France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by Drella, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your post, good suggestions.

    I agree that the escape route of the killer would be my choice of the most important aspect for investigation. IMO guessing at and following potential motives, in these kinds of cases, leads the investigation astray. For eg I was reading recently about the Sharon Tate murders, investigators ignored a gun that was found on a nearby property, they were convinced the murders were related to drug use and drug gangs.

    It struck me as extremely odd the motorcyclist was only tracked down 2 or 3 years later, and then ruled out. Why didn't he contact police earlier? How could it have possibly taken that long to find him, why were they so positive he wasn't involved?? Was he the only motorcyclist? Unfortunately we have no answers.
     


  2. Muy Curioso

    Muy Curioso Active Member

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    1) As noted in this and other forums at some stage, there appeared to be damage to the roof/bonnet of the victim's car. I don't recall if it has been ascertained if that damage was relevant or otherwise (i.e. damaged roof cycle rack).

    Non relevant, I think.


    2) The immediate area around the crime location is as I understand it quite difficult terrain, but how wide an area would you have initiated a through forensic search? In similar crimes it is apparent that weapons are sometimes disposed of quite near to the crime if only to avoid being found in possession when the emergency services arrived, which I assume the killer would think would be pretty quick.

    I think the killer left with the gun. The search area was very short, as we can see in the photos. Detectives allowed the press enter in the crime scene too soon.


    3) Knowing now (according to the French authorities) that the motorcyclist seen by the forestry workers has now been identified and ruled out as a suspect, can we rule any subsequent sightings of a motorcyclist (i.e. WBM's interview from Panorama of October 2013) as irrelevant? In this interview WBM seemed quite clear that a motorcycle passed him going back down the hill - his timeline was 15.45 according to Panorama but it would be interesting to know at what point of the hill this was, so that it could established if this was the Forestry Worker's innocent motorcyclist or otherwise.

    There are two different motorcycles. One seen by the forestry workers about 3 pm or shortly before. The other seen by Martin between 3 to 5 minutes before arriving at the crime scene, about 3:35 p.m. I think the assassin was on this second motorcycle.

    4) If we were to believe the origins of the crime related to SM (I'm not saying that I do), once again given WBM's interview, he mentions one vehicle passing him on the way up the hill going in the same direction, which he believed to be the victim's car, and nothing else apart from SM himself. I understand the margin of error with eyewitness testimony but he struck me a quite a lucid, intelligent man and the interview was only just over a year after the events. This puts the killer already there and waiting for, well, anyone if we go down the route of the random killer. That doesn't sit well with me and perhaps it is just human nature to not be able to believe that there are the odd few out there who could do something so vile for no apparent reason.

    I think that's exactly what happened. Pure evil.


    Now for pure speculation, if we are to accept that the motorcyclist sighting by WBM related to the same innocent motorcyclist spoken to by the Forestry Workers, how did the killer get there and get away. Or were there 2 motorcyclists, one being the killer and the other an innocent man? Quite a coincidence if that was the case. That leaves one person not telling the truth. Just my opinion.


    3:35 p.m. motorcycle rider has not been identified.

    As you can see I have nothing new to offer, perhaps I'm just recycling the same confusing/conflicting pieces of information, but I would appreciate your thoughts.

    Simon


    No experiencie, but much interest in the case. If I am right about the killer, he had to explore the area shortly before the crime. The day before, three days, one week, .... Maybe a tourist saw someone doing something weird, or some odd stuff.

    The web is in Spanish, but you can try with the automatic translator on the top right. Luck.

    http://www.losguantesdesimpson.com
     
  3. Moosey

    Moosey New Member

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    Thanks to both Muy Curioso and Satchie for your replies.

    I've listened to WBM's 2013 Panorama interview quite a few times now, and one thing that stands out to me is that he states the very first thing that he saw near the scene, from a distance, is SM's bicycle lying in the middle of the road. This must establish to a high level of certainty that SM stumbled into the shooting already in progress (or complete). I say this mainly because I don't believe that he would have just dumped his circa £4000 bike in the middle of the road to go and have a pleasant chat with a tourist who happened to be parked in the layby.

    Similarly, if the Al-Hilli's had approached the layby area and found a bike in the middle of the road, they wouldn't have been able to, or wanted to, drive around it?

    Again, I have no theories as to the motivation behind any of the murders, but looking at evidence (albeit eyewitness) it is clear that the perpetrator began by shooting at the Al-Hilli's and very shortly after at SM when he came on to the scene.

    It is easy to see therefore why there has been more focus on the original target (if it was accepted that it was not a deranged random killer) being the Al-Hilli's and the investigation itself can then spring out in possibly all the wrong directions. After all, if the theory of SM being the actual target was true, would the perpetrator have risked first of all wasting time (and ammunition!), taking out an unknown group just to get at one person? I would imagine that this has led to the French investigating authorities to surmise that it was a random, perhaps local, murder.

    EVIDENCE, Facts, surely are the key to solving a case like this and as several commentators and authors (thanks for the link to Simpson Gloves) have observed, much of this was lost in the early stages to theories, almost finger-pointing.

    I would welcome any thoughts on the above.

    Simon
     
  4. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    BBM


    The cyclist was shot when he was on his bike - as far as I am aware it hasn't been made public where the bullets hit his body, only that there were many.

    The cyclist gets shot and falls off his bike. The father gets shot too, and one person in the car. When Al-Hilli tries to turn the car, that car drags the cyclist. The cyclist ends up in front of the car (that got stuck in the sand.)

    So even if it may appear that the cyclist left his bike on the road, this was not the case.

    Map here:
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...int-l-ramifications-2&p=13564745#post13564745

    The shooting was never completed, because the shooter ran out of bullets. The eldest daughter was outside the car and survived. He hit her with the gun because he had no bullets left.

    Everything points to the presence of both the cyclist and the Al-Hilli family when the shooter started to fire his gun.

    The Al-Hilli family likely arrived shortly before the cyclist. The big question is: where did the shooter come from? (and where did he go to?) and was he aware that the car was parked there?
     
  5. Moosey

    Moosey New Member

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    Thanks for your reply ZaZara. I have a few questions.

    The cyclist was shot when he was on his bike - as far as I am aware it hasn't been made public where the bullets hit his body, only that there were many.

    You say that is has not been made public where the bullets hit the body. Where does it state that the cyclist was on his bike?

    The cyclist gets shot and falls off his bike. The father gets shot too, and one person in the car. When Al-Hilli tries to turn the car, that car drags the cyclist. The cyclist ends up in front of the car (that got stuck in the sand.)

    As above. Also, can you tell me what you mean by the father gets shot too and one person in the car? Who was the one person? I understand re the cyclist getting stuck in front of the car.

    So even if it may appear that the cyclist left his bike on the road, this was not the case.

    Where is this information from?

    Everything points to the presence of both the cyclist and the Al-Hilli family when the shooter started to fire his gun.

    What is Everything?

    I understand re the Al-Hill family arriving before, but your words show that I have missed something. Where is all the information re who was shot, when and where?

    Thanks

    Simon
     
  6. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    BBM


    Try the link I provided and the picture.
     
  7. jellybeanz

    jellybeanz Well-Known Member

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    I always thought the RAF guy was dodgy. He's first on scene, yet they don't pursue him as a POI? He seemed to be beyond reproach due to his military career.

    I still think these murders were carried out by one of the alphabet agencies and RAF guy was involved either as a scout or possibly even the shooter.

    MOO
     
  8. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    In addition to the map in ZaZara's last post, which was, hopefully, derived from police forensic evidence, there's an image from a German forum I found useful, hope this link works. https://www.google.ca/search?q=vier...sqXWAhUBFWMKHR6mCAgQwg4IIigA&biw=768&bih=1024

    I think the cyclist didn't dismount, but would be likely to keep cycling as the 'road' kept going as a path, and there was nothing to see in the parking lot.

    So my observations are, a) It's a very small parking area b) in order to reverse, the car would have come part way onto the road c) the cyclist would likely have fallen away from the shooter, so would be on the parking lot side of the bicycle. So the cyclist being dragged makes sense.

    The map link states the shooter was "above" ie, above the right hand side of the road as you arrive. It's frustrating I can't find anything showing the topography, viewpoints, access for that area.

    I also wonder, if the shooter had a vehicle, where would it have been? Not likely left exposed in the parking lot. A motorcycle could have been pulled off the side of the road. Or, they could have parked elsewhere and walked on a trail.
     
  9. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    Possible, but then why would he be the one who sought help, and not just get away/hide? And why , after trying to kill the girl by beating her over the head, would he have saved her? She would possibly have known him as her attacker and shown fear/run away/identified him.
     
  10. Muy Curioso

    Muy Curioso Active Member

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    What is Everything?

    I understand re the Al-Hill family arriving before, but your words show that I have missed something. Where is all the information re who was shot, when and where?

    Thanks

    Simon


    https://www.gq.com/story/alps-murder-chevaline-solving-crime

    In the book The perfect crime, by Tom Parry.

    And reading a lot of press reports. There is conflicting information, but with a little effort you can separate the good from the bad.
     
  11. Muy Curioso

    Muy Curioso Active Member

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    I hope this helps:

    Martinet2.jpg

    Can you see the road above the parking?
     
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  12. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    @ Satchie: You can follow the road from Chevaline on google maps with images, great part of the Combe d'Ire has been registered.

    Brett Martin's description of his cycle trip is a good starting point. --- sorry, can't find that now.

    Here's a video of the spot, gives you a good view of the place.

    https://youtu.be/KhTi9bgC-VU
     
  13. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Google streetview doesn't take me far along that road, perhaps it's my tablet.

    But I'm referring to the specific location where the shooter was standing when he started shooting. I think forensics could probably determine that location from the angle of the bullets, and perhaps the ground there being disturbed. This link you posted http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/infog...e-et-d-une-grande-brutalite_1782079_3224.html says "15:30, the solo shooter positioned above the parking lot", and shows him on the other side of the road, somewhere near the sign stopping cars from proceeding. I was wondering how high he was, how he got there, what he would have seen, how easy it would be to run down to the cyclist and car, and where he'd stashed his vehicle.

    I suppose what is interesting is he seems to have started out as a hidden sniper lurking above, who just started by taking potshots at people to create chaos, and then came out of hiding because he wanted to kill the victims close up. It feels to me a kind of 'lone psycho' thing to do, rather than a professional hit. I think a professional would stay on his motorcycle or in his car, and wait until the coast was clear to attack his target up close. There would be two bullets to the head or heart, but not this inefficient shooting from above that just created panic and mayhem.
     
  14. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    If he was standing near the stopping sign, he must have seen everything and everyone IMHO. I used to think that he had been hiding in the bushes on the other side of the road - that is next to impossible with the river nearby. There is hardly any ground to stand on, one step backwards and he would have fallen into the ravine.

    The stopping sign also explains whe the Al-Hilli family stopped there.

    BTW the shooter was not posiotioned 'above' the parking lot. That is one of those things that become muddled in translation. A better translation would be:

    Only one killer is positioned upstream from the parking lot. At the top side of the parking lot, but the road is not very steep there and this does not indicate an alleged height of the person nor that he was standing on a rock or similar.

    He possibly escaped through the woods in the back of the parking lot to the road on the other side nearby.
     
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  15. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, that's what I was wondering, would he have been able to lurk, hidden. It seems not, because there's a stream. Here's an image showing some trees by the stop sign, https://goo.gl/images/au86u1. And another showing how anyone by the sign would be seemingly in view to anyone approaching https://goo.gl/images/5wAvq8. So to me, it doesn't apoear as an ideal location if someone had a long-held fantasy of committing the perfect crime. It's a bit vulnerable: someone else could have driven in, the car could've got away. I think the location was okay, but there was likely a murderous anger on that particular afternoon, and the person being already in that area.

    I wonder if forensics could detect signs of a car or motorcyle there, part way off the road. Or certainly, that other road being so close seems an obvious place to park, though hard to turn around a car. All these possibilities do point to a motorcycle. It strikes me as inconsistent someone would commit all this brutality, and then pass the lone cyclist Martin without threatening him at all. Perhaps the motorcycle slowed because he wanted to stop and kill Martin too, but decided against it because he was out of ammo and was focussed on getting away.

    I think the cyclist was shot first because he was coming fairly fast towards the shooter, he would have ridden past in a few moments. He had to be knocked off his bike to prevent his escape. Also, the driver was outside his car, so seemingly unable to escape. I think the shooter might have waited for them all to get out, but then the cyclist came along, so he went ahead with the attack.

    Assuming a lone psycho, what was it about that location, that moment, that he chose to start shooting? Even random killers aren't completely random, they're predators who choose the location and victims for a reason. Especially if they intend to get away with it and only do it once.

    He must have wanted to shoot people in a car, because he chose a parking lot. Was it a calculated version of road rage, had he become fed up with drivers and cyclists interfering with 'his' road? Or become annoyed with Al Hilli's driving in particular, or hated British tourists (foreign license plate) and drove ahead to lie in wait and get revenge?

    Another idea I had is it could have been a hiker who had developed hatred for people who came to that location, who invaded the person's 'land'. I don't think he hated tourists, the cyclist was local, most of the users were local. And why didn't he shoot the forest workers, if he wanted to keep it for himself? So that scenario seems less likely to me, somehow.
     
  16. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    When I read back some of the reports, I found the name of the parking lot. I hadn't paid attention to that before, but if you google parking Martinets Chevaline you find that a lot of randonnées or hikes start there.

    So this isn't just another parking bay. This place has history and significance. Plus a stopping sign.

    IMHO it is possible that while the victims were random, the location was not.
     
  17. Ellmau

    Ellmau Well-Known Member

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  18. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    IMHO that is unlikely. He slipped in the snow on his way down and fell off a cliff. If a third party had been involved, their tracks would show in the snow.

    Lots of people hike in that region. Lots of cars are parked on that same spot. No other shootings have been reported.

    Father Al-Hilli let his daughter choose what to do that afternoon: go shopping or to the mountains. She chose the mountains. Had they gone shopping, we would never have heard of them.
    If the French cyclist had stopped to take the call of his ex-wife, the British cyclist Brett Martin would have overtaken him. In that case we might perhaps be wondering about the colourful past of mr Martin. I'm pretty sure this idea has occurred to mr Martin too.

    On the other hand it seems very likely that the shooter knows the region well, he may have been there more often and it is a distinct possibilty that he escaped on foot through the woods. One might meet him on a trail and not know he is the one.

    :scared:
     
  19. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I don't think so, it says he fell on a steep, icy section of a mountain, much higher up than Chevaline. Unfortunately, that's not an unusual accident for keen solo hikers out so early in the season.

    http://www.francesoir.fr/quanetin-h...en-haute-savoie-apres-une-chute-dune-centaine
     
  20. curiosityscat

    curiosityscat Member

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    Wondering if this new suspected Serial Killer (below), may be the suspect/culprit in their case??
    Annecy is only like 45 miles from Chambrey where he seems to have been operating for ?? (unknown currently),he is now a suspect in at least 2 local Chambray killings since April 2017, so far....Would be curious if LE has found a similar pistol to that used in these Alps Killings during any of their searches?? (Not sure this is the right forum to post this, so pardon me if it isn't)

    NEWS STORY FOR FRANCE FROM LOCAL PAPER:
    https://www.thelocal.fr/20171220/murder-case-in-french-alps-sparks-serial-killer-fears
     

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