FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[Razz]

But if she was so frightened by them, why leave her locked up home and go outside? She knew the police were on their way. She had a loaded weapon.

If they had walked across her front yard and began knocking on her door, I could understand her being frightened. I would have shot them myself if they were pounding at the door, threatening to come inside. Even that would be illegal, but if there were 3 of them and they had followed her home, it might have been considered self defense.

But I cannot believe that she was severely afraid and so she went OUTSIDE to confront them. That doesn't make sense to me at all. That sounds more like anger than fear to me.

Also, those 3 men did follow her home. But they were speaking to the 911 dispatcher at the same time. If they had followed her to do harm to her, they wouldn't be sitting on the phone with dispach, imo.

I don't believe they were on their phones with dispatch after the original accident.

I firmly believe that they would have been told to stand down and back off.

 

[lonetraveler]

But if she was so frightened by them, why leave her locked up home and go outside? She knew the police were on their way. She had a loaded weapon.

If they had walked across her front yard and began knocking on her door, I could understand her being frightened. I would have shot them myself if they were pounding at the door, threatening to come inside. Even that would be illegal, but if there were 3 of them and they had followed her home, it might have been considered self defense.

But I cannot believe that she was severely afraid and so she went OUTSIDE to confront them. That doesn't make sense to me at all. That sounds more like anger than fear to me.

Also, those 3 men did follow her home. But they were speaking to the 911 dispatcher at the same time. If they had followed her to do harm to her, they wouldn't be sitting on the phone with dispach, imo.

You echoed my thoughts exactly.

 

[cvaldez1975]

true, but under different circumstances. I do think his final actions that day were coloured by his initials feelings about her trying to run into him on the highway.

So when she came out of her house, waving the gun, coming right up to them, yelling, he probably had that vision, of her veering into him on the highway, seared into his memory.

then if thats the case its probably murder. but no way to prove it so.....,

 

[cvaldez1975]

I cannot even count how many bikers in SF and LA I have almost hit while changing lanes during commutes because they approached at a high rate of speed out of my line of sight while I was changing lanes. It’s very upsetting to experience and happens far too often. I inevitably stop my lane change and they pass, sometimes with an obscene gesture as if I’m at fault.
Listening to the morning and afternoon commute traffic on the radio while driving, motorcyclists die regularly, almost daily, and yet very rarely is anyone charged for those deaths, hardly ever. I remember reading a cop was killed making this move and even then the driver who hit him wasn’t charged.
Traveling on roads on a bike one should be extra cautious maneuvering, it’s definitely not a wise position to come at someone with road rage on a bike, kicking cars.
If there is an actual road war, one upping, between an SUV and a bike, the bike will lose every time but that didn’t happen here, there was no traffic injury.

ETA: Police Officer Riding Motorcycle Struck And Killed By Big Rig On I-80 In Vallejo | Dolan Law Firm

same.... once i was merging onto the freeway and making my way to the commuter lane, it was all clear, there was a big rig in the second to last lane way behind me so i made it to the commuter lane only to see a motorcyclist jammin about 100 mph come from behind the big rig, he slowed and merged in front of the big rig, flipped me off and contined lane splitting on his merry way at 100 mph. im very careful w motorcyclists and even if they were drving crazy i would feel awful if i ever hit one. i usually move over for them. but ya some drive like crap.

 

[Razz]

My thoughts exactly.

From news site linked below: "Multiple witnesses, including Derr, followed Morales’ blue Kia to the next intersection, where they told her to stop because police were on the way..."

Pregnant Florida library worker killed after pulling gun on biker she intentionally hit with car

For all we know, AD might even have discreetly flashed his 'concealed' weapon while pulling up next to her. Thus her panic. But we'll never know.

It just bothers me so much that police seemed to wrap this up with such haste.

Yes, imo "this investigation" was too hurried, too rushed...nothing to see here folks, move along.

 

[Catmommy]

Yes, imo "this investigation" was too hurried, too rushed...nothing to see here folks, move along.

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

 

[cvaldez1975]

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

thats our question as well. to be fair, we dont know its closed.

 

[Razz]

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

Please read this article from the Daytona Beach news dated January 25th. It is a more detailed article with more interviews and news that contradicts Orange City PD, and some of D's assertions. It is long and involved but if

 

[Razz]

Please read this article from the Daytona Beach news dated January 25th. It is a more detailed article with more interviews and news that contradicts Orange City PD, and some of D's assertions. It is long and involved but if

Sorry don't know why this didn't copy. I have posted it many times in this thread and have encouraged people to read it.

It is dated January 25, 2022 by the Daytona Beach Journalline.

It is long and takes time to read it. Most people have not taken the time, unfortunately.

Biker says library worker pointed gun before she was fatally shot

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

There were media stories back in November (linked in this thread) quoting police as saying Morales was the aggressor. Seems to me they made up their minds if they're publicly calling her the aggressor. I don't know if the police closed it (I thought they had?), but I think someone upthread said the state attorney's office is still investigating. I also repeated this.

Law enforcement is human too and like many others, I think they believed the facts told back in November. With one person dead, a he said/she said is strictly a "he said" and he's convincing. He's also a biker. Was there bias? Maybe. But even if not, they are not going to get the whole story because Morales can't share her version of things. As Razz posted, an article in January is different from an article in November. It makes you wonder. From the start, some here said there's something weird about this whole story. As a biker, some might empathize with Derr especially with the narrative that she "intentionally" hit him, but she isn't here to defend herself so we don't know if that was intentional or not and even if she did hit him intentionally, we didn't know he began the whole thing by speeding, by yelling at her, and then after she hit him, by "chasing her down" and kicking her car. All of that was left out of early media reports but with it included, it does cast more doubt on his version of events.

I don't have any motive really to make this a sexist thing; I have no skin in the game. But I do think there's a big difference in how men and women view incidents like these and I'm not sure that was taken into account by police. I think they heard the story and wrote it off as the aggressor gets killed rather than a road rage incident that needs to be fully investigated.

As a lay person, anytime you have a case in which whoever dies, the other person has a viable self defense claim, I think those are the cases that should realistically take the longest to investigate. The cops seemed to very quickly on this one.

MOO.

 

[GatorFL]

Yes, imo "this investigation" was too hurried, too rushed...nothing to see here folks, move along.

Well, it fits what we know. She was aggressive in the car and that trend continued when she got home. She left the safety of her home and waved a gun in front of 3 men.

"The traffic dispute escalated when Morales swerved her car at the biker, the report said. Her vehicle struck the motorcycle’s saddlebags, leaving a scuff mark and almost causing the biker to wreck, according to the report."

"She came towards us and when she was about 15 feet away she raised a gun at me,” Derr told police, according to a report. “It was pointed at me. I was scared to death and immediately drew my firearm and defended myself.”

Nicolas Hirst, one of the other two men who followed Morales, told police Morales came out of the house and told the men she was on the phone with police, the report stated.

“She then pulled out a gun and waved it at the three of us. I stepped back, said 'calm down' and before I knew it, the male motorcyclist drew his gun and shot the female what sounded like five times,” Hirst stated, according to the report.

So she did get shot and die close to the roadway.

 

[GatorFL]

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

Do we know it was closed without a through investigation?

I obtained a case file for a 25 year+Jane Doe from another police department in FL and I was surprised at how through it was. This one will be able to be requested as well when the investigation is over, I plan on doing so.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

So she did get shot and die close to the roadway.

Because Derr says 15 ft?

 

[GatorFL]

Because Derr says 15 ft?

There were other witnesses to these events. In the mother's interview she pointed to a spot about 15' from the road and said "she died right here." I'd say that is pretty good corroboration.

 

[Razz]

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

This is just my opinion, but I think one of the reasons this case has been handed off to other authorities is because there must have been tremendous blowback at the the findings of OCPD. As you can see from this thread alone, there is a great deal of passion and wariness how a pregnant woman driving home from volunteering, ends up dead after she was chased home by 3 men. All one has to do is read the thread here (and I try to read every comment) and comments on the OCPD page to see how split people are on this case.

There are those who see it in black and white and others see the circumstances leading to SM's death and it's not so clear. I view it from the perspective as a woman and how frightened I/she would have been. Should SM have stayed in the house? Yes, but, the same can be argued that these 3 men had no business taking the law into their own hands.

The article that I posted tells a slightly different story from what the police stated were the facts. Witnesses say it was Derr who got aggressive with her first. (Imo, because she changed into his lane when he was traveling at what witnesses call "a high rate of speed".)

Do I think sexism is involved here? Yes, I do. So, I just ask that people read what all they can about this case and come to their own conclusions.

 

[cvaldez1975]

This is just my opinion, but I think one of the reasons this case has been handed off to other authorities is because there must have been tremendous blowback at the the findings of OCPD. As you can see from this thread alone, there is a great deal of passion and wariness how a pregnant woman driving home from volunteering, ends up dead after she was chased home by 3 men. All one has to do is read the thread here (and I try to read every comment) and comments on the OCPD page to see how split people are on this case.

There are those who see it in black and white and others see the circumstances leading to SM's death and it's not so clear. I view it from the perspective as a woman and how frightened I/she would have been. Should SM have stayed in the house? Yes, but, the same can be argued that these 3 men had no business taking the law into their own hands.

The article that I posted tells a slightly different story from what the police stated were the facts. Witnesses say it was Derr who got aggressive with her first. (Imo, because she changed into his lane when he was traveling at what witnesses call "a high rate of speed".)

Do I think sexism is involved here? Yes, I do. So, I just ask that people read what all they can about this case and come to their own conclusions.

i think its a lot of 2nd amendment lovers and bikers that are taking it for narrative too. it rankles me for the sexism reason.

ETA i think the other biker joined in but got uncomfty when this unfolded and dialed back when interviewed. MOO

 

[GatorFL]

For all of those who feel this way, because I am such a nosy parker: why would law enforcement want to close this investigation so quickly and summarily? Do we know it's been closed? Asking because I'm interested in knowing. I always want to know.

I know for a fact that it is not closed.

I sent in a request via US mail for the autopsy report on Sara Morales. I was denied the request at this time. Here is the email I received from the medical examiner:

Good morning,
The Medical Examiner's Office is in receipt of your records request.
The case for which you have requested a report is currently considered to be either under “active criminal intelligence" or "active criminal investigation", per Florida Statue 119.071(2) (c) 1, which says:

“Active criminal intelligence information and active criminal investigative information are exempt from s. 119.07(1) and s. 24(a), Art. I of the State Constitution.”

Please note as of January, 2019 a new amendment to the Florida Constitution took effect. Marsy’s Law, Amendment 6, Article 1, Section 16 now prohibits revealing the name, age, residence, place of death and next of kin information in criminal cases. This information will now be redacted from our reports.
Once the report is able to be made public record, you may receive it with the necessary redactions made.

 

[Kittybunny]

I know for a fact that it is not closed.

I sent in a request via US mail for the autopsy report on Sara Morales. I was denied the request at this time. Here is the email I received from the medical examiner:

Good morning,
The Medical Examiner's Office is in receipt of your records request.
The case for which you have requested a report is currently considered to be either under “active criminal intelligence" or "active criminal investigation", per Florida Statue 119.071(2) (c) 1, which says:

“Active criminal intelligence information and active criminal investigative information are exempt from s. 119.07(1) and s. 24(a), Art. I of the State Constitution.”

Please note as of January, 2019 a new amendment to the Florida Constitution took effect. Marsy’s Law, Amendment 6, Article 1, Section 16 now prohibits revealing the name, age, residence, place of death and next of kin information in criminal cases. This information will now be redacted from our reports.
Once the report is able to be made public record, you may receive it with the necessary redactions made.

Definitely not closed.

Not that it needs additional confirmation but the article posted up thread says:

"The Orange City Police Department handed over its investigation to 7th Circuit State Attorney R.J. Larizza’s Office, which will decide whether any charges will be filed in the case."

 

[PayrollNerd]

I truly believe this will come down to "can we get anything to stick" and that will be the end of it. My friend, the attorney always told me, "It is not about what's right or wrong. It's about what you can prove in a court of law." Can they 100% prove the aggressiveness of either party via businesses video, traffic cam, home cameras, known and unknown witnesses, tire marks, etc.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

There were other witnesses to these events. In the mother's interview she pointed to a spot about 15' from the road and said "she died right here." I'd say that is pretty good corroboration.

Where she died, not necessarily where she was shot so I don't see that as corroboration. I'll be curious to see the report. JMO.