General Gun Violence/Gun Control #2

[Lexiintoronto]

2021 Statsistics.

“The U.S. has the 28th-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000.”

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/31/1209683893/how-the-u-s-gun-violence-death-rate-compares-with-the-rest-of-the-world#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20the%2028th,had%200.013%20deaths%20per%20100%2C000.

This is what the conversation is about. Gun violence and how to stop it.

We’re struggling with the same issue but Canada has made historic firearm bans introduced in 2020. That was the year of our deadliest mass shooting (22 killed).

 

[worm]

2021 Statsistics.

“The U.S. has the 28th-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000.”

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/31/1209683893/how-the-u-s-gun-violence-death-rate-compares-with-the-rest-of-the-world#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20the%2028th,had%200.013%20deaths%20per%20100%2C000.

This is what the conversation is about. Gun violence and how to stop it.

We’re struggling with the same issue but Canada has made historic firearm bans introduced in 2020. That was the year of our deadliest mass shooting (22 killed).

I think way too many people here in the US just have a casual way of thinking about firearms and guns being the first go to with any conflict adds to our count a lot.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

2021 Statsistics.

“The U.S. has the 28th-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000.”

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/31/1209683893/how-the-u-s-gun-violence-death-rate-compares-with-the-rest-of-the-world#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20has%20the%2028th,had%200.013%20deaths%20per%20100%2C000.

This is what the conversation is about. Gun violence and how to stop it.

We’re struggling with the same issue but Canada has made historic firearm bans introduced in 2020. That was the year of our deadliest mass shooting (22 killed).

Enforcing the gun laws we already have would be a good start. It makes no sense to create more laws. imo It’s been said before that criminals don’t care about laws and I think that is something that most of us law abiding citizens might agree on.

 

[worm]

Enforcing the gun laws we already have would be a good start. It makes no sense to create more laws. imo It’s been said before that criminals don’t care about laws and I think that is something that most of us law abiding citizens might agree on.

Many states like SC don’t have real punitive or mandatory penalties for gun violations like they do for drug offenders. I think pointing a gun at somebody is just as bad as running meth but the sentences are nowhere close. I think we have seen too much white glove with kids getting a gun and doing harm.
Recently some kids in Oconee SC were using a gun, obviously unsupervised, and shot a man on a tractor. They charged these young kids but I haven’t heard a word about whoever owned the weapon.

 

[Cota332]

If the debate here is strictly about Gun Violence, it is massively important to understand that the largest group contributing to the statistics are suicides.
By 'largest group' I mean more than half of all gun-related deaths are particularly suicides.

Looking at the numbers, for even firearm-restrictive countries like Canada, the US suicide rate per 100,000 is not far off. We're talking single-digit differences in suicide rates.

Essentially this shows that even should firearms be effectively banned in the States, the method by which people wish to end their own lives will change, but unlikely will the rate decrease.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I think way too many people here in the US just have a casual way of thinking about firearms and guns being the first go to with any conflict adds to our count a lot.

I think that’s at the very core of the problem. I’ve seen too many videos on social media of Americans pulling out their guns at the slightest bit of conflict.

It seems to be an attitude of many. And I’ve seen responses here that state more people should carry weapons to solve the issue. It’s like the wild west. We’re supposed to have evolved since that time. It’s such a foreign concept to non-Americans.

And we have that here amongst people as well. Brute force is the solution to conflicts. The difference in part is that we’ve made it harder for the bad guys to get weapons and ammo.

Our statistics for gun violence are far lower, but it’s not because we’re nicer or have fewer bad guys. It’s because our attitudes toward firearms and our ability to obtain them are far different.

 

[Dotta]

I think that’s at the very core of the problem. I’ve seen too many videos on social media of Americans pulling out their guns at the slightest bit of conflict.

It seems to be an attitude of many. And I’ve seen responses here that state more people should carry weapons to solve the issue. It’s like the wild west. We’re supposed to have evolved since that time. It’s such a foreign concept to non-Americans.

And we have that here amongst people as well. Brute force is the solution to conflicts. The difference in part is that we’ve made it harder for the bad guys to get weapons and ammo.

Our statistics for gun violence are far lower, but it’s not because we’re nicer or have fewer bad guys. It’s because our attitudes toward firearms and our ability to obtain them are far different.

Didn't it happen in Kansas City?

Just because someone looked at someone and he didn't like it - people were hurt by crazy shooting during the Parade.

In other countries, they might have engaged in old-fashioned fight throwing punches
(and only injured themselves).

JMO

 

[Cota332]

Interestingly, the overall violent crime rate in Canada is almost four times that of the US per 100,000 and has been steadily increasing since 2014. Whereas the US violent crime rate has been declining since 2020.

US Violent Crime Rate
Canada Violent Crime Rate

 

[PrairieWind]

Um ya. Getting rid of evil by banning guns would be a great start imo.

But the US isn't going to ban guns. It can't. And that isn't how you get rid of evil anyway. Why are so many, especially young people, resorting to impulse violence?

 

[housewife]

But the US isn't going to ban guns. It can't. And that isn't how you get rid of evil anyway. Why are so many, especially young people, resorting to impulse violence?

Why can't we ban guns today? Or at least, all guns except muzzle-loading flintlock muskets, as the writers of the constitution intended?

I'm not religious and don't designate things or people as "evil" or "heavenly". I just want to get killing-tools out of the hands of people who haven't proved they can handle the responsibility. Yes, that would mean all average American civilian idiots.

 

[worm]

Why can't we ban guns today? Or at least, all guns except muzzle-loading flintlock muskets, as the writers of the constitution intended?

I'm not religious and don't designate things or people as "evil" or "heavenly". I just want to get killing-tools out of the hands of people who haven't proved they can handle the responsibility. Yes, that would mean all average American civilian idiots.

I think at this point it would be like trying to ban the wheel but I do get the point about black powder weapons. There are bans on full auto guns, bombs, and modified weapons, all of which could fall under the “Arms” catagory couldn’t they?

 

[PrairieWind]

Why can't we ban guns today? Or at least, all guns except muzzle-loading flintlock muskets, as the writers of the constitution intended?

I'm not religious and don't designate things or people as "evil" or "heavenly". I just want to get killing-tools out of the hands of people who haven't proved they can handle the responsibility. Yes, that would mean all average American civilian idiots.

Well, certainly the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to just muzzle loaders. And the overwhelming number of Americans that own firearms are responsible with them.

 

[housewife]

Well, certainly the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to just muzzle loaders.

I agree, that is currently how we interpret the law. New amendments can be made, isn't it great that the constitution is a breathing, living document?

And the overwhelming number of Americans that own firearms are responsible with them.

I think both you and I would agree that most people do not have the same standards of gun safety that we do.
The reality is, we were lucky to have a mentor in our lives to teach us how to more safely handle firearms. Most people do NOT have what we had.

Also, over half of gun deaths are suicides... Would about 27,000 suicides a year be considered "responsible" gun ownership?
...gun suicides – which historically make up the majority of gun deaths. The gun suicide rate has steadily increased, nearly uninterrupted, since 2006. In 2021 it reached the highest levels since the CDC began recording such data in 1968; and this past year, in 2022, it surpassed that record.

 

[Cota332]

I agree, that is currently how we interpret the law. New amendments can be made, isn't it great that the constitution is a breathing, living document?

I think both you and I would agree that most people do not have the same standards of gun safety that we do.
The reality is, we were lucky to have a mentor in our lives to teach us how to more safely handle firearms. Most people do NOT have what we had.

Also, over half of gun deaths are suicides... Would about 27,000 suicides a year be considered "responsible" gun ownership?
...gun suicides – which historically make up the majority of gun deaths. The gun suicide rate has steadily increased, nearly uninterrupted, since 2006. In 2021 it reached the highest levels since the CDC began recording such data in 1968; and this past year, in 2022, it surpassed that record.

Personally, I never experienced having a mentor in that regard. We didn't even have a single firearm in my household growing up, and that extends to all of my extended-familial households. My parents greatly disliked firearms, but would immediately and fiercely defend anybody's right to own and bear them. To this day, I've only been shooting with any family members maybe twice. I didn't have anyone else to 'mentor' me either; I was the first in my friends group to become a firearm owner, and was alone in a sense, in that I did not personally know any other firearm enthusiasts (at least not that they made known/public). Despite all this, I'd say I believe I have a firm grasp on firearm handling/safety - in that a mentor, in the traditional sense is no longer necessary in today's world - in this regard.

___________________

To be fair, when can we ever label a suicide as 'responsible', regardless of the method used?

Further, the article mentioned fails to account for the consistent rise in the US population; which, as evidenced here, mirrors that of the firearm-related suicide rate depicted in the article.

As posted previously, other countries, that maintain highly stringent restrictions on firearms, have very similar suicide rates - despite likely not being caused by firearms.

 

[puppylove87]

Personally, I never experienced having a mentor in that regard. We didn't even have a single firearm in my household growing up, and that extends to all of my extended-familial households. My parents greatly disliked firearms, but would immediately and fiercely defend anybody's right to own and bear them. To this day, I've only been shooting with any family members maybe twice. I didn't have anyone else to 'mentor' me either; I was the first in my friends group to become a firearm owner, and was alone in a sense, in that I did not personally know any other firearm enthusiasts (at least not that they made known/public). Despite all this, I'd say I believe I have a firm grasp on firearm handling/safety - in that a mentor, in the traditional sense is no longer necessary in today's world - in this regard.

Extremely similar background to you, except my parents weren't as principled as yours when it came to defending others' rights to protect themselves. They've thankfully completely reversed their stance and are embarrassed at how short-sighted they were in their younger years - I don't give them too hard of a time anymore. <modsnip> They realized that police only respond once a crime has been committed and that police don't have a duty to protect (see recent events in Uvalde; see also Supreme Court rulings on the matter).

I couldn't imagine being one who wants to force others to be disarmed and vulnerable - <modsnip: inflammatory>

 

[housewife]

Regarding the mass shooter in Maine:

During the Robert Card manhunt, this Army reservist had intel. He couldn't find someone to listen

Androscoggin Sheriff Deputy Matthew Noyes' testimony was part of a sweeping hearing during which the shooter's fellow Army reservists defended their efforts to get him help and follow up with local authorities.

www.mainepublic.org

At one point Mote was asked about his reaction when he learned that Card had committed the mass shooting that he and other reservists had feared.
"It broke my heart," he said while fighting back his emotions. "We gave him options, we took him to a hospital. Nobody else did that."

But they didn't take away his guns...

 

[housewife]

It's ok to disagree. I understand the Heller test, but where do we draw the line? AK-47s would not have become "common use" if they weren't so easily available in our country in the first place (legally or illegally). Which lost hair makes a man bald? Or should we be looking at the whole head?

I still shoot only for bonding time with my dad, at the club. Just target practice (and the targets are not human-shaped). We don't hunt, we don't need to.
I guess the rule he taught was: If someone can't handle a weapon responsibly, they don't get access to that weapon. Especially his Caesar Guerini.
It's pretty simple, boy-scout-level-stuff.

It scares me when people get emotional about banning guns. It's not personal. Banning guns does not force vulnerability when there are so many other tools available for self-defense. Every other country in the world figured it out, why can't we?

 

[Laughing]

Posed this question up thread, but await answers.

There was a gunfight in Sacramento, California 4/3/22 involving 6 identified shooters, 6 deaths, and multiple injuries:

CA - Six Dead, Dozen Injured in Mass Shooting - Sacramento - 3 April 2022

. - CA - Six Dead, at Least Ten Injured in Mass Shooting - - Sacramento - - Sunday, 3 April 2022 - 1)) ABC News: 6 killed, at least 10 injured in mass shooting in Sacramento, California: Police 2)) NBC News: Sacramento shooting: 6 dead, 10 injured 3)) Google™ Supplements & Updates...

www.websleuths.com

California has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the USA.

The court records show that not one of these shooters was legally able to possess a firearm.

The LE count of number of shots fired in this event indicate that at least one of the shooters had either 2 magazines OR an illegal-in-California large-capacity magazine.

6 felons, willing to violate California law by possessing a firearm.
Likely, at least one willing to further violate California law with an illegal large-capacity magazine.

Willing to violate the law.

Your task is to explain your proposed legislation to keep firearms OUT of the hand (and waistband) of those willing to violate gun laws.

All I've read is calls for a national ban on firearms. imho, shooters like the 6 in Sacramento would be willing to violate that law.

Waiting to hear your solution to this problem with not just gun violence but all violence -- craft the law to restrict those already willing to violate any law.

Thanks!

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Posed this question up thread, but await answers.

There was a gunfight in Sacramento, California 4/3/22 involving 6 identified shooters, 6 deaths, and multiple injuries:

CA - Six Dead, Dozen Injured in Mass Shooting - Sacramento - 3 April 2022

. - CA - Six Dead, at Least Ten Injured in Mass Shooting - - Sacramento - - Sunday, 3 April 2022 - 1)) ABC News: 6 killed, at least 10 injured in mass shooting in Sacramento, California: Police 2)) NBC News: Sacramento shooting: 6 dead, 10 injured 3)) Google™ Supplements & Updates...

www.websleuths.com

California has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the USA.

The court records show that not one of these shooters was legally able to possess a firearm.

The LE count of number of shots fired in this event indicate that at least one of the shooters had either 2 magazines OR an illegal-in-California large-capacity magazine.

6 felons, willing to violate California law by possessing a firearm.
Likely, at least one willing to further violate California law with an illegal large-capacity magazine.

Willing to violate the law.

Your task is to explain your proposed legislation to keep firearms OUT of the hand (and waistband) of those willing to violate gun laws.

All I've read is calls for a national ban on firearms. imho, shooters like the 6 in Sacramento would be willing to violate that law.

Waiting to hear your solution to this problem with not just gun violence but all violence -- craft the law to restrict those already willing to violate any law.

Thanks!

jmho ymmv lrr

There’s not one piece of legislation that can resolve the issue. You have to use a multifaceted approach that includes enforcing current laws and introducing others. Then also look at addressing why the core issues of crime exist: poverty, lack of police presence, lack of access to healthcare, etc. I’d add that in the US your attitude towards firearm ownership and use needs to change, imo.

Reducing the pool of firearms and restricting access may be part of the solution. I’ve mentioned this article here before:

‘Mayor Aftab Pureval said 40% of the illegal weapons on Cincinnati streets have been stolen from cars.’

'Don't leave it in the car': City leaders warn gun owners about thefts from cars

Mayor Aftab Pureval said 40% of the illegal weapons on Cincinnati streets have been stolen from cars.

www.wcpo.com

Fix that issue and they’ll see a large drop in the number of firearms that get into the hands of criminals.

IMO

 

[Cota332]

‘Mayor Aftab Pureval said 40% of the illegal weapons on Cincinnati streets have been stolen from cars.’

Fix that issue and they’ll see a large drop in the number of firearms that get into the hands of criminals.

sbm

Fair. Firearms really ought not be left unsecured and unattended under any circumstances. Doing so goes against elementary firearm safety basics. While I'm personally fairly intolerant to legislation, one concerning unattended vehicle storage is one that I can envision myself eventually supporting, provided the bill does not extend beyond its intended purpose.