GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #3

[BJsleuth]

They did a full toxicology screen, which would show most drugs, particularly neuroactive drugs. Antibiotics can slip under the radar of those, due to their short half-life in the system, which is why many antibiotics need to be taken 3 or 4 times a day - including amoxycillin. But the prescribing date on the amoxycillin packet (and the Maxolon) should give the police and pathologists a clue as to whether or not there would be likely to be any in her system.

The sertraline ("Zoloft") was specifically tested for, as they had found the packet in Allison's car, plus they knew she was on it anyway.

And speaking of the sertraline, the defence keep babbling on about "normal levels" being this or that - but they are referring to peripheral blood levels (like you'd get from a blood sample taken from the cubital vein - the one in front of your elbow). But the samples taken from Allison's body were from the liver and some liver tissue - and as I've pointed out before, the liver concentrates many drugs, including sertraline. This, plus post-moretem redistribution, gives much higher levels than a peripheral blood sample would have done - but they couldn't get peripheral blood due to the decomposition.

That's why Prof Olaf Drummer pointed out that the levels that WERE found were within the range that would be expected - in the liver - from somebody who had normal therapeutic levels in their system.

The problem is - the prosecution have to distil this point down to a couple of dot-point facts so that the jury, who would be non-medical, can see what the point actually is.

Thanks again Doc. Your guidance here is very much appreciated.

 

[MadDoc]

That statement alone is completely offensive to the intelligence of most people I would think. Like, WOW! "I did everything else except breast feed"! Amazing! IMO after hearing what he said in court today I have a sneaky suspicion that he thought he was special and hung around after the birth just in case his milk "came down" and he could in fact breast feed. I bet he wishes he could have given birth too and rambled on and on and on about how painful and horrendous it all was.

Don't forget the "we had a miscarriage" quote...

 

[JK673]

Forgive me,which part has you worried?

If its serotonin toxicity and the defence uses that... they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Doesn't give any thought to the fact there was blood and her hair in the car, plants from their property found entwined in her hair,no evidence of broken bones from falling off a bridge, no evidence of any overdose, no evidence of suicidal ideation etc.

Just tidbits about everything.

 

[Oberammergau]

I.M.O. only : The major flaw in GBC's "alibi" for the night of 19th, is his phone being put on the charger. I hope the prosecution goes really hard on this in cross examination.

He has now come up with the revelation that he gave his phone to Alison each evening and took it back each morning. I do not believe that for one minute. For heaven's sake - he was in REAL ESTATE ! Having worked in the industry myself, I can assure you it is not a 9 to 5 job. A lot of offers, negotiations etc. occur after hours. You need your phone 24/7. I do not think he would have agreed to that EVER !

So now he is expecting everyone to believe that he went to bed at 10 pm without his phone and PRESTO! he awakes the next morning at 6 to find HIS phone on the charger, but Alison and HER phone have vanished. Believable? I think not. I.M.O. only

Correct!
From another realestate agent
Phone is with me 24/7

 

[Total]

Precisely!

I wonder when the Maxolon was last filled and why it was taken? There's no known link of an interaction with amoxil but there IS a link between Maxolon and Zoloft (sertraline) contributing to serotonin syndrome. For those interested,please Google. Phone issues here and still trying to figure out functions.

Here it is:

]metoclopramide ↔ sertraline
Applies to: Maxolon (metoclopramide), Zoloft (sertraline)
Using metoclopramide together with sertraline can increase the risk of a rare but serious condition called the serotonin syndrome, which may include symptoms such as confusion, hallucination, seizure, extreme changes in blood pressure, increased heart rate, fever, excessive sweating, shivering or shaking, blurred vision, muscle spasm or stiffness, tremor, incoordination, stomach cramp, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. In addition, movement disorders such as twitching of the jaw and limbs, teeth clenching, severe jerking, and tongue and neck stiffness have been reported. You should contact your doctor immediately if you experience these symptoms while taking the medications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

If she had Maxolon in her system it would have shown up on the toxicology screen.

Also, I do not see how anyone with these symptoms could walk from Brookfield to Kholo. In the process leaving her phone within a three km radius, collected dropped leaves from around the house at Brookfield (so presumably rolled around on the floor), deposited some blood in the back of the Captiva after lifting the boxes with toys out, chipping her tooth somewhere and finally with both her hands in a jumper and over her head finds a way down a steep slope to lay down under a bridge. All that after watching the footy show, laying down in her bed, changing from pyjamas to exercise gear, putting on her shoes and singlet exercise top.

 

[Trooper]

true but I still don't think it was premeditated . premeditated he would be much more organised , like girls away somewhere and other plans

Organised.... that's the operative word, .. but this is Gerard Baden-Clay's event, where even the concept of organised as ordinary people understand it is in a whole other world. ..

I am firmly , in the most concrete way , convinced that Gerard actually thought and probably still thinks that he did organise it. .. one only has to look at his idea of what organised is in the realm of his business, his family, his creditors, his staff, his life as he lived it, to understand that organisation to Gerard is a matter of wild optimism and sheer rat cunning.

 

[wewillgetyou]

The feeling I got from Mr Byrne yesterday was they will be suggesting she floated down the creek and came to land in the spot she was found. The time lapse video was to show the amount of debris washed up and down that particular section of the creek hence how the plant matter could have been entwined in her hair.

Because we don't actually know where her body started from ( assuming it floated to its final resting place ) we don't know whether all those plants were available in the creek area to become entwined - does that make sense ?

 

[BJsleuth]

Here it is:



If she had Maxolon in her system it would have shown up on the toxicology screen.

Also, I do not see how anyone with these symptoms could walk from Brookfield to Kholo. In the process leaving her phone within a three km radius, collected dropped leaves from around the house at Brookfield (so presumably rolled around on the floor), deposited some blood in the back of the Captiva after lifting the boxes with toys out, chipping her tooth somewhere and finally with both her hands in a jumper and over her head finds a way down a steep slope to lay down under a bridge. All that after watching the footy show, laying down in her bed, changing from pyjamas to exercise gear, putting on her shoes and singlet exercise top.

I agree. I thought it was worth exploring that angle though.

 

[squizzey1]

Correct!
From another realestate agent
Phone is with me 24/7

mine too heaps done after hours

 

[Marimekko]

I.M.O. only : The major flaw in GBC's "alibi" for the night of 19th, is his phone being put on the charger. I hope the prosecution goes really hard on this in cross examination.

He has now come up with the revelation that he gave his phone to Alison each evening and took it back each morning. I do not believe that for one minute. For heaven's sake - he was in REAL ESTATE ! Having worked in the industry myself, I can assure you it is not a 9 to 5 job. A lot of offers, negotiations etc. occur after hours. You need your phone 24/7. I do not think he would have agreed to that EVER !

So now he is expecting everyone to believe that he went to bed at 10 pm without his phone and PRESTO! he awakes the next morning at 6 to find HIS phone on the charger, but Alison and HER phone have vanished. Believable? I think not. I.M.O. only

Not to mention, we are expected to believe Alison put his phone on the charger at 1.48am then after only ~ 3 - 3 1/2 hrs sleep got up and went for a 14km walk all before she was meant to be attending an all day conference!

 

[DrWatson]

That reference that someone posted earlier, about the serotonin syndrome, is actually very good. And of course one of the main diagnostic features of the syndrome is clonus, including ocular (eye) clonus, and general muscle clonus.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2010/0501/p1139.html

Clonus is a series of rhythmic contractions of muscles - in other words, similar to an epileptic fit or seizure. There are other components too - all of which would make it extremely difficult to walk 14Km - or to do anything at all, actually.

It will be interesting to hear what the defence forensic toxicologist will say, and even more interesting to see if the prosecution have anticipated what he'll say and are prepared well enough to cross-examine him. And to make the point understandable to the jury without being patronizing. They really do need to see these finer points for what they are, and to appreciate the significance of them, how important they are, in differentiating between the defence's version of events and that of the prosecution.

I also hope that the judge is up with it too - I'm sure he would be. And I hope he is able to give guidance to the jury if he senses that some of the technical details are going over their heads. I hope.....

 

[silverau]

Here it is:



If she had Maxolon in her system it would have shown up on the toxicology screen.

Also, I do not see how anyone with these symptoms could walk from Brookfield to Kholo. In the process leaving her phone within a three km radius, collected dropped leaves from around the house at Brookfield (so presumably rolled around on the floor), deposited some blood in the back of the Captiva after lifting the boxes with toys out, chipping her tooth somewhere and finally with both her hands in a jumper and over her head finds a way down a steep slope to lay down under a bridge. All that after watching the footy show, laying down in her bed, changing from pyjamas to exercise gear, putting on her shoes and singlet exercise top.

agree!

and a woman who just got her hair did for the third time, suffering a cold,needs to look her best before a conference she was looking forward to attending leaving the house for a 14km walk and not having time for fresh nail polish and getting her makeup and hair done and outfit organised plus the usual routine of getting kids awake,dressed and fed... I mean really do the defence think that any reasonable jury would believe yep,totally went for a long walk, totally took her own life,totally had an accident. Yeah no.

Oh yeah and totally went for a long walk in the dark without her mobile phone when the night is dark and full of terrors.

 

[Total]

Carmel Ritchie, on the stand on the 16th of June as per Kate Kyriacou
'Gerard listed his achievements rather than providing personal details'......
We are all feeling your pain now Ms Ritchie!!

I am also sure that Gerred told either a counsellor or a psychologist direct that he wanted out of the marriage, as he had told Allison on their wedding anniversary two years previous, but I have not been able to find the link. It flies totally in the face of his so called wanting to build a future together after 'the' infidelities.

 

[Neuromancer]

Precisely!

I wonder when the Maxolon was last filled and why it was taken? There's no known link of an interaction with amoxil but there IS a link between Maxolon and Zoloft (sertraline) contributing to serotonin syndrome. For those interested,please Google. Phone issues here and still trying to figure out functions.

Maxalon's a common drug used for nausea/vomiting from any cause and handy to have around. Sort of thing you'd have in a travel kit, or be given for a whole range of conditions that involve nausea. Handy for hangovers

Only taken as needed mostly, but you could be on it regularly if you had some chronic nausea (eg from chemotherapy, opiate pain treatment, chronic gastro-intestinal problems). The other regular use I've seen is for some stomach/digestive issues, where it's used to speed up the movement of food from stomach to the small intestine.

But really - it's so common and general that the only thing i'd deduce from its presence in a medicine cabinet is "someone had this prescribed for nausea at some point"

 

[Jaguar88]

"The infidelity" Own it GBC! Call it for what it was "My infidelity"

Distancing himself from it, trying to make it sound like an unfortunate disease over which he had no control - just call it for what it is, tomcatting all over the western suburbs

 

[squizzey1]

Organised.... that's the operative word, .. but this is Gerard Baden-Clay's event, where even the concept of organised as ordinary people understand it is in a whole other world. ..

I am firmly , in the most concrete way , convinced that Gerard actually thought and probably still thinks that he did organise it. .. one only has to look at his idea of what organised is in the realm of his business, his family, his creditors, his staff, his life as he lived it, to understand that organisation to Gerard is a matter of wild optimism and sheer rat cunning.

AND the organised affairs even in Sydney for a one night stand then organised toni to fly down probably on creditors money which he organised

 

[Tishy]

The feeling I got from Mr Byrne yesterday was they will be suggesting she floated down the creek and came to land in the spot she was found. The time lapse video was to show the amount of debris washed up and down that particular section of the creek hence how the plant matter could have been entwined in her hair.



Because we don't actually know where her body started from ( assuming it floated to its final resting place ) we don't know whether all those plants were available in the creek area to become entwined - does that make sense ?

I think they will need a lot of luck to make this fly.
The autopsy report specifically referenced the body having been placed in the position it was found shortly after death.

Does anyone who was there yesterday have any observations of the jury's or the public gallery's reactions to his story telling travelogue?

 

[wewillgetyou]

Distancing himself from it, trying to make it sound like an unfortunate disease over which he had no control - just call it for what it is, tomcatting all over the western suburbs

It's a shame he didn't just "snap out of it " like he told Alison to do with her depression :banghead:

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Or like me who has a favourite pen and will buy several of the same ones and always use those same pens for everything I write.

Adding to my last reply to this - I have a weight loss journal, I keep it in my top drawer on my bedside dresser, I have a pen in there too so that I don't have to go looking for one on weigh in day. So all entries are in the same pen. Therefore I don't find it odd at all that all entries are in the same pen.

 

[Neuromancer]

Don't forget the "we had a miscarriage" quote...

Yeah that was one of the major creep-outs of the day for me.