsters found in cement foundations or Lake Mead. Everyone deserves respect after death. Everybody. And part of that is calling someone by their name. It's just more complicated when your biology and the name on your birth certificate hasn't ever felt like yours. And when you're looking for found family, and a pandemic erases most of a generation of queer folk, it just makes it so much harder.

I know it can be done, though. So I check, and I wait, and I hope, that 2023 will be the year.

Let's bring them home. Whatever home means, wherever it may be. No one should wait for thirty years in a box in a storage room.

An ID, a name, dignity, family, community, for these Does, and all the rest.

2023. So mote it be.
I hope so too. LGBT hate crimes are sadly still rampant. Live Oak Doe got her name back in 2021, so happy for her! Hopefully she has the name that she chose given to her. She deserves it. I’m fine with not knowing her name. They probably had concerns about releasing her deadname. I’m sure she was estranged from her family, as this was the 80s and LGBT was less accepted in society. She was probably still known by her deadname to her family. But still, she’s been identified and that’s really what matters. We don’t need to know her name as much as SHE needed it back. She’s a human being and deserves the same respect in death as we would in life. She bled the same blood we did. She breathed the same air we did.

As a member of the LGBT community myself (lesbian) the trans Doe cases hit so hard. I’m not trans, I’m a cis woman, but I support everyone. Hoping Julie gets her name back too. They’ve made some progress with her case, getting chromosomes from her to correctly identify her as a transgender woman rather than a cisgender woman. DNA Doe Project also worked on Pillar Point Doe. They were identified too (name withheld). DNA Doe Project is working on Julie’s case right now. Hopefully some new leads are made, maybe a family member, even a 4th or 5th cousin is out there somewhere. She probably has siblings or friends still around that may recognize the sketch. She would be in her 50s or 60s if she was still alive. If she was 30 when she died for example she’d be 65 now. Assuming she was 22 to 35 she’d be between 57 and 70. Likely born between 1953-1966.
 
There was a report on Orlando's WESH TV Channel 2 today (5/31/23) - same info, but always good to have more eyes on Julie's case:

Yeah. I was like… didn’t they determine that she was assigned male at birth in like 2015, lol. It is good she’s getting some media coverage. Hopefully this is her year.
 
"It's awfully hard to solve a murder if we don't know who the victim is,” said cold case Det. Daniel Conlee with the Lake County Sheriff’s Office.

"It was very suspicious. The fact that this female had been dragged from the road about thirty feet into the bushes indicates some sort of concealment which usually is indicative of a homicide,” Conlee said.

"Really, no leads to speak of after we talked to some locals at the time. Nothing seemed to pan out and the case went cold after a while,” Conlee said.

"I did sketches for Chicago PD, Honolulu PD, New York. I did sketches for anybody that asked,” said retired Det. Stephen Fusco from the Orange County Sheriff’s Office.

"As a forensic artist, you're looking for clues,” Fusco said.

"You have to work with a forensic anthropologist. You have to work with a hairdresser,” Fusco said.

Fusco's sketch was released, but no one came forward to identify her.

"Their main anthropologist at the time determined this could be a male based on a lot of advancements in technology. Eventually, they did an experiment and realized Julie Doe was actually born as a male based on the chromosomes,” Conlee said.

And Conlee says an isotope analysis revealed Julie Doe likely spent most of her life In the Kissimmee River area. Probably Polk County down to Monroe County.

Over the years, they've entered her DNA and dental records into more databases with no hits. So now, they've turned to the DNA Doe Project.

"Which is a nonprofit that helps investigators, police agencies and people like that, conduct studies. Mainly genealogical studies,” Conlee said.

“Not all of them are going to pan out. And, of course, there has to be branches of a family tree,” Conlee said. “They're constructing that as we speak. But we're not quite close enough yet to go to a specific city or state to talk to these relatives. Hopefully, we get to that point."
 
Yeah, normally I am one who wants to know as many details possible about the people after they are identified, but in a case like Julie's I would be fine not knowing her identity because of all the potential issues that could arise from that (like only releasing her deadname, not wanting to deadname her but only knowing that and not the name she lived by, not wanting to attract media attention from hateful people, etc.). I would be happy to just hear that she has been ID'd and left at that.
 
Yeah, normally I am one who wants to know as many details possible about the people after they are identified, but in a case like Julie's I would be fine not knowing her identity because of all the potential issues that could arise from that (like only releasing her deadname, not wanting to deadname her but only knowing that and not the name she lived by, not wanting to attract media attention from hateful people, etc.). I would be happy to just hear that she has been ID'd and left at that.
I disagree. Their case is a chance to educate the public that transgender is real and not something unusual. Deadnaming is not what they wanted in life but maybe over the dead name we find their actual name and their story can finally be told and can help raise awareness against hate crimes. And if they were indeed an escort, their story can help raise awareness and compassion for the dangers sexworkers have to face every day. It is one of the most dangerous professions on earth.

Hey, gorgeous, for Pride month we want you to come home and sparkle and shine as you did in life. And whoever did that to you needs to rot in prison forever.
 
I disagree. Their case is a chance to educate the public that transgender is real and not something unusual. Deadnaming is not what they wanted in life but maybe over the dead name we find their actual name and their story can finally be told and can help raise awareness against hate crimes. And if they were indeed an escort, their story can help raise awareness and compassion for the dangers sexworkers have to face every day. It is one of the most dangerous professions on earth.

Hey, gorgeous, for Pride month we want you to come home and sparkle and shine as you did in life. And whoever did that to you needs to rot in prison forever.
If it can be handled appropriately and respectfully, I would love to know her true name and story! I just do have concerns about the whole thing. If it's handled well then I am all for it. I do worry about the hate though.
 
Yeah, normally I am one who wants to know as many details possible about the people after they are identified, but in a case like Julie's I would be fine not knowing her identity because of all the potential issues that could arise from that (like only releasing her deadname, not wanting to deadname her but only knowing that and not the name she lived by, not wanting to attract media attention from hateful people, etc.). I would be happy to just hear that she has been ID'd and left at that.
This I agree with. There’s been other transgender and gender variant Does in the past that have had their names withheld. So many issues arriving from that.
 
If it can be handled appropriately and respectfully, I would love to know her true name and story! I just do have concerns about the whole thing. If it's handled well then I am all for it. I do worry about the hate though.
Hard agree. That’s what I’d love. I would love for her name to be out here. Not her deadname but her preferred name. I would love for her story to be told as it is. There are many concerns obviously. Look. I’m a member of the community myself, I’m cisgender, but I’m a lesbian. Living in the south, welp, I still have to hide my status as a lesbian from most people except for those I’m close to.

It sucks, I know. Some people already can just tell from me holding hands with my girlfriend. As much as I would absolutely love to do that everywhere I go I just cannot do it because it’s just a big, big concern for her safety and mine. I’ve already been berated in public for my sexuality once. Don’t need it happening again.

Back to Julie since she’s the star of the show. If her information is released (her real name, as in the one that SHE used!) then there will be some troll who still lives in his mom’s basement who will release her birth name to the public. It is what it is. Sadly that’s just what will happen. More likely than not her name will be withheld but I’m more concerned about her being identified honestly.
 
This is definitely a case that has really puzzled me, as I know it has all of you too. I'm frankly surprised that the rule-out list is so short? But it's encouraging that her case is with the DNA Doe Project as of this month now, so I hope she is identified soon!


With doing a little digging around, I found Clif as an intriguing option. He went missing from Lakeland FL in August 83, at the age of 16. A bit young to then turn around and immediately receive those breast implants before they were discontinued in 83/84, but the circumstances and location are just too hard to overlook..as mentioned above in #426, Julie Doe likely spent most of her life in the Kissimmee River area of Polk County. Lakeland, where Clif is from, is within Polk County. Clermont FL, where Julie was discovered, is just 40ish miles north of Lakeland. There isn't much further information on Clif beyond the few sites that list his case, but it appears he was struggling with some 'mental illness' and had been hospitalized on more than one occasion due to schizophrenia. He even had to attend a class at his school for the 'emotionally disturbed'. But isn't it presumable, as a 16 year old in the early 80s, to wonder if he was actually struggling with his identity? And it was misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, which he then was medicated for? I imagine it to be so isolating to have those types of thoughts - and there really wasn't an open dialogue back then to even have a conversation about it. His friends reported he left in a vehicle driven by an unknown individual, and his parents noticed a screen from his bedroom window had been removed, and clothing and a little bit of money was also missing from his room. His parents don't believe he ran away, but I can't help but lean towards this possibility.

Again, it's just so striking to me the resemblance, height/weight, and area where Clif went missing vs Julie's discovery. That would mean Clif stayed 'close to home' after leaving his life behind to start afresh. Maybe he even kept an eye on his family after he left, now as his new identity. Guilt of leaving family and an old life behind, but stepping in to who you feel you truly are. Such a mystery for Julie, and Clif..anywho, I clearly have run away with my story idea!

There is also Michael Richard Carbonari – The Charley Project, but I only 'like' him because of the year he went missing, age, that he was from Tampa (unclear if that's where he was born/grew up), and his characteristics. Unfortunately, there is nothing listed about his life to indicate anything further.
 
I am wondering if this person might have been intersex. Raised a female though eventually when puberty started, discovered to be make. Thus, the hormones and surgery?

Here is an article about transitioning in the 1980s. There has to be a way to track this person. Such a small group of people and providers available.

 
<SBM>......There has to be a way to track this person. Such a small group of people and providers available.

Not necessarily, as explained upthread some ways. For example Thailand started offering surgeries in the 70s and has always derived a significant proportion of patients from the west. Mandatory counselling wasn't required in Thailand (as an example) until the early 2000's, so there may not have even been a pre=surgery paper trail back in the foreign patient's home country.
 
Iran offers sex reassignment surgery..
Apr 4th 2019
''Attitudes towards sexuality can be rigid in Iran. A conservative former president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, once declared that the country didn’t have any gay people. So it seems an unlikely hub for sex-reassignment surgery. But the procedure has been permitted since the mid-1980s, when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini met a trans woman called Maryam Khatoon Molkara, who had been thrown into a psychiatric institution and forcibly injected with male hormones. Moved by her story, he issued a fatwa allowing the procedure, which a cleric later compared to changing wheat into bread. Today the government even helps with the cost.''

''Gay Iranians face pressure to change their sex regardless of whether they want to, say activists and psychologists in Iran. Therapists tell patients with same-sex desires that they may be transgender, not gay.''

''Anaya is one of those worldly baby names that’s really taken off in popularity in the 21st century. It has roots in both Hebrew, where it means “God answers,” and in Arabic, where it means “caring.”
 

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