GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 # 8

[angelanalyzes]

I'm actually hoping that inquiry was made by someone outside of the investigation, like yourself.
Why would LE attempt to match that packaging with that particular saw?
IMO, that's going to be impossible, given the nature of the packaging.
If LE were actually attempting this, IMO, this would be an act of desperation.
I feel like LE has better evidence than this, and taking this kind of measure would be unnecessary.
If this were the case, they'd have a better chance of finding more remains in the landfill and getting forensics from them.

I still feel confident LE has their man, and the evidence to convict him.
But, it's little things like this that continue to raise concerns in my mind.
I certainly hope we get something out of the commitment hearing that will
settle this once and for all. This next week is going to be a long one. :waiting:

I just don't know how someone outside the investigation would have had the info to make the call 2 weeks ago. If it was LE, they may have just called because the saw had been wiped of prints/etc. and they were just wondering if there was a way to prevent McD from saying it wasn't his saw, but now we know that SMD is not denying it was his saw apparently, but claiming he only used it to cut a branch.
I know they have more evidence, I'm not worried, if they called Stanley they may have been covering their bases. Or like Psychomom said it could have been someone from the defense side.

 

[bessie]

I have contacted an engineer at the manufacturing company to ascertain whether or not it is possible to match the individual saw to the packaging, possibly through the UPC number or production defects in the blade/handle that would link the saw to a particular batch. I expect to hear back from the engineer on Monday.

I spoke to the packaging department and they told me that it's likely investigators could only narrow it down to a 3 year production period. In other words, they may only be able to determine that the packaging found in SMD's apt and the hacksaw with Lauren's DNA on it were produced within the same 3 year period
However, when I speak to the engineer I hope to find out information about toolmarks made on the saw during manufacture...

Also of interest, I was told that a couple weeks back the department received an inquiry of the same nature, related to a homicide/dismemberment. Since the information about the packaging and saw discovery was only recently released, I think someone inside the investigation may have made the call 2 weeks ago.

Good work, Angel. I didn't make any phone calls, but I did do a little research. I know some bladed instruments bear a maker's mark, and power tools have serial numbers. I didn't think either of those would apply to an average hand tool, and I was right. I googled images of the product, and in the samples that turned up, the packaging appeared to be identical, and I couldn't determine any differences in the markings on the hacksaws.

The information from the manufacturing department is what I would expect to be true. A lot number or production period can probably be found in the bar code detail. It might even identify a particular region where the product was sold. Also, some large retailers use their own SKU numbers. So, if the item was purchased at Wal-Mart or Home Depot, for example, the packaging would show that.

The big problem is linking the hacksaw itself to the packaging. Machine marks or another manufacturing irregularity might identify a particular lot. And if that entire lot was shipped to only a few retailers in the same region, you could eliminate some possibilities. But otherwise, unless a product, or some variation of a product, is manufactured exclusively for a particular retailer, I would think it's nearly impossible to distinguish one hacksaw from another of the same model. I'll be interested to see what the engineer tells you.

 

[Backwoods]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SBM

Only one idea comes to mind for me:
1. perp's fingerprints on both saw packaging and saw frame, or
2. perp's fingerprints on both saw packaging and saw blade.

Or ditto perp's DNA.

And that does not really "match" packaging with saw:
it would merely show perp handled both items (imo).

Otherwise I'm blanking but open to ideas.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Backwoods and Others:
You have theories on this? Tell us, please.

No, no theories, just backing up my earlier statements that the hacksaw evidence contained in the warrant is likely to be evidence that is "flawed" in some way. Since it seems to me that it would be hard (not to say impossible, because I really don't know) to firmly link the packaging in one place with the saw in another, this confirms for me my thought that LE might use that evidence -- which has impact, for sure -- on the warrant partly to be able to justify the warrant while still holding back any "better stuff" from the defense a bit longer.

I do need to amend the statement I made about the Macon Telegraph only recently referring to "packaging from the hacksaw" instead of "packaging from a hacksaw of the same brand" or something like that. Looking back more closely, I find that the Telegraph has actually been pretty consistent in using the less ambiguous wording -- my mistake! It was other news outlets that seemed to try to keep from linking the saw and the packaging so definitively.

As far as the media interpretation goes, to me it boils down to how to interpret the wording in the warrant: (quote): "A package for the same such Stanley brand hacksaw was found in the apartment of the accused."

Question seems to be, does the legalese modifier "same such" modify the term "Stanley brand" or does it modify the word "hacksaw"?

 

[Backwoods]

I have contacted an engineer at the manufacturing company to ascertain whether or not it is possible to match the individual saw to the packaging, possibly through the UPC number or production defects in the blade/handle that would link the saw to a particular batch. I expect to hear back from the engineer on Monday.

I spoke to the packaging department and they told me that it's likely investigators could only narrow it down to a 3 year production period. In other words, they may only be able to determine that the packaging found in SMD's apt and the hacksaw with Lauren's DNA on it were produced within the same 3 year period
However, when I speak to the engineer I hope to find out information about toolmarks made on the saw during manufacture...

Also of interest, I was told that a couple weeks back the department received an inquiry of the same nature, related to a homicide/dismemberment. Since the information about the packaging and saw discovery was only recently released, I think someone inside the investigation may have made the call 2 weeks ago.

Wow, aa -- that's some sleuthing!! And very interesting, too.

I have to say a bunch of you have just impressed me mightily with your sleuthing -- from the floorplan discussion to going undercover at Zaxby's (with pictures, even) to this from angel. Great work, IMO!!

 

[Backwoods]

I just don't know how someone outside the investigation would have had the info to make the call 2 weeks ago. If it was LE, they may have just called because the saw had been wiped of prints/etc. and they were just wondering if there was a way to prevent McD from saying it wasn't his saw, but now we know that SMD is not denying it was his saw apparently, but claiming he only used it to cut a branch.
I know they have more evidence, I'm not worried, if they called Stanley they may have been covering their bases. Or like Psychomom said it could have been someone from the defense side.

regarding what I bolded above: Looks like info from the warrant broke big in the media about that time, so I guess it's possible, but someone (outside LE) would have sure had to be on the ball with it to act that quickly.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

Or someone involved in the defense. hdear:

I think this makes the most sense.
It would be foolish for them not to make sure the two could not be positively linked.
And, since the rep AA spoke to in Stanley's packaging dept knew the other call was about
a murder/dismemberment case, this says to me that whoever called was sure to point out
the severity of the situation. i.e. they wanted to make sure they got an answer, not a guess :twocents:

 

[al66pine]

angelanalyzes at post #577
I have contacted an engineer at the manufacturing company to ascertain...
I spoke to the packaging department ...
and they told me that it's likely investigators could only narrow it down to a 3

Also of interest, I was told that a couple weeks back the department received an inquiry of the same nature, related to a homicide/dismemberment. ...
I think someone inside the investigation may have made the call 2 weeks ago.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Easy to assume the manu. employee was contacted about the Giddings case and timing seems to support that conclusion.
Could call to hacksaw manu. have bn. made re another case?

Sadly in that last few months, several dismemberment cases occurred in the US. I've read about then on W/S. and recall these (do not hold me to 100% accuracy on details, going from shaky memory here):

1. Laura Ackerson, age late 20's, in Raleigh NC area, killed, dismembered, transported in Coleman-type coolers to TX, where remains were placed in creek. June or July 2011. She was mother to boys ~2 & 4 y/o, whose father & new-ish wife have both bn arrested for her death.

2. Leiby Kletsky (sp?), 8 y/o walking home~7 blks from day-camp to home in Brooklyn NY., lost his route, disappeared. Located w. assistance of local residents & business surv. cameras, leading to 35 y/o single male suspect, who apparently kept him 1-2 days. Suspect was, like vic, an Orthodox Jew (Hassidic?) who drugged boy, (strangled?), dismembered, w. some remains still in apt/home refrigerator, some remains placed in dumpster a couple blks or mi. away, when arrested. June or July 2011.

3. Jori Lirette (sp?) in Louisana, 7 y/o boy in wheelchair w. Cerebral Palsy, apparently killed, dismembered by mother's 30 y/o live-in BF (maybe the boy's father), who placed head outside for boy's mother to see on her return to their home.
Early Aug. 2011.

4. Poss. another, besides Giddings and the above, which I don't recall at the moment.

As said above, timing of question to hacksaw manu. seems to point to Giddings case, but could stem from a waaaay older case elsewhere. I have not actually seen confirmation re hacksaws being used in the other cases.

Seems incredible to me that there could be 4 dismemberment cases in the span of a few months in the US.
Gruesome.
Are there more of these cases, either in raw numbers or percentages?
Better-trained & educated LE investigators finding remains, that 25 or 50 yrs ago, w/not have bn located?

How can LE and prosecutors deal w. these crimes?


W. many others, hoping and praying for justice for victims, family and all involved.

 

[bessie]

angelanalyzes at post #577
I have contacted an engineer at the manufacturing company to ascertain...
I spoke to the packaging department ...
and they told me that it's likely investigators could only narrow it down to a 3

Also of interest, I was told that a couple weeks back the department received an inquiry of the same nature, related to a homicide/dismemberment. ...
I think someone inside the investigation may have made the call 2 weeks ago.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Easy to assume the manu. employee was contacted about the Giddings case and timing seems to support that conclusion.

Sadly in that last few months, several dismemberment cases occurred in the US. I've read about on W/S. and recall these (do not hold me to 100% accuracy on details, going from shaky memory here)

1. Laura Ackerson, age late 20's, in Raleigh NC area, killed, dismembered, transported in Coleman-type coolers to TX, where remains were placed in creek. June or July 2011. She was mother to boys ~2 & 4 y/o, whose father & new-ish wife have both bn arrested for her death.

2. Leiby Kletsky (sp?), 8 y/o walking home~7 blks from day-camp to home in Brooklyn NY., lost his route, disappeared. Located w. assistance of local residents & business surv. cameras, leading to 35 y/o single male suspect, who apparently kept him 1-2 days. Suspect was, like vic, an Orthodox Jew (Hassidic?) who drugged boy, (strangled?), dismembered, w. some remains still in apt/home refrigerator, some remains placed in dumpster a couple blks or mi. away, when arrested. June or July 2011.

3. Jori Lirette (sp?) in Louisana, 7 y/o boy in wheelchair w. MultSclr, apparently killed, dismembered by father in his 30's, who placed head outside for boy's mother to see on her return to their home.
Early Aug. 2011.

4. Poss. another, besides Giddings, for which I don't recall info at the moment.

As said above, timing of question to manu. seems to point to Giddings case, but could stem from a waaaay older case elsewhere.

Seems incredible to me that there could be 4 US cases in the span of a few months. Gruesome. How can LE and prosecutors deal w. these crimes?

W. many others, hoping and praying for justice for victims, family and all involved.

Junior Beebe was convicted early this month for killing two women in January. A hacksaw and a receipt were found in a shallow grave with the bodies. Jori was killed less than a week ago. There's no question who killed him, and the murderer told LE he used a saw from his own toolbox. :furious: Other than that, I won't even try to guess which murder generated that inquiry, but there are many possibilities. Some would be surprised at the number of murders that involve dismemberment. Zahra Baker, Trisha Sadler, Laura Ackerson, Alonzo Waters are a few recent cases that come to mind.

 

[bessie]

Wow, aa -- that's some sleuthing!! And very interesting, too.

I have to say a bunch of you have just impressed me mightily with your sleuthing -- from the floorplan discussion to going undercover at Zaxby's (with pictures, even) to this from angel. Great work, IMO!!

I totally agree. When members do a little legwork, a little research and share their findings with the group for discussion, it's Websleuths at its best, and what I enjoy most about this site.

 

[Backwoods]

Please, first of all know that this is NOT pertaining to Lauren! (My heart skipped when I first saw the headline)

Posting it only because I believe the death of this international student at Mercer came up earlier in the threads, when we (and LE) were dealing with rumors of "related" deaths. This student's death has been ruled as from natural causes, apparently.

Headline quote: "Cause of death determined for Mercer student"

link: http://www.macon.com/2011/08/19/1671306/cause-of-death-determined-for.html

 

[Backwoods]

The article we had the link to recently about possible further searching at the Twiggs County landfill led me to doing some online reading to refresh my knowledge about cadaver dogs (or human remains dogs, as some trainers seem to prefer) and their training and skills (and search and rescue dogs in general) -- and I am impressed all over again. Wow, that they can detect a single drop of blood, at times!

For any interested, just a few sort of random links for further reading:
http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/cadaverdogs.html
http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-cadaver-dog.htm

I surely would like to how much the dogs that were brought in very early in this case contributed to the actions LE took. Wonder if they were the cue to search the downstairs vacant apartment? And you have to wonder how/where they alerted in LG's and SM's apartments. I'll have to read back over some sources to remember how the timeline with the dogs and the investigation goes, but it's interesting to ponder.

Off-topic but related: I have four half-grown pups right now that I sure wish I had time and resources to try in S & R training. I adopted their mom as a pregnant stray last fall, just a few weeks after my dog I'd had for 15 years passed away. (I say my old dog sent the new one to me, complete with 5 pups to come, because she knew it would take at least that many dogs to begin to fill the empty spot she left. I was only able to find a GREAT home for one of the pups, so the rest are still with me, and much loved)

My pups are obviously part hound of some kind -- they're all about NOSE! Fun to watch them track CRICKETS, they'll do it most industriously for an hour or so if they get the chance, shutting everything else out. Their mom is very smart, and I believe they will be, too -- so they have a lot of potential I think.

 

[~SuperSleuth~]

I also did some reading up on cadaver dogs the other night.
I didn't find anything in particular I thought was worth linking to.
But then, I didn't spend much time on it (I got distracted with something else)

I did pick up a few things though...
Apparently any dog used to search a landfill must be very well trained
and it's imperative they have a specific target scent.
Not only are there lots of strong, distracting scents present, like food items,
but also things like dirty diapers, tampons, discarded items from hospitals
(including things hospitals are supposed to discard in other ways).
And apparently anything decaying which gives off methane can fool a dog.

One of the main concerns I was reading from dog handlers was one of safety.
Some won't even take their dogs to a landfill.
They feel the possibility of the dog being injured by something or picking up some disease,
versus the apparent low probability of finding anything, simply isn't worth the risk.
Snakes are apparently a big problem too... and around here this time of year, I'm sure it would be.

Also, any person in a landfill search would need to take a lot of extra precautions.
Thick sole boots, and other protective gear - maybe even a respirator.
And, of course, have ALL types of shots up-to-date.

So, definitely a lot of issues with a landfill search - for the dogs and people involved.

 

[bessie]

No, no theories, just backing up my earlier statements that the hacksaw evidence contained in the warrant is likely to be evidence that is "flawed" in some way. Since it seems to me that it would be hard (not to say impossible, because I really don't know) to firmly link the packaging in one place with the saw in another, this confirms for me my thought that LE might use that evidence -- which has impact, for sure -- on the warrant partly to be able to justify the warrant while still holding back any "better stuff" from the defense a bit longer.

I do need to amend the statement I made about the Macon Telegraph only recently referring to "packaging from the hacksaw" instead of "packaging from a hacksaw of the same brand" or something like that. Looking back more closely, I find that the Telegraph has actually been pretty consistent in using the less ambiguous wording -- my mistake! It was other news outlets that seemed to try to keep from linking the saw and the packaging so definitively.

As far as the media interpretation goes, to me it boils down to how to interpret the wording in the warrant: (quote): "A package for the same such Stanley brand hacksaw was found in the apartment of the accused."

Question seems to be, does the legalese modifier "same such" modify the term "Stanley brand" or does it modify the word "hacksaw"?

"Same such" modifies the compound "Stanley brand hacksaw". You're right, it absolutely goes to the interpretation of the arrest warrant, and no reporter worth his salt would interpret the statement to mean the packaging found in McD's apartment was identified to be the packaging that contained the hacksaw found in the storage closet!

As for the quality of the evidence, it's circumstantial and possibly unprovable, yet it suffices to substantiate probable cause for purposes of making an arrest. It's not required to meet the "moral certainty" tests like evidence used to win a conviction. There is a distinction between the two, and I can just about guarantee that the case won't rest on the hacksaw packaging or hearsay statements that McD boasted about being able to get away with murder.

 

[bessie]

I see you found an article on the carpet squares tests, Backwoods. Fascinating, isn't it? This topic comes up in many of the cases here, so I've done a good bit of reading. The Oesterhelweg study of the carpet squares is one of the most interesting articles I've read.

In short, the bodies of two subjects deceased for less than three hours were wrapped in clean blankets and laid on carpet squares for two minutes and ten minutes respectively. Precautions were taken to ensure the bodies were dry and did not emit any fluids, and the sheets prevented direct contact between the bodies and the carpet squares. Results showed high accuracy of detection in tests run over 35 days for the two minute contamination, and 65 days where there was 10 minutes of contamination. But it seems the real trick is to identify and isolate the specific byproducts released at different stages in the decomp process, and train the dogs to detect them. From what I understand, that is where the latest work with cadaver dogs is directed.

Here's Oesterhelweg's study with the carpet squares in a pdf.

Cadaver Dogs: A Study on Detection of Contaminated Carpet Squares

 

[bessie]

August 19, 2011

Agnes Scott Alum's Family Still Searching for RemainsThe Telegraph of Macon reports that organizers are discussing a second search of a landfill, but it could cost $50,000 or more per day. Authorities say a backhoe and some off-road trucks would be needed, along with workers to operate the equipment.

August 18, 2011

Investigators in Giddings Case Seek Help with Search of Twiggs Landfill
to gather volunteers and donations of equipment to help search a Twiggs County landfill in hopes of finding more of slain Mercer University law graduate Lauren Giddings’ remains.Macon police are working with the FBI and Giddings’ family to launch a second search at the landfill, but the search could cost $50,000 or more per day. A backhoe and a few off-road trucks are needed, as are workers to drive the equipment and vehicles.

They are also examining electronics, including flash drives, memory cards and cameras, a law enforcement source said.
Police have submitted more than 200 pieces of evidence to the FBI and GBI during the course of the investigation.

​

 

[Backwoods]

I see you found an article on the carpet squares tests, Backwoods. Fascinating, isn't it? This topic comes up in many of the cases here, so I've done a good bit of reading. The Oesterhelweg study of the carpet squares is one of the most interesting articles I've read.

In short, the bodies of two subjects deceased for less than three hours were wrapped in clean blankets and laid on carpet squares for two minutes and ten minutes respectively. Precautions were taken to ensure the bodies were dry and did not emit any fluids, and the sheets prevented direct contact between the bodies and the carpet squares. Results showed high accuracy of detection in tests run over 35 days for the two minute contamination, and 65 days where there was 10 minutes of contamination. But it seems the real trick is to identify and isolate the specific byproducts released at different stages in the decomp process, and train the dogs to detect them. From what I understand, that is where the latest work with cadaver dogs is directed.

Here's Oesterhelweg's study with the carpet squares in a pdf.

Cadaver Dogs: A Study on Detection of Contaminated Carpet Squares

Thanks much, bessie -- very interesting reading.

 

[Backwoods]

This report, from the Giddings family's area I think, rather than Macon, hints at a landfill search to come. Not as much info in that vein as the headline seems to promise, but still interesting:

Quote: "Family of murdered law student hoping to find more evidence"

"The family of a promising young law school graduate from Howard County, who was murdered in Georgia, is hoping to find more evidence to connect the suspect to the crime. ..."

read more at link: http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/re...ered-law-student-hoping-to-find-more-evidence

 

[Backwoods]

Junior Beebe was convicted early this month for killing two women in January. A hacksaw and a receipt were found in a shallow grave with the bodies. Jori was killed less than a week ago. There's no question who killed him, and the murderer told LE he used a saw from his own toolbox. :furious: Other than that, I won't even try to guess which murder generated that inquiry, but there are many possibilities. Some would be surprised at the number of murders that involve dismemberment. Zahra Baker, Trisha Sadler, Laura Ackerson, Alonzo Waters are a few recent cases that come to mind.

On this topic: Looks like yet another dismemberment case starting to break, this one in Michigan.

Quote: "Police: Tentative ID Made For Body Found In Suitcase"
More at link: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/28911069/detail.html?hpt=ju_bn5

edited to add: I see that the woman whose remains these are speculated to be has a thread on Websleuths:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147501&highlight=Prpich

 

[bessie]

On this topic: Looks like yet another dismemberment case starting to break, this one in Michigan.

Quote: "Police: Tentative ID Made For Body Found In Suitcase"
More at link: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/28911069/detail.html?hpt=ju_bn5

edited to add: I see that the woman whose remains these are speculated to be has a thread on Websleuths:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147501&highlight=Prpich

Oh, my...another lovely young college student. WTH!

 

[GeorgiaRoyalty]

Seems that at the link we've already had to the latest Macon Telegraph article on the case ...

link: http://www.macon.com/2011/08/17/1668142/youngest-giddings-sister-is-college.html

... the reporters are continuing to use their recently-adopted wording to talk about the hacksaw packaging:

Quote: "An arrest warrant alleges that authorities found a hacksaw with Giddings’ DNA in a locked room at the apartment complex. The packaging for the saw was found in McDaniel’s apartment, as were a master key to the complex and a key to Giddings’ residence."

No more ambiguous "packaging for a saw of the same brand", etc. Have they gotten some kind of clarification from LE on the meaning of the words in the warrant, do y'all think?

I understand the "common sense" aspect of this, but the fact remains that the warrant is not clearly worded to indicate "packaging from the same saw", IMO.

Forensic science buffs: How could it be determined that saw packaging in one location matched a saw in another location?

Also interesting to note (though maybe not so very important) is that the article says the keys were in his apartment, while the warrant says they were in his possession.

for reference, link to warrant: http://media.macon.com/static/graphics/0805McDanielWarrant.jpg

being in his apt. would be the same as being in his possession