GA: Deborah (Debbie) Collier 10 Sept 2022 autopsy implies foul play

[Ontario Mom]

I followed this case very, very closely. Nothing about this woman's death looked like suicide to me, and I've followed A LOT of suicide cases. Some things lined up, but others definitely did not. I think a lot of people feel the same about this case. The very fact that the autopsy implies foul play doesn't make it any easier to come down on either side.

It's all just terribly sad for those who loved her.

jmo

 

[Cedars]

I followed this case very, very closely. Nothing about this woman's death looked like suicide to me, and I've followed A LOT of suicide cases. Some things lined up, but others definitely did not.

Funny, the only things I knew for certain were the Venmo gift/message (confusing) and the footage of her driving and shopping, during which she sent the Venmo. I spent days racking my brains, trying to figure out how her actual, visible behaviou could possibly be associated with foul play. I spent a lot of time on Gray Hughes youtube, as he also racked his brains. It just didn't make sense. Whereas both pieces of evidence make sense under a suicide scenario.

I don't know what other actual evidence (aside from unsubstantiated rumour and speculation), that the public ever had...

JMO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I, too, do not know enough about what has not been reported to reason that it was suicide.

It would also be true then, that you couldn't possibly have information to claim it was foul play. It's hard to prove a negative but a complete lack of evidence of anyone else being involved, leaves it with the victim acting of her own free will. Accusing a "suspect" before the evidence has even shown there is a crime was a terrible thing to do.
There was no grey area when it came to LE tracking her movements that day and finding her to be alone and not acting under duress or force.
This quote is often repeated by many in LE, false arrests and prosecutions are an unfortunate part of our history.

It is a capital mistake to theorize in advance of the facts, insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. ~Sherlock Holmes~

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

It would also be true then, that you couldn't possibly have information to claim it was foul play. It's hard to prove a negative but a complete lack of evidence of anyone else being involved, leaves it with the victim acting of her own free will. Accusing a "suspect" before the evidence has even shown there is a crime was a terrible thing to do.
There was no grey area when it came to LE tracking her movements that day and finding her to be alone and not acting under duress or force.
This quote is often repeated by many in LE, false arrests and prosecutions are an unfortunate part of our history.

It is a capital mistake to theorize in advance of the facts, insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. ~Sherlock Holmes~

a lack of evidence does not mean evidence does not exist. I did not posit this was foul play nor accuse anyone.

Without knowing more (and I think there is more to know), I struggle to come to the place that has Debbie intentionally killing herself that day.

 

[waldojabba]

a lack of evidence does not mean evidence does not exist. I did not posit this was foul play nor accuse anyone.

Without knowing more (and I think there is more to know), I struggle to come to the place that has Debbie intentionally killing herself that day.

I followed this case closely and I 100 per cent agree with you. I absolutely agree there is more to know. Imo.

 

[caradana]

Noting circumstantial similarities between this case and the active search for Lara Emanuele from New Jersey, thread link below.
- The shopping trip for miscellaneous items right before the disappearance
- The pulling over in an unexplained spot abutting dense woods in difficult environmental conditions
I hope LE finds Lara Emanuele ASAP

NJ - NJ - Lara Emanuele, 46, Roxbury, car found @ Holiday Inn Express, Mount Arlington, 7 Jun 2023

Authorities Seeking Public Assistance in Locating Adult Female from Roxbury Morris County Prosecutor Robert J. Carroll, Chief of Detectives Robert McNally, and Roxbury Police Chief Dean Adone are seeking the public’s assistance in locating a 46-year-old female from Roxbury, New Jersey. Lara...

www.websleuths.com

 

[asmi106082]

MOO

I don’t believe it was suicide. I do not accuse anyone, especially her family.

I don’t believe the ME and police are intentionally hiding evidence. I believe they are not infallible and there have been numerous cases in the past where they have changed their ruling.

We may never know. I don’t think it has to be a huge conspiracy theory. I just think they might not be seeing the whole picture. MOO

 

[Erutan]

MOO

I don’t believe it was suicide. I do not accuse anyone, especially her family.

I don’t believe the ME and police are intentionally hiding evidence. I believe they are not infallible and there have been numerous cases in the past where they have changed their ruling.

We may never know. I don’t think it has to be a huge conspiracy theory. I just think they might not be seeing the whole picture. MOO

Ita.
It just seems as though something went terribly wrong that day !
I'll always wonder if anyone else met Debbie ...
Imo.

 

[Seattle1]

The posts on DC's Facebook page before it was taken down showed a person struggling with feelings of helplessness and depression over several years.

She may have hid it from her family and co-workers, as many do who are suicidal.

May she rest in peace, and prayers for her family and all who loved her.


edited to re-word

^^bbm

Hmmm??... I don't share this recollection by OP at all.

I'm still mostly puzzled over response by LE. JMO

 

[LeahBee]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for not an approved source>

Dr. Baden only reviewed a copy of the autopsy report provided by the NY Post??

Famed pathologist Dr. Baden believes Debbie Collier’s autopsy implies murder

“I think the medical examiner doesn’t understand what forensic pathology is,” Dr. Michael Baden quipped to The Post.

nypost.com

"The autopsy report, obtained by The Post and provided to Baden for review..."

 

[Warwick7]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for not an approved source>

Dr. Baden only reviewed a copy of the autopsy report provided by the NY Post??

Famed pathologist Dr. Baden believes Debbie Collier’s autopsy implies murder

“I think the medical examiner doesn’t understand what forensic pathology is,” Dr. Michael Baden quipped to The Post.

nypost.com

"The autopsy report, obtained by The Post and provided to Baden for review..."

"Usually the GBI is much better than most,” Baden said. “I’m kind of upset that they could call this kind of a case suicide, especially with her being found naked — that’s outrageous."
Quote from the article.

 

[LeahBee]

@Warwick7 sorry, my post kind of lost context with the snip haha..
Wondering if Dr. performed an autopsy or just review of the report?

Seems she was only wearing a jersey top in the cctv footage, and I assume some small shorts? How much could have burned/melted in the flash fire?
I've seen some reports say partially nude/mostly nude/nude...

However if the Dr reviewed the report which says charred clothing was found on the remains, why is he claiming she was just out there naked? Seems misleading.

Eta: also doesn't make sense to claim she must have been deceased when the fire started when she had thermal injuries in her trachea. Lack of soot and carbon monoxide does seem strange but he himself says in the article it's not found in 100% of cases

 

[Sundog]

I am confident that the GBI knew what they were doing and made the appropriate finding, as tragic as it is to hear.

 

[Warwick7]

"Usually the GBI is much better than most,” Baden said. “I’m kind of upset that they could call this kind of a case suicide, especially with her being found naked — that’s outrageous."
Quote from the article.

MOO
I'm giving Baden credit--point blank!

 

[Curiousobserver]

With all due respect for Dr. Baden, he seems to be completely ignoring a scenario where she intended to die by oxycodone intoxication, started some sort of small fire, and it accidently got out of control. She wouldn't have significant soot in her lungs if she was angled down the hill and the heat rose in a direction away from her mouth and nose, or if she was lying on her back. She would still inhale superheated gas from the initial flash. Dr. Baden either lacks imagination, or is just trying to be famous.

Remember that she purchased most of the items at the scene

 

[Warwick7]

"...autopsy report indicated she had no carbon dioxide or soot in her system, she would have had to be dead before the fire started."

https://www.crimeonline.com/2023/02/27/debbie-collier-renowned-pathologist-dr-baden-says-georgia-mom-likely-murdered-despite-autopsy-saying-suicide/?s=09

 

[HongKongPhooey]

"...autopsy report indicated she had no carbon dioxide or soot in her system, she would have had to be dead before the fire started."

https://www.crimeonline.com/2023/02/27/debbie-collier-renowned-pathologist-dr-baden-says-georgia-mom-likely-murdered-despite-autopsy-saying-suicide/?s=09

That’s weird isn’t it - why would she have stripped off her top if she wasn‘t alive when the fire took?

 

[LeahBee]

@Warwick7 link isn't working for me. I doubt the autopsy stated she was dead before the fire if it also states she died from the fire. I think that additional comment is just opinion from... not the medical examiner IMO



@HongKongPhooey seems more likely her clothes were burned off imo

 

[LeahBee]

I just have a hard time buying what this Dr is selling when his statements about her condition contradict what NYP says the autopsy report says

-she died before the fire but she has thermal injuries to her trachea?

According to studies on fire related deaths "In other cases where there has been very rapid burning with fast consumption of environmental oxygen, for example with accelerants or a bush fire [9], a “flash fire” effect may also cause death from oxygen deprivation with minimal levels of carbon monoxide being present. The lack of carbon monoxide in the peripheral blood in circumstances such as this should not therefore be taken as evidence that death had occurred before the fire began"

The autopsy evaluation of “straightforward” fire deaths - Forensic Science, Medicine and Pathology

link.springer.com

Other studies of known deaths by fire showed soot in the airways of just 68% of cases

Medical Examiner Review of the Characteristics of Fire-Related Homicides

While fire-related deaths are regularly encountered by medical examiners, fire-related homicides are relatively uncommon. Although some large retrospective studies of fire-related deaths have been performed, few large studies have specifically reviewed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As far as being out there naked = she couldn't have taken her own life?
We saw in the surveillance footage when she was buying all these items before her death that she only had on a t-shirt and shorts.
NYP states that the autopsy report included that she had the charred remnants of clothing on her.

" ... while the autopsy notes there were “charred remnants of clothing present in the distribution of the lower torso.”"

Famed pathologist Dr. Baden believes Debbie Collier’s autopsy implies murder

“I think the medical examiner doesn’t understand what forensic pathology is,” Dr. Michael Baden quipped to The Post.

nypost.com

What Dr. Baden is claiming just doesn't match with what is alleged to be stated in the autopsy report - which he apparently reviewed - nor does it take into account the actual science behind death by fire JMO

I'm definitely leaning towards the ME who examined the body in this case

 

[Warwick7]

@Warwick7 link isn't working for me. I doubt the autopsy stated she was dead before the fire if it also states she died from the fire. I think that additional comment is just opinion from... not the medical examiner IMO



@HongKongPhooey seems more likely her clothes were burned off imo

Yes...it is a quote from the article.