Flashlight

[LI_Mom]

SuperDave, what I'd like to know it if the velocity of a dropped or thrown Maglite could have done serious damage to her skull.

If not, the general consensus seems to be that Burke would not be powerful enough to fatally wound JB.


The theory that seems most logical to me is that both parents would coverup to protect their surviving child but it's much harder to believe they would coverup for each other.

I would think they told Burke in no uncertain terms to get up to his room & NOT move a muscle until they called him. And they went about what they had to do.

If we are to believe the enhanced 911 call, Burke did sneak downstairs & was still upset. His parents yelled at him & he returns to his room & remains there until his father 'officially' wakes him.

If we discount the enhanced 911 call, then the Ramseys never even bothered to wake Burke (an almost 10 year old boy, hardly a baby) and ask him if he heard or saw ANYTHING last night. It's impossible to believe they would call all those friends to come over for support & not still nobody bothers to ask the only person on that floor if HE knew anything.

I just don't believe they didn't want to upset Burke. They're out of their minds with worry about JB and they're concerned about upsetting Burke? Yeah right.

 

[Britt]

What if he dropped the flashlight from the very top of the staircase... and it landed on the top of her head?

***

Could Patsy have lost it & then concocted the coverup because she thought JB was dead?

Hi LI Mom and welcome

But why the elaborate coverup for a simple accident? When Burke whacked JonBenét with the golf club, they took her to the doctor.

They had to have been covering up something worth covering up. IMO the medical evidence makes it obvious what that was -- prior and ongoing abuse.

That would also explain why Burke is scared silent.

I agree that Burke was scared silent, but not because he was involved in what happened to JonBenét.

 

[LI_Mom]

Thanks for the welcome, Britt.

The one thing that prevented this case from going to trial, imo, is that no one theory made complete sense. I agree with you that it's unlikely Patsy would flip out over an accident BUT what if this was such a serious accident that she thought JB was dead. Would the fear of Burke being arrested be enough to push her over the edge?

What kind of shape would a young child be in if they have an almost 8 inch skull fracture? Would she be at all responsive? Would they detect a pulse or would it be so faint & they are so nervous they can't feel it?

 

[BBB167893]

"SuperDave, what I'd like to know it if the velocity of a dropped or thrown Maglite could have done serious damage to her skull."

No idea.

"If we discount the enhanced 911 call, then the Ramseys never even bothered to wake Burke (an almost 10 year old boy, hardly a baby) and ask him if he heard or saw ANYTHING last night. It's impossible to believe they would call all those friends to come over for support & not still nobody bothers to ask the only person on that floor if HE knew anything."

Would any of you parents let him out of your sight for ONE SECOND?

 

[Darlene733510]

I have been thinking about JB's head injury, and what could have caused it. I have also done a lot of reading on the JB Forum. Super smart posters here, and many theories.

Could JB's skull fracture have been caused by a hand held shower sprayer. Ours is made of stainless steel, and very sturdy. The spray head is round, and similar to the size of the flashlight.

I think this could happened in a moment of rage or impatience with JB's bedwetting. Perhaps the toilet was next to the tub, and the shower sprayer within reach.

Wasn't there a stange smell in the bathroom. If there was any blood from the head wound, could it have been cleaned up, and flushed down the toilet, and then some type of toilet bowl cleaner used to cover up the crime. Won't bleach cause luminol to be ineffective, and who knows if the bathroom drains were checked for blood.

I seem to remember that something was wrong with one of the bathrooms, and PR couldn't shower there. I wonder what the problem was. Correct me if I am wrong in making this statement.

The white blanket she was wrapped in - was it from her bed? The size 12 panties we know were in a drawer in the bathroom, and I would think that someone in a state of panic would not even realize they were the wrong size.

I think JB was struck on the head in the bathroom, wrapped in the blanket and carried to the basement. I think the flashlight was used because the person who killed her did not want to put on any lights in the house. Why the flashlight and batteries were wiped clean is still a mystery.

After JB was brought to the basement I also believe that the rest was all staged to protect the person who killed her, and I believe that person was PR.

Today I watched th JB movie, and in the end when they
held the press conf., it showed JR & PR watching the outcome, and when they said they weren't charging anyone with a crime, PR began to cry, and it just seemed to me like it was such a relief for both of them. If it had been me, and my child was dead, I would have been outraged, and insisted that they not end the case, and continue to try and find out who killed my child, not sobbing in relief because I felt I was no longer a suspect.

 

[LI_Mom]

Good theory about the shower head IF it's heavy enough to cause such a severe fracture. Maybe it all started in the shower.

I vaguely remember reading in one of the books that they did check the drains. I'd like someone to verify that though because the crime scene was such a series of blunders & oversights, it doesn't sound likely they did.

Patsy's shower was on the third floor. John used his own shower on the same floor. The floor plans can be seen here:

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

 

[tumble]

Darlene733510:

Interesting thought about the shower head and the strange smell.
About the shower head I think this is a litel far fetched, JB was wiped not washed and the obvious distancing from the flashlight seems very clear.
But I think it is definitely worth looking into, answering questions like
1. Did the R's have a heavy showerhead like yours?
2. Did that showerhead have an attachment to the wall the would enable it to be swung with force?
Along these lines is the fact that PRs shower was actually broken, so when was it broken? How was it broken?

About the smell: This cought my attention also because I have not seen any description or comparison of this smell.
In JBR's bathroom there were soiled pant on the floor that someone said made the room smell of feces. That smell would not be described as odd though. So where there another smell in that room? If it was cleaning fluids why would there be any cleaning in the bathroom. JB did not bleed... and there were left soiled pants on the floor.

Maybe the feces indeed gave a strange odor? Pancakes in christmas morning would have given a kind of sulphorous smell about them after passing through body. This could have been perceived as strange by LE.

The whole cleaning business in the house is abit strange. There were a 'windex' cleaning bottle left in the bar and a scarf under a table that gave the impression about cleaning.
Also the 'kleenex' towels left in the dining room that PR had never seen before, supposedly brought to the house by someone else.

Anyone knows how 'windex'' smells? Does it have a strange smell?
Could the smell have come from klorine? I think klorine have a rather strange smell.

Anyone that have read a description of that 'strange' smell?

 

[tumble]

I am starting to believe that the wiped batteries is a very significant clue.

After studying the interviews with PR and JR it is clear that they wan't LE to believe that the flashlight actually is NOT theirs.
Reading this the battery wiping all of a sudden stands out as obvious.
If the flashlight was supposed to be brought by an intruder there could ofcourse NOT be any fingerprints matching any Ramsey on the batteries.

Could the flashlight have been brought by an intruder?
The R's acknowledge that they own a SIMILAR flashlight, to my knowledge they have never shown that flashlight to LE. Doing this would probably end the discussion and by NOT doing this strongly points to the maglite found in the kitchen being indeed their maglite.

If the flashlight was brought by an intruder finding no prints on the batteries would indicate an experinced intruder consious about not leaving prints if for some reason he would have to leave the flashlight(fleeing the scene...) so this could be a meaningful staging attempt BUT finding NO prints on a domestic flashlight is very strange.

Conslusion: The battery wiping strongly implicates staging by a Ramsey.
The fact that they BOTH claim the maglite is not theirs implicates that they BOTH took part in the coverup.

 

[UKGuy]

I am starting to believe that the wiped batteries is a very significant clue.

After studying the interviews with PR and JR it is clear that they wan't LE to believe that the flashlight actually is NOT theirs.
Reading this the battery wiping all of a sudden stands out as obvious.
If the flashlight was supposed to be brought by an intruder there could ofcourse NOT be any fingerprints matching any Ramsey on the batteries.

Could the flashlight have been brought by an intruder?
The R's acknowledge that they own a SIMILAR flashlight, to my knowledge they have never shown that flashlight to LE. Doing this would probably end the discussion and by NOT doing this strongly points to the maglite found in the kitchen being indeed their maglite.

If the flashlight was brought by an intruder finding no prints on the batteries would indicate an experinced intruder consious about not leaving prints if for some reason he would have to leave the flashlight(fleeing the scene...) so this could be a meaningful staging attempt BUT finding NO prints on a domestic flashlight is very strange.

Conslusion: The battery wiping strongly implicates staging by a Ramsey.
The fact that they BOTH claim the maglite is not theirs implicates that they BOTH took part in the coverup.

tumble,

Sure does, of course if an intruder brought that flashlight into the Ramsey house, then no intruder needs to wipe the flashlight, because the intruder should just spare any forensic worry and take it away as the intruder exits the house. Just as Lou Smit would tell you thats probably where her size-6 underwear went too?

It has been suggested by other people that the odor may have been caused by a hair highlighting product?

The flashlight is an excellent example of where a stager makes what they think is consistent step in their overall plan, but viewed objectively it is obviously out of place.


.

 

[tumble]

It has been suggested by other people that the odor may have been caused by a hair highlighting product?

How was the smell decribed?
PR mentions that her 'oil paint' smelled really bad. The oil paint were part of the painting supplies stored in the butlers kitchen prior to christmas and we know the lights were on in the butlers kitchen around midnight. Could it be that the paint or something with fresh paint on it were at some time up in JBs bathroom?

 

[Darlene733510]

I have to wonder if PR did JB's hair herself. If a person is going to have their hair lightened the first thing that would be done is that the hair would be put up off of the head, as JB's was. Then as each section is lightned, the other one would be brought down and lightened also, until the whole head was done.

Who knows what PR would do? Would she do this late at night, and JB would be tired, and not co-operate, causing Mom to become very angry, and strike her. I know PR said she was packing, and getting ready for the trip, but we know we can't believe anything she said. Like the kleenex box - who on earth would bring a box of kleenex to a house to wipe down a flashlight?
I don't doubt that the flashlight belonged to the R's, so why wouldn't the just come right out and admit it?
Even if the flashlight was used only for lighting, it still could have been wiped down. I believe the neighbor saw flickers of light in the kitchen. This could have been from the flashlight. We all know that hair lightener smells about the same as ammonia.

Our shower sprayer is quite heavy, and the hose is at least 6 ft long. IMO, if the R's was like ours, a blow to the head of a child could be caused by one like it. Ours also has about 1/4 inch of metal coiled around the hose. Could this hose swinging around have caused the marks on JB's neck?

I heard that there is still evidence that has never even been sent to a lab for testing. What a shame!
This case could have been solved if there hadn't been so many screw-ups. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they appeased the R's, and to the R's,
that's all they cared about was to protect their reputation. By running off to Atlanta, they were in such a hurry to distance themselves from the mess I believe they created. Makes me think of the saying,
"Out of Sight, Out of Mind".

 

[tumble]

If a person is going to have their hair lightened

Interesting, maybe the perp was trying to bleak something else. Like clothing...

I don't doubt that the flashlight belonged to the R's, so why wouldn't the just come right out and admit it?

Me neither, and how easy it would have been just to show LE their flashlight ending any confusion. But they never did.

We all know that hair lightener smells about the same as ammonia.

If the smell was ammonia it is very interesting because an infection of the urinary tract can produce urine with a strong ammoniacal smell. And JB had indeed such an infection.
This could be an indicator that JB wet her pants in her bathroom, being awake she probably would not wet herself so this could imply that she actually was killed in the bathroom.

 

[BBB167893]

"Could JB's skull fracture have been caused by a hand held shower sprayer. Ours is made of stainless steel, and very sturdy. The spray head is round, and similar to the size of the flashlight. I think this could happened in a moment of rage or impatience with JB's bedwetting. Perhaps the toilet was next to the tub, and the shower sprayer within reach."

You're not the first to think so, Darlene.

"Wasn't there a stange smell in the bathroom. If there was any blood from the head wound, could it have been cleaned up, and flushed down the toilet, and then some type of toilet bowl cleaner used to cover up the crime. Won't bleach cause luminol to be ineffective, and who knows if the bathroom drains were checked for blood."

I think it was a peroxide smell. I don't know if bleach will make luminol ineffective, though.

 

[tumble]

Hydrogen peroxide is one of the strongest oxidants known. Stronger than chlorine but weaker than fluorine. Common usage is to remove bloodstains from clothing and carpets.
If a few tablespoons of peroxide are poured onto the stain, they will bubble up in the area of the blood. After a few minutes the excess liquid can be wiped up with a cloth or paper towel and the stain will be gone.

Now, were there any blood to be removed?
The head wound did not bleed. Did the perp injure herslef/himself?
Did JB bleed from the vaginal abuse?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Hydrogen peroxide is one of the strongest oxidants known. Stronger than chlorine but weaker than fluorine. Common usage is to remove bloodstains from clothing and carpets.
If a few tablespoons of peroxide are poured onto the stain, they will bubble up in the area of the blood. After a few minutes the excess liquid can be wiped up with a cloth or paper towel and the stain will be gone.

Now, were there any blood to be removed?
The head wound did not bleed. Did the perp injure herslef/himself?
Did JB bleed from the vaginal abuse?

Interesting about the peroxide for bloodstain removal.

Yes, there were spots in JonBenet's undies where she bled from being assaulted vaginally. It was from these blood stains that the foreign DNA was found, IIRC.

 

[tumble]

Coud someone please direct me to where the info about the wiped batteries comes from?

 

[Charlie]

Ive also thought the flashlight was major piece of evidence as it defies logic.

I Think the Rams owned the maglite found on the kitchen counter even though they have denied it. So it begs the question why would the ramseys wipe down a flashlight that was thier own? i mean they lived there, they had the perfect excuse for thier fingerprints to be all over the maglite.

I think the only reasonble explanation is that the ramseys staged the flashlight to belong to the inturder, therefore thier fingerprints could not be found on it. The ramseys unforuntetly didnt think far enough ahead as to the absurdity that the intruder would take time to wipe down the maglite exterior and the batteries, because the intuder is smart enough to fear fingerprint and DNA analysis yet not smart enough the just simply take the flashlight with him - doesnt make sense.

I honestly dont think the intruder just simply forgot to take to flashlight with him when he went to the trouble of taking the duct tape. Also the flashlight would have priority number one since it would aid him in escaping during the dead of night.

The biggest red flags in the case is the total lack of logic...nothing makes any sense, unless of course you on the RDI team

 

[tumble]

Ive also thought the flashlight was major piece of evidence as it defies logic.

I Think the Rams owned the maglite found on the kitchen counter even though they have denied it. So it begs the question why would the ramseys wipe down a flashlight that was thier own? i mean they lived there, they had the perfect excuse for thier fingerprints to be all over the maglite.

I think the only reasonble explanation is that the ramseys staged the flashlight to belong to the inturder, therefore thier fingerprints could not be found on it. The ramseys unforuntetly didnt think far enough ahead as to the absurdity that the intruder would take time to wipe down the maglite exterior and the batteries, because the intuder is smart enough to fear fingerprint and DNA analysis yet not smart enough the just simply take the flashlight with him - doesnt make sense.

I honestly dont think the intruder just simply forgot to take to flashlight with him when he went to the trouble of taking the duct tape. Also the flashlight would have priority number one since it would aid him in escaping during the dead of night.

The biggest red flags in the case is the total lack of logic...nothing makes any sense, unless of course you on the RDI team

I agree, and even if you are an RDI there is atleast one thing that does not make sense and that is why JB ended up dead that dreadful night.

I think these wiped batteries is a strong clue, therefore I verymuch would like an indication to where this info comes from. I suspect posting this at webbsleuths.com would be countered with the batteries infact was not wiped or something to that effect.

We know there were no prints found on the batteries but how do we know they were wiped?
Or maybe the circumstancial value of the fact that no print was found on the batteries is enought?

 

[UKGuy]

Ive also thought the flashlight was major piece of evidence as it defies logic.

I Think the Rams owned the maglite found on the kitchen counter even though they have denied it. So it begs the question why would the ramseys wipe down a flashlight that was thier own? i mean they lived there, they had the perfect excuse for thier fingerprints to be all over the maglite.

I think the only reasonble explanation is that the ramseys staged the flashlight to belong to the inturder, therefore thier fingerprints could not be found on it. The ramseys unforuntetly didnt think far enough ahead as to the absurdity that the intruder would take time to wipe down the maglite exterior and the batteries, because the intuder is smart enough to fear fingerprint and DNA analysis yet not smart enough the just simply take the flashlight with him - doesnt make sense.

I honestly dont think the intruder just simply forgot to take to flashlight with him when he went to the trouble of taking the duct tape. Also the flashlight would have priority number one since it would aid him in escaping during the dead of night.

The biggest red flags in the case is the total lack of logic...nothing makes any sense, unless of course you on the RDI team

Charlie,
The one constant factor in this case is that nobody has offered any convincing evidence to show an intruder was ever in the Ramsey household.

Usually only guilty people wipe stuff clean, they dont want to be linked with the object.

If the flashlight was used to whack JonBenet on the head, and since the injury was not visible, then it may have been removed from the wine-cellar area e.g. it may have been left lying on the floor next to the wooden shards.

That is it served no useful purpose in the staging, possibly reducing its effectiveness as the flashlight was a Ramsey possession, but it was meant to be an intruder who killed JonBenet.

So the person who placed the flashlight in the kitchen was taking no risks, so wiped the flashlight case and batteries clean. If those batteries are new in, then either they were changed in the course of killing JonBenet or prior to her death?


.

 

[BBB167893]

"Did JB bleed from the vaginal abuse?"

In my weaker moments, I wonder if that was the case.