France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by Drella, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. mrtnira

    mrtnira Well-Known Member

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    A car not being seen does not mean one did not exist.

    How often do people not notice the obvious? Or, if someone turns their back for a few moments, do we have universal awareness? No. The absence of a reported vehicle does not mean one did not exist.

    If they were on foot, who knows? But to discount a thing because it was not observed brings into question the condition of the event relative to the observers. If someone is in a guard tower with a note pad, that is one level of awareness; if someone is just working around the house and they do not see something, that is at a lower-level of awareness. The condition of awareness at the time of an event is a factor in eye witness reporting.
     


  2. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    The French investigated you know. A very thorough investigation. They found no signs of a road rage.

    If there was another car, it did not go down the road, else it would have been seen by the British cyclist.
    There were no indications of a second car in the parking spot at the time of the attack.
    The al-Hilli car could not have moved the way it did if there had been.

    Video of the location shows that in case of road rage, no gun is needed, simply push the other car into the stream below.

     
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  3. dalsglen

    dalsglen Well-Known Member

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    a road rager following them that day makes sense to me, I've seen my dad forget and drive on the wrong side a couple times in Europe causing a few peed off people. But then, to shoot up the whole car inhabitants, nah.

    some random road rager following the next day I would doubt it and I hold a grudge!

    By foot, how far would that be to nearest town?
     
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  4. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    No one was following them. The British cyclist would have seen that car and he didn't. French LE reconstructed the journey of the Al-Hilli's from the UK to the camping near Annecy, they viewed all possible CCTV from gas stations etc and found no one who was follwing them on that journey either.

    upload_2021-1-8_23-21-5.png

    A perp on foot could pass through the woods if he knew the way and easily reach another rural road. If he had a bike there, he could be gone to the north and / or to the south. Or he might have hiked to his car, his home, the bus stop, anywhere.

    The two surviving daughters were questioned again last October. I wonder what came of it. A description of the clothing could be a very good indication.
     
  5. SuziQ

    SuziQ Well-Known Member

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  6. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    Haute-Savoie – Tuerie de Chevaline: les enquêteurs examinent une nouvelle piste

    Investigators trying to solve the mystery of the quadruple homicide at the Combe d'Ire, above Chevaline, in Haute-Savoie, are looking into new avenues. It was "Le Canard enchaîné" which revealed this in its 24 February edition, an information which was picked up by several French media.

    This new lead was prompted by the dismantling, last summer in Paris, of a Freemason lodge whose members, former officials of the French secret service or former policemen, were preparing to commit an assassination. A search of the home of one of the protagonists uncovered ammunition for the same type of weapon used in the Chevaline killing.

    The Annecy prosecutor, quoted by "L'Essor Savoyard", confirmed that the new lead was being checked. However, she also points out that this is not the first time in this investigation that this type of weapon has been identified, but without shedding any light on the mystery.

    BBM


    So LE found the same type of ammo, but not the gun:

    ammunition which would fit the Luger P06 pistol used in the Alps murders was found at the home of a man arrested over the failed attempt to kill corporate coach and hypnosis expert Marie-Hélène Dini, 55, near Paris.



    Plot to kill hypnotist linked to murder of Brit family in Alps as ammo found

    In 2013, Saad’s older brother Zaid was arrested by Surrey Police on suspicion of ordering his brother’s murder, but was released without charge.

    He welcomed the latest development in the case.

    He said: “I think this is plausible.


    "I have always believed [the cyclist] Sylvain Mollier was the target, and it was an assassination that went badly wrong.


    "I think there is no other explanation.

    "I always believed there was a cover-up.”


    BBM
     
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  7. mrtnira

    mrtnira Well-Known Member

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    This is a very interesting story. Reading about it here in Websleuths prompted further reading in European publications to gather some depth on this. There is no obvious answer right now (just to state the obvious). The juncture of the British family with former Iraqi government connections, an unemployed nuclear engineer, and a killer who demonstrates potential "special forces" training by the method of killing, all points to intrigue and not simple crime. A cover-up makes sense.
     
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  8. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    That was all investigated and it led to nothing.

    The method of killing was clumsy and so was the weapon. Your alleged killer with potential 'special forces training' ran out of bullets and had to whip the eldest girl with his gun. He entirely missed the presence of the second girl.

    The 'unemployed nuclear engineer' was a welder in a workshop of a subsidiary. He had little if anything to do with the nuclear industry itself.
     
  9. mrtnira

    mrtnira Well-Known Member

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    ZaZara, what is your estimate of the situation?
     
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  10. Snoopster

    Snoopster Well-Known Member

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    True that none of this amounted to much, and that sensational teases, were likely just sensational teases, but....what if there was actually something behind even one of these theories?
    None of us are any closer to an explanation, yet there IS a cause of this massacre. But what is it??
     
  11. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    That it was a very strange place for a massacre, since the al-Hilli family hadn't planned to be there, and the cyclist might or might not have gone there. And why murder an entire family if the cyclist was the target? Why not wait for a better opportunity?
    I am leaning very much towards a local perp, someone who acted on impulse? anger? lay in waiting? (but where and how?) (and why?) He ran out of bullets, that would make him neither very prepared nor a professional.

    IMO find the weapon and you've got your man - we do know it is a man thanks to the description of the daughter.

    I hope both families will find closure.
     
  12. mrtnira

    mrtnira Well-Known Member

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    Interesting assessment. You may be correct. Someone possessed of violence acts out by opportunity. The mix of victims creates analytical confusion. There is no resolution until evidence is discovered later by chance.
     
  13. Ched

    Ched Well-Known Member

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  14. Officer Dibble

    Officer Dibble Well-Known Member

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  15. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    This is what the French say, perhaps a tad less dramatic than the DM suggests:


    Énigme de la tuerie de Chevaline : les principales pistes connues



    This Thursday 30 September and until 1 October, the gendarmes of Haute-Savoie will be combing the area around Chevaline where 4 people were shot dead in 2012. In this ongoing investigation, the operation is intended to "check if anyone has missed anything."

    Towards the end of a cold case? On Wednesday 29 September, H20 radio revealed that the crime scene of the Chevaline (Haute-Savoie) massacre, which occurred in 2012, will be frozen this Thursday 30 September, until 1 October. Access to the area of 8 kilometres in diameter is prohibited to the public. Line Bonnet-Mathis, public prosecutor in Annecy, warned our colleagues: "This is a classic part of an investigation. There is no new development or new event in this case. It is a " visit to the crime scene." The gendarmes' mission is to "check if someone has missed something."


    BBM



    Apparently, Line Bonnet-Mathis is a new Public Prosecutor on this case. A fresh view on the case may lead to new leads! (In another case that I follow here on WS, the new prosecutor started out doing what still had to be done, and found the remains of a missing boy within the year ~after five or six years. )
    Back to basics is a good start because the Alps murder case has gone all over the world without getting anywhere near a resolution.
     
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  16. Officer Dibble

    Officer Dibble Well-Known Member

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    Okay thanks. So as well as combing the area for old evidence they will likely get someone to cycle from A to scene of crime and see if its possible to do that in the time given perhaps? As well as other things.
     
  17. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    If I remember well, the cycle times were checked, also the fact that it was impossible to hear the shots from the point where Brett Martin was when the shots were fired. When I read the DM, I immediately thought of him but next I realized that his statements were checked over and over again at the time.
     
  18. Snoopster

    Snoopster Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully this new prosecutor can make further progress on this case. I just worry that there are a lot of political barriers that have been erected as someone doesn't want the case solved.
     
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  19. joe jones

    joe jones Well-Known Member

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    Good to see it is continuing to be investigated, I often think of the surviving victims and hope they are well.
     
  20. Snoopster

    Snoopster Well-Known Member

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    keeping my fingers crossed.
    Please let the culprits of this murder come to justice!

    I have no idea whether Saad brought this upon himself, but I'd be surprised if his wife and/or MIL did. Those young children must have been terrorized.
     
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