GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - # 9

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tomkat said:
There are so many angles with the only information the public has, and with the only information we have, assuming it's not ALL of it, what kind of information would SS NOT SHARE with the public?

Assuming this is all there is....... how do we know they weren't both outside, away from their phones? A man was seen in the yard saturday afternoon (evening?), but no reports if there was a boat at the dock at that time, since no description could be given by the witness, nothing was noticed otherwise either, sadly, sadly

What have we missed/what other angles could there be in regards to the information we have?

I just don't think Mr D was killed "elsewhere" off the property, with SS verbage, he may have meant, outside the garage being "elsewhere" and not necessarily INSIDE the garage.

Makes sense SD was alive when she was "abducted" becausei f it was daylight and boat involved at their dock, that would be risky for the perps carrying a body

Makes sense that SD could have been abducted by car, not risky as far as neighbors or boaters seeing them, through all the trees in the driveway, STILL the question is WHY?

Makes sense (to me, i should add) that SD could have been abducted at dark, by boat, as not many would see this activity from lakeside, then if dead, WHY? Why not just leave her

Which brings me back to the "LIVE" abduction and a shield, as FF stated, but shield from what? If no one else was there to stop this?

Also, live abduction, after witnessing the death of husband, or even beheading, she would be in shock and not make any noise likely, by car or boat, but may have to be carried or supported, OMG, I can't imagine witnessing that !! how would we react??

WHY would someone be in the yard on saturday evening? Was it someone they knew from the neighborhood or party that may have been there looking for them? Was it after the party began? BUT WHY walk down to the lakeside? you can see from the house if they were at dock, unless the person was closer to the house, looking around for them. I dont' recall anyone stating how close or far from house this unknown person was located at the D's saturday evening

Maybe it wasn't someone they knew, maybe they were just trusting if they thought there was no one who had it out for them, so answered door friday or saturday to an unknown, thinking no harm, hell we do that sometimes, if we're all home, we arne't in a neighborhood, so maybe not wise to answer to people you dont' know

maybe they were just outside when it happened

STILL, the WHY? I dont' even think the LE knows that yet, what else is there to investigate when you have already reached so many dead ends?

What is LE searching these days?

just some rehashing, hoping to find another angle as to the how and why,that may have been missed
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I hope the partygoers were talked to well after the Derby party. Maybe someone didn't think it was important enough to state that they checked on the D's. (At the time)
 
Last evening thoughts...watching Dateline now and one other show earlier hosted by Candace Long (FBI expert) and got these nuggets of information. "A murder of rage is committed by someone really, really close to the victim" and "Sophisticated criminals know how to get the job done." I am trying to apply that to this case. Want to say thanks to Montjoy for his informative post, we all have questions, and we all want justice. That's the main thing. I do enjoy checking in with all of you and do try to keep an open mind. While I'm being honest, I have to say I would not have any qualms or questions about what should be done to whoever did this. I might want to sit front row. Would yall? Come on SS - there has to be something to go on!
 
Montjoy said:
"According to the FBI, mass murder is defined as four or more murders occurring during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders."

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Mass_murder.html

So, the murder of the Dermonds would not be considered as a mass murder.
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What is the date of the reference used for your info from the Princeton article linked, Montjoy?

I'll save you some time. It was posted to Wikipedia in 2005.. Yet does not include the day or month. The FBI multi-disciplinary symposium on serial murder in San Antonio, Texas, was held from August 29, 2005 through September 2, 2005. The Mass Murder victim total/definition was likely updated at this time. http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

Aggrawal A. (2005) Mass Murder. In: Payne-James JJ, Byard RW, Corey TS, Henderson C (Eds.) Encyclopedia of Forensic and Legal Medicine, Vol. 3, Pp. 216-223. Elsevier Academic Press, London
 
The symposium you keep mentioning was not about mass murders -- it was about serial murders -- so there was no attempt to define or redefine 'mass murder' at that time. (And so you are making a groundless assumption when you suggest that "The Mass Murder victim total/definition was likely updated at this time.") At any rate, I challenge you to find one official reference that states that the murder of two people is defined as a mass murder. I'll save you some time: you won't find one.
 
FYI- The (GBI)Georgia Bureau of Investigations, now has an interactive twitter account; interesting info of available GBI investigative resources, activities, alerts, etc..

ForensicScienceWeek @ForSciWeek · Aug 1
To celebrate #forensicscienceweek, @GBI_GA will be hosting a LIVE Twitter Q&A about forensic science! #asksomething http://ow.ly/zQ0yK
https://twitter.com/GBI_GA
 
Montjoy said:
To be honest, there are still too many gaps to string together a compelling narrative of how it happened. If I had to guess, they were targeted for the purpose of a theft/home invasion. Perhaps they were not even the intended targets; if, as has been suggested, the perp(s) came by boat, it might be easy to mistake an address. I think that whoever the perps were, they likely believed that there was something of value in the house, perhaps a safe, perhaps pharmaceuticals. I could imagine that when Mr. Dermond would not or could not reveal where the valuables were, a gun was held to his head to get Mrs. Dermond to give up the information. Perhaps he resisted and was shot (which may not have been part of the initial plan). Perhaps concerned about ballistic evidence, the perp or perps decided to behead him to remove the risk. Then, Mrs. Dermond was killed to remove a witness, and put in the lake to remove as much forensic evidence as possible.

As for whatever mess was made at the house by the presumed shooting and beheading, we really don't know what LE did or did not find there. It could have been a bloody mess. I guess I'm just saying that there are many reasons why someone might be beheaded that have nothing to do with 'sending a message'. If they wanted to send a message, why not behead both? Why take the head at all? Beheadings do happen in the course of murders, but other than in organized crime/drug cartels (and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Dermonds had any involvement with either), I've never heard of one being done to 'send a message'.
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I agree with some of your points. I just don't see the average robber bringing tools along to facilitate a decapitation. Robbers typically use guns as a means to carry out their crimes. The beheading brings it to another level for a robbery.

Jmo.
 
east2west said:
I agree with some of your points. I just don't see the average robber bringing tools along to facilitate a decapitation. Robbers typically use guns as a means to carry out their crimes. The beheading brings it to another level for a robbery.

Jmo.
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The beheading could have been completed with things found at the Dermond home (they likely had many different tools that could be used to that end); if it had not been a part of the original plan (as I tend to suspect), it more likely would have been. It isn't terribly difficult to behead someone, actually.
 
And, if the perps came by boat, they could have easily had a machete (as local fishermen/hunters have pointed out on this site). I just can't help thinking this was someone who lived nearby or was visiting relatives in the area. Couldn't it have been a young person or two? For some reason, I just can't see someone putting out a hit on this sweet couple. If Mr. D had a business deal go bad or something along those lines, seems to me that would have been a long time ago, not at this stage of his life.
 
Montjoy said:
The beheading could have been completed with things found at the Dermond home (they likely had many different tools that could be used to that end); if it had not been a part of the original plan (as I tend to suspect), it more likely would have been. It isn't terribly difficult to behead someone, actually.
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I guess my point was how many robberies or attempted robberies end in the victim being beheaded. ?

Personally I don't think this crime had anything to do with a theft.

Jmo
 
SS didn't say a theft but he did say he thought they "came for something they thought the Dermonds had." I can't imagine what that might be unless it was a safe/money/guns...? And if it was a hit, why not just shoot them and get the job done? What hit man travels by boat with a machete? This is the most confusing case I have ever read about, especially without having any news to go on.
 
Happyshoes said:
SS didn't say a theft but he did say he thought they "came for something they thought the Dermonds had." I can't imagine what that might be unless it was a safe/money/guns...? And if it was a hit, why not just shoot them and get the job done? What hit man travels by boat with a machete? This is the most confusing case I have ever read about, especially without having any news to go on.
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According to our info, nothing of value was taken, nothing in the house disturbed. If something of value were the motive, the house would have likely been ransacked, imo. Even a novice thief would have known that a multi million dollar home in a gated community would have a security system. If guns were their motive, they would have likely waited until the house was unoccupied, imo. The perp/s got what they came for, imo; two innocent lives.
All indicators point to a well planned and meticulously executed crime..imo

Sheriff Sills conclusion that the D's murders were personal, and that they must have been at least slightly acquainted with the perp/s is faulty at best, imo..
Thirteen weeks into the investigation and over three weeks of silence by SS and the msm speaks volumes and is very telling, imo..
 
If it was so planned, and they came to specifically kill two almost 90 year olds, why be so dramatic - why not just shoot them? It seems like rage to me - and group hug back to all. Can you tell this is the last thing on my mind before bedtime? I hope it's solved soon and I don't have to read the book years from now.
 
To my surprise, there have been three more crimes with beheadings in the news lately. I was hoping, since they've been solved, they might give a clue to the reason in this case.
1) Guy solicits couple for sex; kills woman, kills and decapitates man
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/2...yfriend-decapitated-after-arranging-sex-with/
2) Girl decapitates and dismembers schoolmate because she wants to dissect someone
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-wanted-dissect-body-report-article-1.1883931
3) Slumlord landlady stabs & beheads tenant who stops paying rent
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...bed-40-times-200-prosecutor-article-1.1887371

It seems like the common thread is that decapitating the person gave them satisfaction--although for really different reasons. None of them did it to hide evidence. (Well, maybe in the last case; but she left body parts in places where they'd be found.)
 
T-Rex said:
It seems like the common thread is that decapitating the person gave them satisfaction--although for really different reasons. None of them did it to hide evidence. (Well, maybe in the last case; but she left body parts in places where they'd be found.)
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Thanks for the links. Also of note is that nobody was decapitated 'to send a message' to a third party.
 
Happyshoes said:
SS didn't say a theft but he did say he thought they "came for something they thought the Dermonds had." I can't imagine what that might be unless it was a safe/money/guns...? And if it was a hit, why not just shoot them and get the job done? What hit man travels by boat with a machete? This is the most confusing case I have ever read about, especially without having any news to go on.
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I still think sometimes that, perhaps, the "something" was information of some kind. Maybe something connected to someone else? Someone to whom, the perp/s thought, the Dermonds had a tie or of whom, the perp/s thought, the Dermonds knew the whereabouts.
 
Yes, something can be valuable but not tangible -- like information, a password, an address, an account number, etc.
 
Backwoods said:
I still think sometimes that, perhaps, the "something" was information of some kind. Maybe something connected to someone else? Someone to whom, the perp/s thought, the Dermonds had a tie or of whom, the perp/s thought, the Dermonds knew the whereabouts.
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Quoting myself to add another thought or two that could tie on...

I think about the man reportedly sighted in the yard. Could the Dermonds have been expecting* a visitor, not one who turned into the perp, but one whom the perp/s followed or tracked, expected to be there -- but he was delayed for some reason and was not yet there when the perp/s made a move...?

Such a person might have even entered the house and discovered Mr. Dermond's body -- and, under the right circumstances, he might have known his death was linked to him (the visitor) somehow, panicked and fled.

Far-fetched, I know! Just trying to look at some different possibilities.

Also about that guy in the yard: We first heard a "neighbor" reported seeing him, but then, by the time we got linkable MSM, it was "a caller". Sometimes I have even wondered if it may have been an anonymous caller. To me, that would make some sense of the big deal about raising the reward.



ETA: * ... or even NOT expecting, but were surprised by a visit by someone (whom they knew or with whom they had connections) who was being stalked by the perp/s
 
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