GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #4

[Makara]

But why would they search 61 Boscombe Road with a thermal imaging camera when the phone was never indicated as being in that area, it was just a "furphy" designed to full the defendant?

Are you suggesting Constable Thomson lied in her witness statement?

No I'm not suggesting Kellie Thomson lied in her witness statement at all. She didn't lie. She observed GBC's reaction as she is trained to do. Do you have any understanding of the cost involved in launching a police helicopter? The cost of fuel and man hours? I can assure you it is huge. And what, so the police do this simply to find a phone? I don't think so. As I said they were searching for Allison, irrespective of the phone. Read Kellie Thomson's statement if you haven't done so. It's all there.

If you go back and read the forum from the beginning you will see that the police began their search for Allison starting from the Brookfield house and expanding out to a 2km radius, which encompassed 61 Boscombe Road at the rear of the Brookfield house.

 

[FigTree]

Just reading your link to the cross examination and I realised that Mr Fuller suggests to GBC that he killed Allison in the early hours of the ( Friday) morning. I guess this fits with him smothering her while she was sleeping and not late evening on the Thursday. So maybe all the screams around 9 to 10 are red herrings. I guess it's speculation as to the timing on the prosecutions part as they don't know the details.

allioop - I think Fuller is onto something related to the timing, and your post made me think of something in regard to the early morning scenario - it relates to a witness account of of 2 cars ...

WS Post reply
A WITNESS has told police of seeing two four-wheel-drives near Kholo Creek crossing early on the day Allison Baden-Clay was reported missing.

It is alleged a white four-wheel-drive didn't have its headlights on, only parking lights, and was closely tailing a smaller, blue four-wheel-drive at about 4am on April 20.

The witness told of noticing the vehicles at Anstead in Brisbane's west - within 2km of where the 43-year-old mother of three's body was found 10 days later. Police said Mrs Baden-Clay was reported missing by her husband Gerard at 7.30am Friday after she failed to return from her usual morning walk.

then this....

Day 12
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 23s
Gerard says on one occasion he and Toni drove together, other times in convoy to "a secluded spot". #badenclay
_________________
"Did we drive together? We did drive together. We would go in Toni's car, because it was less conspicuous. Did you have dinner? One occasion Were we scared of being seen. I was terrified of being seen.
-----
He answered that they did drive together, went in Toni's car, had dinner once, he was terrified of being seen #badenclay
__________________

On Day 12 of the trial, these comments above by GBC regarding what he does to avoid detection, how he does it, and his motivation raised my suspicion.
He is not above using others vehicles to avoid detection - purposefully and with intention.
He can also manipulate others (in the example case, Toni) to follow his instruction knowing that the purpose is to not get caught. and that it can be easily camouflaged and made hard to prove if questioned.
His fear of being seen leads him to behave deceptively and manipulate others to cover his tracks.

in regard to the screams..
It may not have been Allison but,
Another possibility is that at a meetup. the scream came from another person who has just seen a dead/limp body in the back of a car.

.

 

[FigTree]

Possibly, or it could have been just to fit with the script of going for a walk (because she always took her phone).

What doesn't fit for me in regard to the walk and the phone, are the pants Allison was wearing when found.

No pockets - So she was going to carry that phone the entire walk?
I don't think so. (JMO)

 

[marlywings]

WS Post reply
A WITNESS has told police of seeing two four-wheel-drives near Kholo Creek crossing early on the day Allison Baden-Clay was reported missing.

It is alleged a white four-wheel-drive didn't have its headlights on, only parking lights, and was closely tailing a smaller, blue four-wheel-drive at about 4am on April 20.

The witness told of noticing the vehicles at Anstead in Brisbane's west - within 2km of where the 43-year-old mother of three's body was found 10 days later. Police said Mrs Baden-Clay was reported missing by her husband Gerard at 7.30am Friday after she failed to return from her usual morning walk.[/IMG]

.

I'm thinking if those sightings had any relevance to the case the witness would have been called up?? They may have been ruled out as being unconnected as that's all we've heard about them.

 

[toe]

Yes odd that he was unwilling to detail this walk and the timing timing timing

Oh good grief a touch of convenient Alzheimers NBC. :fence:

 

[MRSA]

No I'm not suggesting Kellie Thomson lied in her witness statement at all. She didn't lie.

If you accept that Thomson's witness statement was true, then you must accept the veracity of her statements that she "observed a blue dot on the phone where it indicated Allison's mobile phone was" and that "we attended 61 Boscombe Road Brookfield, where a search was conducted ... Inspector Dal'Osto would ensure each person was quiet and all torch lights were off and would call Allison Baden-Clay's mobile to assist the helicopter attempting to locate her phone".

 

[marlywings]

No I'm not suggesting Kellie Thomson lied in her witness statement at all. She didn't lie. She observed GBC's reaction as she is trained to do. Do you have any understanding of the cost involved in launching a police helicopter? The cost of fuel and man hours? I can assure you it is huge. And what, so the police do this simply to find a phone? I don't think so. As I said they were searching for Allison, irrespective of the phone. Read Kellie Thomson's statement if you haven't done so. It's all there.

If you go back and read the forum from the beginning you will see that the police began their search for Allison starting from the Brookfield house and expanding out to a 2km radius, which encompassed 61 Boscombe Road at the rear of the Brookfield house.

Yep in those early days I think there were quite a few helicopters involved in the search. TV station helicopters were also doing their part.

There was a police helicopter with infrared available so that was used to try locate the phone as well as searching for Allison.

Text copied from Constable Kellie Thomson's statement....

34. Later that evening, I printed a map of the location of where I saw the Blue do from the application of find my friends on the defendant's phone and we attended 61 Boscombe Road Brookfield, where a search was conducted. During this search I recall having the assistance of a helicopter that was equipped with a heat light. Whilst doing the search we all separated around the property and Inspector Dal'Osto would ensure each person was quiet and all torch lights were off and would call Allison BADEN_CLAY'S mobile to assist the helicopter attempting to locate her phone.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

 

[FigTree]

I'm thinking if those sightings had any relevance to the case the witness would have been called up?? They may have been ruled out as being unconnected as that's all we've heard about them.

True marlywings
For me the idea of GBC's purposeful 'convoy's with Toni, and driving to secluded spots, travelling in other peoples cars didn't come out until Day 12. There may have been no relevant connection at the time the witness spoke to Police.

I think even if the witness statement about the two 4 wheel drive cars is unfounded and not connected, it raises my awareness of the type of calculations GBC went to to disguise his deceptive behavior - especially about the cars and transporting from one place to another.

It also makes me think of the reason he used for driving Allison's Captiva on the morning of her disappearance.
If it was to remove the body from the house
If it was to cover the warm engine
If it was to look for Allison after his father arrived to look after the children?

.. he and Toni drove together, other times in convoy to "a secluded spot".
We would go in Toni's car, because it was less conspicuous.
Were we scared of being seen.
I was terrified of being seen

.

JMO

 

[Flabbergasted]

Back here after real life taking over for a few days.

The only thing that pokes a hole in the conference being the catalyst theory for me is that Toni and Allison had run into each other at the gym and there was no confrontation then. Toni had been trying to keep her trainer talking so that she wouldn't have to walk directly past Allison. I don't believe either woman would have been undignified enough to initiate a confrontation at the conference. That was actually the one part of Todd Fuller's cross that didn't have me on eggshells. I didn't think it sounded like a realistic supposition.

I agree. Gerard's claim that Allison was not confrontational strikes me as true, for exactly the reasons you say. She froze when she saw Toni at the gym. If she had wanted to confront Toni, it would not have been hard for Alison to get her number as she was in real estate too, and call her. Obviously I didn't know Allison well, but she sure doesn't seem the sort to want to get into a ***** slap at a conference

I'm disappointed GBC wasn't hammered harder on the money. I think that's the weak spot. I'm back at my original theory that Allison was to theoretically go missing en route to the conference and her unknown meet up arrangement with Kate Rankin stuffed up GBC's timeline.

I agree with this too. One of GBC's earliest apparent episodes where he spoke first and then thought better of it was when he mentioned the call from KR about meeting up to travel to the conference together. I have always wondered if he found a text on Allison's phone or saw a missed call at 6 or so in the morning to Allison. This would explain the 3 second call to KR's number. He's gone, Who just rang her phone at this hour, panicking he calls the number and finds it is KR. It is then he realises his initial plan to go to work and make out he thought Allison was at the conference is not going to work because Kate will be missing her too early. In the panicked moment he decides to make the call to the police. I would not be surprised if he still had Allisons phone in his pocket, not knowing what to do with it and thinking he would just keep it on him till he thought of a plan. But the situation catapulted out of his control, escalating way too early and then he was stuck with the phone he had to dispose of. it was an error, either way, walking or suicidal, there was no reasonable reason for the phone to go missing.



I also think GBC thinks he did well on the stand. Why oh why he made the completely unnecessary admission that he'd been with even more women is beyond me. To me, that smacked of "look what else I've gotten away with."

I agree with all that you say. When a a master manipulator and liar has the control arrested from him as happened when Todd Fuller launched a barrage of humiliating questions at him in public, GBC wanted to show everyone he had the power not Todd. He was willing to sacrifice the whole persona of remorseful husband tricked into affairs by announcing casually the number of women I went to for sex. using terms that imply the most meaningless and exploiting use of women for sex. He was, without knowing it, taking all power back even if it harmed him to shout I have the power again Todd! and you see I will control what information is and isnt discussed here. This mean ego maniac was feeling humiliated and cornered and he spat back.

And finally, what I dont know is why he just didnt stop Allison from going to the conference, A master liar knows how to do it. Oh Al, I just got a message that your registration payment didn't go through, bad luck but you can go next year. Or he could fake illness, or cut himself dangerously with a razor and let himself near bleed to death to keep her home or pretend one of the kids was really distressed about flashbacks she had been having of sitting on a couch with her mother all day for the first year of her life. Gerard was mean mean mean and he knew how to work Allisons kindness as well as the things she beat herself up for. He could have stopped her going. No guys something else happened that night, something so left of field no amount of guessing will explain. He sure as hell killed Allison and he sure as hell has found a way to reconcile in his mind that it was the right thing to do

This is what happens when lurkers who have been here since day one start posting. I will likely throw the whole new software platform out internationally upsetting people everywhere but mostly people in australia and south africa

 

[marlywings]

Making a note here to all...

WS is a discussion forum in which we welcome all members old & new alike.

Whether you have been here 10years or 10mins, we don't allow members to tell others what to do or how to post.

If you don't wish to view posts made by another member please utilize your ignore feature.

 

[FigTree]

I also think GBC thinks he did well on the stand. Why oh why he made the completely unnecessary admission that he'd been with even more women is beyond me. To me, that smacked of "look what else I've gotten away with."

I smirked when I saw he had admitted to the other women.
I thought that possibly
Someone else (or more than one person) has come forward to say that they had been one of those 'other women'.
... if he denied having sex with the 'other women', he could be proven wrong.
... He admitted it amongst other questioning so as to avoid further questioning if possible.
... he was the one in control of that information.
... It made him look 'honest' :facepalm:
... he was hiding something by bringing about the very thing he feared being questioned further about.
... GBC did not know how much information the Prosecution had on 'the additional other women and sex'

and what ever other reason why he might have mentioned it - which could be anything.
But I think he did it to further his advantage or to deflect.
Either way I don't think he thought about how that is going to sound in the summing up at the end of the case by Fuller.

.

 

[BreakingNews]

The initial suspicion looks to be it just seemed strange GBC would take the less accessible car, and that it was backed it. Further suspicion would be:
• the captiva was taken to hide his tracks the night before - i.e. he could have parked it on the edge of the property during the night to avoid waking the children - he then needed to reposition it back to normal first thing.
• why would he take his wife's car if he was expecting her to turn up - urgently needing her car to drive to Taringa? He knew Allison refused to use his car. It shows he was not thinking as if Allison was really missing.

I do not recall any questioning under oath to OBW or NBC about where the captiva was when they arrived that morning - anyone?

Catching up on the day. It was always my understanding that Allison's car was reversed in that night; however in court last Wednesday GBC said Allison never reversed it in as she said it was easier for her and the girls to get in/out when the vehicle was parked nose in. GBC said it was only he who reversed in.

 

[toe]

Perhaps Allison was ringing Toni, from her phone, Gerard knew and Toni was about to pick up. Toni did say that she half expected Allison to ring her one day to confront her, and had her number in her phone so she could be prepared, but had recently deleted it.
Perhaps that is when Gerard hit her in the mouth, chipped her tooth, sent the phone flying, picked up a cushion ...
He is so intent on saying that Allison was non confrontational. Over and over he says that.

This is exactly what I see has happened.

 

[BJsleuth]

Wasn't doesn't fit for me in regard to the walk and the phone, are the pants Allison was wearing when found.

No pockets - So she was going to carry that phone the entire walk?
I don't think so. (JMO)

I didn't know whether the jacket had pockets. Can only guess. I agree if I don't have a pocket, I leave the phone at home.

 

[Liadan]

I agree with all that you say. When a a master manipulator and liar has the control arrested from him as happened when Todd Fuller launched a barrage of humiliating questions at him in public, GBC wanted to show everyone he had the power not Todd. He was willing to sacrifice the whole persona of remorseful husband tricked into affairs by announcing casually the number of women I went to for sex. using terms that imply the most meaningless and exploiting use of women for sex. He was, without knowing it, taking all power back even if it harmed him to shout I have the power again Todd! and you see I will control what information is and isnt discussed here. This mean ego maniac was feeling humiliated and cornered and he spat back.

And finally, what I dont know is why he just didnt stop Allison from going to the conference, A master liar knows how to do it. Oh Al, I just got a message that your registration payment didn't go through, bad luck but you can go next year. Or he could fake illness, or cut himself dangerously with a razor and let himself near bleed to death to keep her home or pretend one of the kids was really distressed about flashbacks she had been having of sitting on a couch with her mother all day for the first year of her life. Gerard was mean mean mean and he knew how to work Allisons kindness as well as the things she beat herself up for. He could have stopped her going. No guys something else happened that night, something so left of field no amount of guessing will explain. He sure as hell killed Allison and he sure as hell has found a way to reconcile in his mind that it was the right thing to do

This is what happens when lurkers who have been here since day one start posting. I will likely throw the whole new software platform out internationally upsetting people everywhere but mostly people in australia and south africa

I would be expecting that Allison had fiscal control of her little empire at the office and probably made these reservations herself. I don't think GBC would have been pro-active in helping Allison make a working concern of his business. He would merely claim the accolade for finally getting things running when so many had failed before him. And Allison would have been so happy with that! ONLY MY OPINION!

 

[BJsleuth]

Allison's phone accessed the Fig tree pocket tower, connected to the internet at 6:32am and stayed connected for 13 hours. It was simply to give GBC an alibi of sorts. He was at home right?

 

[toe]

Would GBC have known that the body would need to be exposed to the elements for a while to destroy evidence? That's the sort of thing most people would have to google and the forensic computer team would have flagged any suspicious internet activity.

I think he's been incredibly lucky for the most part, except for the scratches. And it bothers me. He just doesn't seem cunning enough to know how to minimise physical evidence.

Unless of course you had a friend who was a Doctor to quizz about such things.:jail:

 

[AAAA]

This possibility was canvassed by Fuller whilst GBC was on the stand. It adds to motive IMO.

Perhaps TM had forwarded the emails to Allison, she showed It to GBC, they fought, he killed her, then had to get rid of the phone knowing what was on it...

 

[AAAA]

I had the board game and always played as Penelope Pitstop

Yep! I always wanted to be Penelope Pittstop! And Geanie! And Samantha Stevens!

 

[LadyBird1]

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Allisons phone was in Gerard pocket the whole morning of the reported disappearance. It was safe and sound. Gerard could check that Allison's phone had received his texts that would be really positive for him. I can just see him saying 'great that text has come through' what should I say next.....

Then after GBC had called his Dad over he would have given it to NBC. Much later it was disposed somewhere far away probably by NBC.

The thing that gets me is that there is no hint of a use of prepaids. This is common element between people who want to hide things particularly affiars. I can't believe GBC was so brazenly cunning that he wrote all his messages on his iPhone. One slip up to Toni or Allison or the many women and he is revealed.

I once wrote a message to my husband and sent it by accident to my youngest son. I was telling hubby how badly behaved my youngest son was at sport. It was an inane message just relating that I was so angry I could have swung him around by his hair. I ended up getting my older son to delete the conversation on the younger ones phone, cos it was simply me expressing my anger but I didn't want the youngest to read it even tho it was funny and moderately innane. This was harmless in the context of a mistake. The stakes were MUCH higher with GBC and his sexual encounters and dalliances!

I wonder if Allison's phone was in G's pocket the whole time? I wonder if the blue dot showing so close at 61 Boscombe Road was actually a few metres off accuracy, as Liadon has suggested: in his pocket. Oh...... ?
PS Though I do not understand all this phone tech stuff, I do know that the Satellite tracking device on the farm tractor may be off by considerable metres, say 10 to 20metres. Useful, but not 100% accurate.