GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #13

[Sonya610]

Now that a civil case is pending (although we don't know for sure yet "if" it is and by who), can the plaintiff subpoena evidence from the criminal case? Don't know if I asked this correctly. Just want to know if undisclosed evidence from the criminal investigation can become part of a civil case if SM hasn't been tried yet.

I don't know but I doubt if they can get undisclosed evidence from the prosecution for a civil case before the criminal trial. I think this letter is a perfect example of why they can't! Leaking info to the public and possibly messing up the potential jury pool would certainly be ONE reason!

 

[Backwoods]

OK, on the most recent Telegraph article, am I understanding correctly that we are dealing with at least two separate letters here:

...according to a letter demanding $1 million from the company insuring owners of the Georgia Avenue apartment complex where she lived. ...

http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/200...refrigerator.html#disqus_thread#storylink=cpy​

...according to a letter from the apartment complex owners to their insurance company’s lawyer. ...

story at:
http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html#wgt=rcntnews

 

[pearl]

OK, on the most recent Telegraph article, am I understanding correctly that we are dealing with at least two separate letters here:



story at:
http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html#wgt=rcntnews

My understanding of the article is there are two separate letters.

 

[Backwoods]

My understanding of the article is there are two separate letters.

...and maybe a separate email also (although maybe that counts as one of the letters). Sounds like someone spilled the whole file.

 

[Backwoods]

Regardless of what the DA might have revealed to LG's family regarding actual evidence, the Giddings' attorneys could not state it in this letter because, first of all, it's unsubstantiated. The civil attorneys don't have test results in their possession at this time. Secondly, revealing evidence at this juncture could potentially harm the criminal case. So we hear blood and hair. Might be McD's hair, might not. It's a bluff.

I do absolutely agree with you that the trash can is in terrible taste!

bbm: Just picked bessie's comment about the trash can out of several posts that mentioned it to say: A picture that accompanies the story shows the trash can -- and it looks like maybe the law students (I guess Lauren, too?)"graffiti-ed" their names on the thing, maybe at some point before Lauren's death -- so maybe it is NOT a sort of "memorial", as the article almost makes it sound...? I wonder (if it was indeed "signed" by the law student contingent at Barristers Hall before the murder) whether Stephen contributed his signature, too.

Dang thing will probably disappear and end up on eBay.

 

[Tilmylastbreath]

you can buy a 'master key' to any brand or lock off of ebay (or else where online), you can also remove a lock and take it to local hardware store to have a key made.

besides, dont need a key...most can be picked easily (how to video's right on youtube). window locks are even more easy to get into.

sick but true.

locks are for the honest people...

 

[GeorgiaSunshine]

I thought it was interesting in Comments section of Recent Article, commenter Soames weighs in: http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html#disqus_thread

check out his comments both yesterday at 1:54 pm,

<modsnip>

And yesterday at 2:05

<modsnip>

 

[Sonya610]

An interesting point was brought up by a macon.com commenter, they said it didn't make sense for the body to be stored in the third apartment.

I agree, why store the torso in the downstairs fridge? The neighbor could come home at any time and find it. Would make more sense to just use the victim's fridge plus would be safer than carrying things down the stairs to a third apartment and risk someone noticing.

Any theories on that? I do hope people don't just say "well the killer was crazy, that explains it" because at this point it doesn't seem like the killer was messy and careless so I think there must be some logic to it IF the downstairs apartment was used.

 

[tomkat]

Not murder, Tomkat. Georgia does have laws which require apartment owners to provide adequate security for its tenants against foreseeable third party crimes. This is a good article:
http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2010/Oct/209692.html

Basically, the law says the owner must have knowledge of a past similar crime on the property or in the vicinity. If there were no past assaults on women in the area, BB might not be required under the law to install extra security measures. But again, I don't think security cameras and alarms are the big issue here. It's the key that's "key", and that's pretty much a no-brainer, IMO. BB claims she doesn't know of a lost master key, yet we know McD had one. To me, that shows a lax attitude about security.

The Telegraph article also says:
http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html

If the lawyers can produce an e-mail, it won't bode well for BB unless she can show action was taken to repair the problems. I don't hold the owners responsible for LG's murder. If, however, it is shown that the killer gained access to her apartment with a key from the management office that wasn't properly secured, then yes, IMO they should be held liable for negligence.

This brings to mind something that stuck in my craw about those purported bloodstained gloves. BB was quick to say it was paint, but I question if that wasn't an effort to do damage control. There's an obvious difference between dried blood and paint on rubber gloves. I'm not even sure what I think about those glove, but the story smelled fishy. I don't have any facts to base that on; it's strictly conjecture on my part. I do wonder about it, though.

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html#storylink=cpy​

The unit must be safe and habitable. Most of that applies to roof, flooring, electrical and plumbing. If you have windows out or no locks, it's unsafe, common sense takes precendence here...........there is no law that says you must have a security system. If it's not safe, DONT" RENT IT. That goes back on the tenant too. There are bad LLords and there are good ones. BH is a good one.

The article also stated that BB DID repair a DOOR in LG unit that was reported having problems. That's just it though, WHO REALLY knows. The apartments have been totally remodeled so everything was probably in good condition. I'm just saying the atty are making it out like the complex and the Bushes are responsible for what happened to LG. I think SM or whomever is the problem and LG also had a key under her mat that everyone knew about it, anyone snooping is going to look over the door, under a mat or in a plant pot for a spare key. We dont' know our neighbors, you have to be careful!

We had a rapist who lived across the street from us when I was young and hind sight, we realized he had stalked us too, we were just lucky we weren't attacked. Right place right time and didnt' answer the door to him if we were home alone. He was very reclusive and odd but he was also married and had 2 young children. Instinct takes over. People are responsible for their own actions too. SOciety today always wants to blame someone, anyone today.

BH is not unsafe in my opinion.

 

[tomkat]

An interesting point was brought up by a macon.com commenter, they said it didn't make sense for the body to be stored in the third apartment.

I agree, why store the torso in the downstairs fridge? The neighbor could come home at any time and find it. Would make more sense to just use the victim's fridge plus would be safer than carrying things down the stairs to a third apartment and risk someone noticing.

Any theories on that? I do hope people don't just say "well the killer was crazy, that explains it" because at this point it doesn't seem like the killer was messy and careless so I think there must be some logic to it IF the downstairs apartment was used.

Yeah I remember discussing this very early on. We wondered if the tenant had actually COMPLETELY moved out and if the power was on. SO..he hadn't completely moved out but I'm guessing he wanted any deposit back from GA Power, so the power was probably off. So once again, why store a body in a hot apt and fridge?? AND since we now know downstairs guy had not completely moved out, who would risk using his fridge or apt?

I have to agree, he had problems getting rid of the body becuase of size, so what makes us think he was going to traipse all over the complex with a torso??

Ok, so if not in the downstairs unit, that means DA has nothing once again. Because why is LG atty pointing the finger at that fridge???

I swear bullets and accusations coming from all directions? Can we say frenzy? I am still waiting for some damning DNA!!! I pray there is some!!

 

[tomkat]

you can buy a 'master key' to any brand or lock off of ebay (or else where online), you can also remove a lock and take it to local hardware store to have a key made.

Besides, dont need a key...most can be picked easily (how to video's right on youtube). Window locks are even more easy to get into.

Sick but true.

Locks are for the honest people...

thanks! Wow!

 

[tomkat]

I think that at this point we still just don't know exactly what LE meant by "master key" -- we know it opened most/all doors there (as Patterson stated at the commitment hearing, I think), but was it an "official" master key or one obtained elsewhere (off the internet, for example, as you say). These questions are on my mind as well. BB likely may not know exactly what was found either, though possibly she may.

ETA: Another thing to keep in mind when pondering this is that the apartment complex is a very small one -- so likely not too many "levels" of master keys.

Someone had said last summer that a "bump key" could also be used, can be made or whatever, youtube shows how it works, so I still wonder if it's a MASTER or a bump key. OF COURSE the prosecution would call it a master key and it might be it did openn other doors as I belive LE opened the elder lady's apt with it, but evyerone is ignoring the fact that he had LG actualy KEY to her apt too.......Just dont' understand the frenzy everyone pionting fingers at everyone. lol. Interesing how no one else was harmed yet he had a MASTER key and the only person harmed was the one he had the acutal KEY to her apt. How will a jury view that?

 

[tomkat]

Someone refresh my memory please. We discussed the key issue last summer quite a bit. Was it ever determined exactly who had access to the master key for the apartment complex or was it just the landlords? Would "master key" be accurate if it was a key that would open just about anything which can be purchased off the internet? When I think of "master key," I think of a key that can open a clearly defined number of locks. Where I work, there are various levels of "master keys." Each person has a key to his/her door. Janitors have master keys for the locks on the doors of the building section they are assigned to clean. These master keys don't work on other sections of the building. There is only one key that opens every door in the building. Plus, all of the keys cannot be copied because of their design.
The article currently under discussion states "absent the master key." Does this mean that the landlord admits that SM actually had a master key to the apartment complex?
I seem to live in a perpetual state of confusion about some things related to this case.

It was stated that the master key in SM possession opened the 4 units where he lives if I remember correctly. I presume, like the cadaver dogs, NO OTHER APTS were checked?? Or were they?

The problem with master keys is, if you lose it and dont' want it in anyone's hands, you have to rekey all the locks and make a new master key so that the notches of the key bump ALL the keys inside only those locks. Something like that. But a new master key is needed, BB stated in article she had lost a master key in the garden. Also she had stated she changed some of the locks including LG and SM, when they/new tenants moved in, so that means making a new master key (old wouldn't work on new locks) but i suppose the old master key could work on some of the old locks still???? But how would SM find the old master key in the garden or even know it was there? He had to have made a new one if LG and other locks were changed, the old one, if found or left behind from the previous owner, wouldn't have opened her door. ONly the old locks that weren't yet changed, if any. Not sure SM was in that complex when the previous owner had it though. So that again, means he had to make it or order a master key.........

That's also my point, if a criminal wants in, he's getting in. You can't blame the apt complex owner for everything, people are ALSO and mostly responsible for their own safety and actions. Apparently the complex was in good repair, not ANYTHING that leads me to believe that this commplex was negligent,eveyrone assumes the perp got in by using a KEY, not thru the windows, not thru a door that was in bad repair.

 

[Sonya610]

I have to agree, he had problems getting rid of the body becuase of size, so what makes us think he was going to traipse all over the complex with a torso??

Ok, so if not in the downstairs unit, that means DA has nothing once again. Because why is LG atty pointing the finger at that fridge???

The letter points the finger at the fridge because that implies a master key was used during the crime (i.e. makes the apartment owners look liable for security issues).

But back to the downstairs fridge. I think using the victim's fridge make more sense. Could space have been an issue? Then both would be used.

I don't think disposing of the torso was a problem size wise (unless the plan was to bury it in the woods, and yes that would require a lot of work and possibly lead to procrastination). The torso in the trash can has always bothered me about this case, I have always wondered WHY???

I am fairly convinced now the reason was the odor. If in fact (yes, this is rumor) the torso was cut in half then that could have caused really rapid decomposition. If the intestines are ruptured the bacteria that is released speeds up the decomp process a whole lot. Now a hunter would know that (or someone that watches to many real crime shows), but if if the "real killer" wasn't a hunter they may not have known that. Did he store the torso thinking it would be fine for a couple of days and then suddenly realize it wasn't fine when he had to move it? I think that is exactly what happened.

If that is in fact what happened and it WAS stored in the downstairs fridge, then why on earth did it take them week's to realize the downstairs fridge was involved? Surely the cadaver dogs would have freaked out over that fridge immediately! If they knew it was involved that would be one of the best pieces of possible evidence, why let it sit in the complex for TWO WEEKS before admitting it as evidence?

Since they didn't use cadaver dogs on any of the other apartments at the complex (I believe that is the case, isn't it?) then it could have been stored in ANOTHER fridge that the dogs never checked!

Picture below as fridge was removed in mid July. Note the guy moving it is NOT wearing gloves....I don't see any finger print dust either. They were trapsing in and out of all 3 apartments for weeks, if the evidence was NOT protected who's to say they didn't track a hair in from one apartment to another "accidentally"?

 

[bessie]

The unit must be safe and habitable. Most of that applies to roof, flooring, electrical and plumbing. If you have windows out or no locks, it's unsafe, common sense takes precendence here...........there is no law that says you must have a security system. If it's not safe, DONT" RENT IT. That goes back on the tenant too. There are bad LLords and there are good ones. BH is a good one.

The article also stated that BB DID repair a DOOR in LG unit that was reported having problems. That's just it though, WHO REALLY knows. The apartments have been totally remodeled so everything was probably in good condition. I'm just saying the atty are making it out like the complex and the Bushes are responsible for what happened to LG. I think SM or whomever is the problem and LG also had a key under her mat that everyone knew about it, anyone snooping is going to look over the door, under a mat or in a plant pot for a spare key. We dont' know our neighbors, you have to be careful!

We had a rapist who lived across the street from us when I was young and hind sight, we realized he had stalked us too, we were just lucky we weren't attacked. Right place right time and didnt' answer the door to him if we were home alone. He was very reclusive and odd but he was also married and had 2 young children. Instinct takes over. People are responsible for their own actions too. SOciety today always wants to blame someone, anyone today.

BH is not unsafe in my opinion.

I'm all for personal responsibility. High crime rates, however, have brought about new laws to prevent crime, and to offer victims additional recourse to receive compensation not met by criminal courts. Under certain conditions property owners can be found guilty of neglect when a crime occurs on their premises if they have failed to furnish adequate seurity measures. The link I pasted in my previous post gives a basic explanation of the law in Georgia.

http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2010/Oct/209692.html

 

[Sonya610]

I'm all for personal responsibility...[/URL]

On that note how does that apply to the victim? I mean how can they complain about windows locks when the victim left a key in a vase outside of her front door and NUMEROUS people knew about it?

Seems window locks are a moot point since no windows were broken into AND there is a handy key by the door!

 

[SouthernKate]

The letter points the finger at the fridge because that implies a master key was used during the crime (i.e. makes the apartment owners look liable for security issues).

But back to the downstairs fridge. I think using the victim's fridge make more sense. Could space have been an issue? Then both would be used.

I don't think disposing of the torso was a problem size wise (unless the plan was to bury it in the woods, and yes that would require a lot of work and possibly lead to procrastination). The torso in the trash can has always bothered me about this case, I have always wondered WHY???

I am fairly convinced now the reason was the odor. If in fact (yes, this is rumor) the torso was cut in half then that could have caused really rapid decomposition. If the intestines are ruptured the bacteria that is released speeds up the decomp process a whole lot. Now a hunter would know that (or someone that watches to many real crime shows), but if if the "real killer" wasn't a hunter they may not have known that. Did he store the torso thinking it would be fine for a couple of days and then suddenly realize it wasn't fine when he had to move it? I think that is exactly what happened.

If that is in fact what happened and it WAS stored in the downstairs fridge, then why on earth did it take them week's to realize the downstairs fridge was involved? Surely the cadaver dogs would have freaked out over that fridge immediately! If they knew it was involved that would be one of the best pieces of possible evidence, why let it sit in the complex for TWO WEEKS before admitting it as evidence?

Since they didn't use cadaver dogs on any of the other apartments at the complex (I believe that is the case, isn't it?) then it could have been stored in ANOTHER fridge that the dogs never checked!

Picture below as fridge was removed in mid July. Note the guy moving it is NOT wearing gloves....I don't see any finger print dust either. They were trapsing in and out of all 3 apartments for weeks, if the evidence was NOT protected who's to say they didn't track a hair in from one apartment to another "accidentally"?

Remember that it also took them quite awhile to remove the tub from LG's apartment. A local reporter did a story about the marks she saw when she was let in the apartment and then they removed it.

Also, that fridge did have fingerprint dust from other angles - I remember us discussing it.

 

[3doglady]

I thought it was interesting in Comments section of Recent Article, commenter Soames weighs in: http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html#disqus_thread

check out his comments both yesterday at 1:54 pm,

<modsnip>

And yesterday at 2:05

<modsnip>

I guess I got there too late looks like those comments were removed.

 

[tomkat]

Not murder, Tomkat. Georgia does have laws which require apartment owners to provide adequate security for its tenants against foreseeable third party crimes. This is a good article:
http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2010/Oct/209692.html

Basically, the law says the owner must have knowledge of a past similar crime on the property or in the vicinity. If there were no past assaults on women in the area, BB might not be required under the law to install extra security measures. But again, I don't think security cameras and alarms are the big issue here. It's the key that's "key", and that's pretty much a no-brainer, IMO. BB claims she doesn't know of a lost master key, yet we know McD had one. To me, that shows a lax attitude about security.

The Telegraph article also says:
http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html

If the lawyers can produce an e-mail, it won't bode well for BB unless she can show action was taken to repair the problems. I don't hold the owners responsible for LG's murder. If, however, it is shown that the killer gained access to her apartment with a key from the management office that wasn't properly secured, then yes, IMO they should be held liable for negligence.

This brings to mind something that stuck in my craw about those purported bloodstained gloves. BB was quick to say it was paint, but I question if that wasn't an effort to do damage control. There's an obvious difference between dried blood and paint on rubber gloves. I'm not even sure what I think about those glove, but the story smelled fishy. I don't have any facts to base that on; it's strictly conjecture on my part. I do wonder about it, though.

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2012/04/24/2001930/blood-hair-found-in-refrigerator.html#storylink=cpy​

Well, security. Criminal background checks are a good idea, but NOT EVERYONE HAS YET committed their FIRST crime and have no record.............We know who that is. So BB couldn't have warned anyone and it would have been in bad taste to rent to him had he had some felony record.

ALSO, do we remember the interview done with BB where she stated that she asked LG if she was comfortable staying next to SM?? LG said yes.

Landlords should obviously be responsible in renting and repairs but if you have rentals in a bad area you cannot be held responsible for the neighbors rental. People have to do their homework, esp if moving to a new area.



There has to be a line drawn and I think people will sue anyone for anything these days adn it doesnt' mean a LL is to be his tenants keeper. Is the mortgage co so responsible as well when they sell homes? Are we just talking about multifamily property or single family?

No one can know everything and I still think that BH is a safe place however I do agree that if the master key mentioned is something questionable BUT he had her key too

 

[tomkat]

I don't think the article says anywhere that *advertiser censored* was being downloaded. Doesn't it say movies were being downloaded illegally? Couldn't that just mean, you know, a piracy kind of thing?

HA< dont' know where I got that.......? So then what was the big deal all about. I'll have to re-read that ...certainly it was illegal but how does that make the complex accountable for a murder? Why was that even mentioned?