Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

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We know no roast was found. But Dr. Lee says "ham" was found. Ham decomposes, decomposing ham would host maggots. (I am of the opinion that the amount of ham he found must have been miniscule since I would HOPE LE would have collected all evidence from the trunk. But posters from that area assure me that LE could well have left evidence behind and is indeed KNOWN to leave evidence behind. If that is true, perhaps the amount of ham was more significant. We do know that whatever "new evidence" Dr. Lee found was turned over to LE, so we will perhaps one day learn "for real" what it consists of.)

Bold by me...

I'm sure that a fresh ham (as in raw) would result in maggots during decomposition. Most ham purchased in the stores is smoked, as in fully cooked. I'm not sure it would produce the same results.

Lee might be barking up a dead hog's backside here. (Pun intended)
 
Yep, that's exactly right. I used ONE OF Dr. Vass's examples of things that could not be ruled out. Naturally, since I was posting from the benefit of doubt position, I cherry-picked which one was chosen........the one that would result in maggots of course!

We know no roast was found. But Dr. Lee says "ham" was found. Ham decomposes, decomposing ham would host maggots. (I am of the opinion that the amount of ham he found must have been miniscule since I would HOPE LE would have collected all evidence from the trunk. But posters from that area assure me that LE could well have left evidence behind and is indeed KNOWN to leave evidence behind. If that is true, perhaps the amount of ham was more significant. We do know that whatever "new evidence" Dr. Lee found was turned over to LE, so we will perhaps one day learn "for real" what it consists of.)

Exactly !! IMO.....I kinda got the feeling Dr. Lee was BS-ing a little when he was on NG....we need to ask AL...or blow up the pic in the docs of the contents of the bag on a wall...LOL
 
I know.....it's not going to be a pretty picture when CA finally hears it. But even with evidence right in front of her...more than likely she's going to deny that it's Caylee. CA is living in her own little world right now, and that world she's in is really really fragile. This trial is probably going to push her over the edge, and even though it's CA....it makes me sad, especially when her daughter could have put an end to this a long time ago.
Losing a loved one is never easy, no matter what the circumstances are. I truly feel for this woman for her loss. But, she has a son she needs to be there for as well. Wrapping herself in denial will only hurt her and those who love her. Whatever will be with Casey will be. I've sat in many a "support" session and heard tragedies that left me numb and wondering how are these people living through this nightmare? But, we were all there for each other and that in itself was comforting. Life goes on. But, you need to deal with the pain of the loss first. I wholeheartedly recommend her seeking one of these "grief" support groups. The love that's there is inspiring and healing.
 
Bold by me...

I'm sure that a fresh ham (as in raw) would result in maggots during decomposition. Most ham purchased in the stores is smoked, as in fully cooked. I'm not sure it would produce the same results.

Lee might be barking up a dead hog's backside here. (Pun intended)

LOL LOL.....ITA....Lee's just tryin to earn his $$. And, I'm not any sort of maggot expert, but I also was wondering about the smoking/NaCl content of ham and maggots.....

They DID say on pg 2287, that when they dumped the bag out, some flies and small maggots were in there, too.
 
I think that report is referring to the air tests, and saying the compounds identified in the air could have come from those things (roast beef) I don't think it is stating those things were in fact in the car, but that those items might cause the same results of the air sample tests, had they been there. I hope that makes sense, I dont type as fast as I think.:crazy:
Where does it say that ANY of these items were in teh trunk, tho. I can't find it stated anywhere in the docs. And the meats used on pizza are usually loaded with preservatives and cooked, not raw. Your statment makes sense, but I want some EVIDENCE that any of those items were actually in the bag or in the trunk - you seem to assume that they are.
 
If there were maggots then a milkshake test was done. We haven't seen it, so they must be saving it for the next document dump.
 
Where does it say that ANY of these items were in teh trunk, tho. I can't find it stated anywhere in the docs. And the meats used on pizza are usually loaded with preservatives and cooked, not raw. Your statment makes sense, but I want some EVIDENCE that any of those items were actually in the bag or in the trunk - you seem to assume that they are.


If you go up to Post 255 by kgeaux (thanks for adding that), the bottom blue box is from one of the reports which states that you basically CAN NOT rule out any of the items listed as a source of the identified compounds. My all time FAVORITE thing in the whole report, is the "animal carcass (had to be wrapped to produce anaerobic compounds)" LOL LOL. I can just see Casey wrapping up the dead squirrel in Saran Wrap....LOL

Also...if you go to Doc 1...pg 2287...it says some "food items" were dumped from the bag....flies, small maggots, too.
 
Bold by me...

I'm sure that a fresh ham (as in raw) would result in maggots during decomposition. Most ham purchased in the stores is smoked, as in fully cooked. I'm not sure it would produce the same results.

Lee might be barking up a dead hog's backside here. (Pun intended)
FWIW, IMO the maggots will be a key factor in this case.

As for the ham, yes, smoked, fully cooked and full of salt. Ham would be more likely to dehydrate and turn into "cardboard" just like the pizza because of the salt content. I just don't think that the flies / maggots would feast on ham. JMHO.
 
While these are very preliminary results, the results at this point appear to be consistent with a decompositional event having occured in the trunk of the car. This does not rule out the possibility that an animal carcass (had to be wrapped to produce anaerobic compounds), rotting meat, paint, varnish, cleaners, degreasers, or garbage was transported in the trunk at some time that may have contributed to the observed chemical compounds. Arapol Vass, Ph.D.,Research Scientist/Forensic Anthropologist

Whether or not any of these things were found in the trunk when the car was picked up isn't important. What Dr. Vass is stating is that any of these things transported in the trunk at some time may have contributed to the observed chemical compounds.
 
Whether or not any of these things were found in the trunk when the car was picked up isn't important. What Dr. Vass is stating is that any of these things transported in the trunk at some time may have contributed to the observed chemical compounds.


HOPEFULLY.....where it says "very preliminary" results it means there's more solid results to come...like his testing might have been just "quick and dirty" to verify there was, in fact, the possibility of decomposition of some kind.
 
Whether or not any of these things were found in the trunk when the car was picked up isn't important. What Dr. Vass is stating is that any of these things transported in the trunk at some time may have contributed to the observed chemical compounds.


AND....I think we can rule out the wrapped up animal carcass....LOL. I STILL love that one.

BUT....maybe an animal killed for sport and wrapped up ?? Ah, crap, i need to stop thinking...LOL
 
I don't think it is true that bottle flies or other will only lay their eggs in carcasses. I've seen maggots all over the farm, in manure, in the compost pile, common garbage. All they need is warmth, moisture and something that rots.

http://www.idph.state.il.us/envhealth/pcfilthflies.htm "House Fly (Musca domestica)

The common house fly is a dull gray fly, ¼-inch long with four dark stripes on the middle section (thorax) of its body. House flies typically lay eggs on animal feces and garbage. White, legless maggots (the larval stage) hatch from the eggs and grow to about ½ inch. When fully grown, maggots crawl away from their food source to undergo the pupal stage. They form a dark brown cocoon, known as a puparium, and later emerge as adult house flies that can fly one or two miles in search of suitable egg-laying sites.

Blow Flies (Calliphoridae spp.)

Blow flies are so-called because the larvae develop inside the bodies of dead animals, causing the carrion to have a bloated appearance. They also are attracted to garbage. Blow flies are about the size of house flies or slightly larger. They have been called “bottle flies” because their shiny blue and green color resemble colored glass bottles, though some species are shiny black or bronze. Large numbers of these flies indoors usually indicates the presence of a dead animal such as a mouse or bird inside the structure.

Flesh Flies (Sarcophagidae spp.)

Appropriately named, flesh flies usually seek carrion or scraps of meat on which to lay their eggs. Like house flies, adult flesh flies are dark-colored (gray or black). Common species have three dark stripes on the thorax. They are slightly larger than house flies and have a checkerboard pattern on the abdomen."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowflies
Adult blow-flies are occasional pollinators, being attracted to flowers with a strong odor resembling rotting meat, such as the American pawpaw or Dead Horse Arum. There is little doubt that these flies utilize nectar as a source of carbohydrates to fuel flight..
Larvae of most species are scavengers of carrion and dung and most likely constitute the majority of the maggots found in such material, although it is not uncommon for them to be found in close associate with other dipterous larvae from the families Sarcophagidae, Muscidae, and many other acalyptrate muscoid flies.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/DK7568.html
Blow flies... lay eggs on garbage containing meat scraps, as well as on dead animals and animal wounds. They may also deposit eggs onto feces-caked hair or wool on pets and other domestic animals.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-blowfly.html
...The eggs are laid on the material that serves as food for the larvae, e.g., decaying flesh and other organic matter. ...

http://lancaster.unl.edu/pest/resources/blowflies.shtml
...Bottle or blow flies lay eggs in decomposing organic matter, like garbage, animal manure, decaying vegetables, grass clippings and poorly managed compost piles. These flies are important in nature in the decay process of animal carcasses and are usually the first insects to arrive—within hours or even minutes—after an animal dies...

So it seems that they aren't too picky.
 
Hi all

I'm new to this forum so this is my first post. :) I am British but came across this case by chance whilst following US news items about your recent election.

I have now read just about all of the available evidence and am still no further forward in making any sense of this extraordinary case. There are so many things that just don't add up, IMO, and I keep swinging from one conclusion to another! :crosseyed:

Anyway, about the maggots.......I don't recall reading any report that there were any maggots found other than those inside the bag, and these were apparently found along with small flies and at least some food items. Of course you may have all sorts of species of fly in the US that we don't see in the UK, but we do have flies that will lay eggs on cooked meat, so I am wondering if the maggots/flies found were not the 'flesh eating' type (yuk!:sick:) but the 'dump your eggs anywhere suitable' type. I just find it odd if it's correct that the maggots where only in the bag.

Has anyone actually seen any official statements about tests being done on these maggots?
 
A very pregnant fly, trapped in a sealed container will still lay her eggs - right? Even if her only choice is the remnants of cooked foods - right?


What "other" insects were found in the trunk? The term "other insects" was mentioned by Dr. Lee. This term may have been used in one of the LE reports because I know I have seen two references to it. Does anyone know what kind of "other" insects there were and what kind should we expect to find on a decomposing human body?

No one has mentioned the other kind(s) of insects; they may not be of any relevance or they may be of particular import to the State's case.
 
Where does it say that ANY of these items were in teh trunk, tho. I can't find it stated anywhere in the docs. And the meats used on pizza are usually loaded with preservatives and cooked, not raw. Your statment makes sense, but I want some EVIDENCE that any of those items were actually in the bag or in the trunk - you seem to assume that they are.


Glad you mentioned preservatives....processing and preservatives are used to extend foods shelf life - meaning it would take longer to "go bad". The heat involved in processing would almost assure no infestation to begin with. This would probably keep the "boxed" food less likely to rot and attract maggots. "Unprocessed" food....fruit, etc, on the other hand, would be a breeding ground for maggots, right ?? Although, in my wonderful searches about maggots - never thought I'd read about maggots... LOL - I don't know the maggots name, but it had said that a maggot that particularly likes human decomp, would go to another source if it had to for food....????
 
AND....I think we can rule out the wrapped up animal carcass....LOL. I STILL love that one.

BUT....maybe an animal killed for sport and wrapped up ?? Ah, crap, i need to stop thinking...LOL

I know, my head is spinning! :eek:

The paragraph stating animal carcass, rotting meat, etc., was from Preliminary report #1. The corresponding paragraph from Preliminary report #2 states: These results do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Both paragraphs are pretty much the same thing, but the latest (Preliminary report #2) paragraph seems in its wording to be making a slightly tighter conclusion than the first did, by using the words remote and unusual variety.

What makes it all confusing is that Preliminary report #2 was actually released in the first document dump, the first forensics report that we read, and report #1 came out in the second dump.
 
Hi all

I'm new to this forum so this is my first post. :) I am British but came across this case by chance whilst following US news items about your recent election.

I have now read just about all of the available evidence and am still no further forward in making any sense of this extraordinary case. There are so many things that just don't add up, IMO, and I keep swinging from one conclusion to another! :crosseyed:

Anyway, about the maggots.......I don't recall reading any report that there were any maggots found other than those inside the bag, and these were apparently found along with small flies and at least some food items. Of course you may have all sorts of species of fly in the US that we don't see in the UK, but we do have flies that will lay eggs on cooked meat, so I am wondering if the maggots/flies found were not the 'flesh eating' type (yuk!:sick:) but the 'dump your eggs anywhere suitable' type. I just find it odd if it's correct that the maggots where only in the bag.

Has anyone actually seen any official statements about tests being done on these maggots?
Welcome Devon!

No, nothing has been released about any testing regarding the maggots (yet!).
 
I know, my head is spinning! :eek:

The paragraph stating animal carcass, rotting meat, etc., was from Preliminary report #1. The corresponding paragraph from Preliminary report #2 states: These results do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present in the trunk at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature.

Both paragraphs are pretty much the same thing, but the latest (Preliminary report #2) paragraph seems in its wording to be making a slightly tighter conclusion than the first did, by using the words remote and unusual variety.

What makes it all confusing is that Preliminary report #2 was actually released in the first document dump, the first forensics report that we read, and report #1 came out in the second dump.
I don't remember the reversal of docs. I didn't think it was pointed out that there was no pizza in the first doc.
 
FWIW, IMO the maggots will be a key factor in this case.

As for the ham, yes, smoked, fully cooked and full of salt. Ham would be more likely to dehydrate and turn into "cardboard" just like the pizza because of the salt content. I just don't think that the flies / maggots would feast on ham. JMHO.

I think Lee was BSing about the ham. I imagine there will be a lot of that before it is over.

As for all the % and things .............they are just grasping at straws. They have already and will prove in court Caylee is dead and that is all that matters in this murder case.
 
I don't think it is true that bottle flies or other will only lay their eggs in carcasses. I've seen maggots all over the farm, in manure, in the compost pile, common garbage. All they need is warmth, moisture and something that rots.

So it seems that they aren't too picky.

It is my understanding from the research at U.T. they are more picky than people realize, but the key factor in this one will be the DNA in the maggots.

They can not only get the DNA of Caylee but any drugs which were in her system at the time of her death.
 
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