George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #2

[iluvmua]

Well, he called the cops on him, began to pursue him when he ran, and muttered about people like him always getting away in a frustrated manner. Safe to say he did not want Martin to get away.

Where's the evidence to suggest that? Because Trayvon was shot?

Trayvon was found 70 yards north of his destination, which is about the length of a football field.

He was a former football player, he could have covered that much ground in under a minute.

and be home before George even got off the phone.

Martin did get away and then either hid or came back.

GIRLFRIEND: I said, ‘Keep running.’ He said he ain’t gonna run. ‘Cause he said he is right by his father’s house.

<modsnip>

If he was right by his father's house then why was he found 70 yards north of where his father was staying?

 

[jojomonkey]

I don't think he wanted him to get away before police arrived and was just trying to keep him in sight. I don't believe he was pursuing him trying to corner him or hold him. I think he was just trying to see where he was going to alert police.

I agree he did not want to lose sight of him and I agree he wasn't going to detain him. But again, why did he want to keep him in sight? What did TM do?

Based on the pictures, GZ's truck was parked quite a distance from where TM's body lie.

 

[Chris_Texas]

A few random points:

1. There is no evidence that GZ was severely beaten. He was probably struck once on the nose. Zimmerman has no reported guarding injuries, and TM has no damage to his hands, wrists, or elbows. In short, there is nothing to suggest that Martin was striking Zimmerman repeatedly at all. No evidence, other than the testimony of the defendant -- a known liar who has changed his story multiple times.

2. There is no evidence that Martin was repeatedly ramming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. First, they weren't on or even near the sidewalk. Second, Zimmerman's head does not show the injuries you might expect if this had happened. Third, no blood was found on the sidewalk. Fourth, Zimmerman was bald and it was wet -- making any effort to grab his head difficult or impossible. Fifth, Martin had no blood or DNA from Zimmerman on his hands.

3. Zimmerman's version of events has changed multiple times during the course of all this. Not minor points, or things misremembered, but major aspects of his story. This should be kept in mind when evaluating the few simple points he has stuck with.

4. Zimmerman's story does not match the physical evidence or the witness statements.

5. Zimmerman's call to 911 contains defamatory statements about Martin that Zimmerman has never justified or explained, and which do not seem to match what we now know about the victim.

6. There is, in my mind, a very real question as to whether or not Zimmerman's repeated stalking of this kid automatically negates any claim to self-defense.

7. The bullet trajectory is a big deal. The fact that it was a straight through shot, front to back, indicates that Zimmerman must have had enough separation to position to gun between them -- and this ignores completely the problem of drawing it from that position in the first place. If Zimmerman's story were true I would expect to see an entry wound in the side or abdomen.

IMO

 

[MeeBee]

Well, he called the cops on him, began to pursue him when he ran, and muttered about people like him always getting away in a frustrated manner. Safe to say he did not want Martin to get away.

Where's the evidence to suggest that? Because Trayvon was shot?

Trayvon was found 70 yards north of his destination, which is about the length of a football field.

He was a former football player, he could have covered that much ground in under a minute.

and be home before George even got off the phone.

Martin did get away and then either hid or came back.

GIRLFRIEND: I said, &#8216;Keep running.&#8217; He said he ain&#8217;t gonna run. &#8216;Cause he said he is right by his father&#8217;s house.

<modsnip>

If he was right by his father's house then why was he found 70 yards north of where his father was staying?

I think you are misunderstanding me. He didn't want Trayvon to get away because he thought he was up to no good and it frustrated him when he started running. Is that not a fair assumption. It's the same feeling I get when I see someone speed-demoning down the highway. I'm not gonna chase them or pursue them or even call the cops on them. But I am going to be hoping they are caught and properly punished for their behavior. Zimmerman was sick of the burglars in his neighborhood always getting away and was frustrated that this one might be too. I never said he was chasing him.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

A few random points:

1. There is no evidence that GZ was severely beaten. He was probably struck once on the nose. Zimmerman has no reported guarding injuries, and TM has no damage to his hands, wrists, or elbows. In short, there is nothing to suggest that Martin was striking Zimmerman repeatedly at all. No evidence, other than the testimony of the defendant -- a known liar who has changed his story multiple times.

2. There is no evidence that Martin was repeatedly ramming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. First, they weren't on or even near the sidewalk. Second, Zimmerman's head does not show the injuries you might expect if this had happened. Third, no blood was found on the sidewalk. Fourth, Zimmerman was bald and it was wet -- making any effort to grab his head difficult or impossible. Fifth, Martin had no blood or DNA from Zimmerman on his hands.

3. Zimmerman's version of events has changed multiple times during the course of all this. Not minor points, or things misremembered, but major aspects of his story. This should be kept in mind when evaluating the few simple points he has stuck with.

4. Zimmerman's story does not match the physical evidence or the witness statements.

5. Zimmerman's call to 911 contains defamatory statements about Martin that Zimmerman has never justified or explained, and which do not seem to match what we now know about the victim.

6. There is, in my mind, a very real question as to whether or not Zimmerman's repeated stalking of this kid automatically negates any claim to self-defense.

IMO

BBM, I have to disagree. They showed injuries to his head today in court. He was battered and bruised, had huge lumps on his head and abrasions all over his head. IT was not just in the back but had large lumps on either side of his head.

I disagree that his story changed or that the evidence does not match up because it does. So far what he says happened fits what is coming into evidence.

 

[legalmania]

I don't think he wanted him to get away before police arrived and was just trying to keep him in sight. I don't believe he was pursuing him trying to corner him or hold him. I think he was just trying to see where he was going to alert police.

Then how do you explain the bullet hole in his chest?

 

[polleypockets]

Just because someone is charged does not make them guilty.

AS far as TM goes, I think he called himself a .

but isn't that based on inernet postings?? kinda like what all kids put up?? imo this should be based on what happened that night - and not based on 17 year olds posting on fb or twitter - as same that it should not include a seven year old problem w/ the law for GZ - it should be the same for both sides imo :twocents:

 

[PaintingAnemone]

I don't believe GZ did either of those thing and I don't think it's a 2nd degree murder case at all. I do not believe he intended to kill him, I think it was voluntary manslaughter given the circumstances. Intent to do harm but not necessarily to kill. Things got out of hand, but I continue to blame GZ for that.

The circumstances were brought about by GZ. He was determined not to let TM get away, even though he never saw the kid do anything other than walk around "looking suspicious" which is completely subjective. Bad choices, stupid decisions - but I don't believe GZ should walk off scott free either. He made huge errors in judgment and should be held accountable.

Good comment, and I agree with this to an extent. GZ's actions and poor decisions on that evening both set the stage for the situation, and directly led to its escalation. He had every opportunity to call a halt, and continued with poor decisions at pretty much every turn. I don't think he got out of the car intending to shoot someone, but he was certainly prepared to do so, and eventually did. Was he following the boy? Yes, he was. Did Z confront Martin? Well, to believe otherwise would be to think that someone who was afraid and running away suddenly grew balls the size of Kansas and confronted a strange man, so I'm going to say yes, Z did initiate the confrontation, but that's just my gut talking.

Who started the fight? No one here knows. People who want to see the victim unfavorably will insist it must have been him. People who follow the trail of Zimmerman's poor decision-making up to that point will probably think it was him. I fall into the latter camp, because Zimmerman's obvious lack of fear, his ability to respond with deadly force, and his vigilante behavior make me think he felt emboldened to try and detain Martin. Things all slide downhill from there, and a boy ended up dead.

But that's what makes this 2nd degree for me. It doesn't need to be premeditated. It does, however, need to be the result from an assault in which the death of the victim was a distinct possibility. That's textbook 2nd degree, and it's what happened when Zimmerman went after Martin while carrying a gun. Stalking is threatening. Grabbing someone (as though to detain him) is assault. If they fight back, and end up dead, that's grounds for 2nd degree. Z had the ability to take a life, and he knew it. Martin didn't.

 

[Schuby]

There is no evidence to suggest he did not want martin to get away.

Why would he be calling police at all if he didn't care about them at least questioning TM?

Why would he be destraught that these people always get away?

 

[lil_buddy]

http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I agree he did not want to lose sight of him and I agree he wasn't going to detain him. But again, why did he want to keep him in sight? What did TM do?

Based on the pictures, GZ's truck was parked quite a distance from where TM's body lie.

They had break ins, TM was seen loitering in the complex I think he just wanted to police to be able to talk to him.

 

[dani]

That would be Georges bestest buddy Frank Taffee. Trayvon was NOT committing a crime. GZ did NOT see him committing a crime. George did NOT see him breaking and entering. GZ seen him walking home from a 7-11. Supposedly standing on his buddys/Taffee lawn.

I'm doing my best to try to see GZ as "innocent until proven guilty", but after watching/hearing Frank Taffee something my grandmother used to say keeps running thru my head. "Birds of a feather flock together". I see a rude, super opinionated bully in Frank Taffee.

I need to learn more about GZ to know if Grandma was right!:seeya:

P.S. It isn't helping that I also keep wondering, "Why did GZ need a gun to go to Target?"

 

[iluvmua]

Then how do you explain the bullet hole in his chest?

Because GZ was having his head bashed into the pavement and he had no way of retreating so he used his weapon to fire causing the bullet hole to the chest.

He used his weapon as a last resort when people would not come out and help him when he was screaming for help.

 

[gxm]

A few random points:

1. There is no evidence that GZ was severely beaten. He was probably struck once on the nose. Zimmerman has no reported guarding injuries, and TM has no damage to his hands, wrists, or elbows. In short, there is nothing to suggest that Martin was striking Zimmerman repeatedly at all. No evidence, other than the testimony of the defendant -- a known liar who has changed his story multiple times.

2. There is no evidence that Martin was repeatedly ramming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. First, they weren't on or even near the sidewalk. Second, Zimmerman's head does not show the injuries you might expect if this had happened. Third, no blood was found on the sidewalk. Fourth, Zimmerman was bald and it was wet -- making any effort to grab his head difficult or impossible. Fifth, Martin had no blood or DNA from Zimmerman on his hands.

3. Zimmerman's version of events has changed multiple times during the course of all this. Not minor points, or things misremembered, but major aspects of his story. This should be kept in mind when evaluating the few simple points he has stuck with.

4. Zimmerman's story does not match the physical evidence or the witness statements.

5. Zimmerman's call to 911 contains defamatory statements about Martin that Zimmerman has never justified or explained, and which do not seem to match what we now know about the victim.

6. There is, in my mind, a very real question as to whether or not Zimmerman's repeated stalking of this kid automatically negates any claim to self-defense.

IMO

With all due respect, did you watch the trial today? The crime scene photographer (the state's witness, FWIW) confirmed GZ's injuries. The lumps and abrasions from having his head hit the sidewalk were clearly evident in the photos she had taken.

Further the defense asked if luminol (or similar substance) was used to detect blood. The answer was no. LE used only flashlights, in the rain on a dark night, to search for blood evidence.

 

[Maryann123]

maybe not "hiding" but cutting through yards and going via underhangs is a little sketchy, especially when he is not a familiar face in this neighborhood.

George Zimmerman says, he (TM) got away, they always get away. That is not a quote, just close enough. I have to assume TM is either hiding, or circling back. I also assume both GZ and TM had every right to be out in the neighborhood. I assume they both had every right to be watching/following the other one. GZ called 911 to voice his concern about a suspicious person in the neighborhood. TM had the right to call 911 if he was concerned. The question is, who was the attacker? I understand people saying GZ shouldn't have gotten out of his vehicle. Shouldn't TM have gone home instead of approaching GZ and asking him why he was following him? According to TM's girlfriend, that's what happened. If GZ had stayed in his car, this would have never happened. If TM had just kept walking home, this would have never happened. The only debate I see is deciding who started throwing punches. If someone attacked me, and I had a gun, they would have never put a scratch on me. Trust me, I'd shoot first! I can't help but believe that if GZ just wanted to shoot TM, he would have done it before TM ever put a mark on him. I don't think he would have called police if he just wanted to shoot somebody. Even the fact that GZ has made numerous 911 calls isn't alarming to me. All these calls, and no violence on GZ's part? It all comes down to who attacked who! The argument that GZ had no right to follow TM doesn't hold water. They both had a right to be out in the neighborhood whether they were walking in the same direction or not.

 

[Chris_Texas]

No. He has always told the same story..

Not even close.

 

[Bernina]

So what would you do if you didn't have a round in the chamber and one of your hands or arms was rendered disabled? Just genuinely curious.

I carry a revolver, S & W .357, FMJ hollow points, so not an issue :floorlaugh: I use various pistols when I target practice or have to put down an animal, use the Mossberg 590 when I want to scare away predators, or rifles if I want to cap 'em.

 

[Hatfield]

todays last witness mentioned 'she grabbed the dog and went up stairs'. Another witness was walking a dog.
My question is 'why weren't these dogs barking at the noise?'

I know its hard to believe, but not all dogs bark at strangers or commotions.

I have a very meek and mild mannered dog and when a stranger comes to the door, he goes and hides. Not kidding. :floorlaugh:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Not even close.

Show me. Show me the evidence.

 

[iluvmua]

I know its hard to believe, but not all dogs bark at strangers or commotions.

I have a very meek and mild mannered dog and when a stranger comes to the door, he goes and hides. Not kidding. :floorlaugh:

plus, one of the dogs got away and the then 13 year old had to go after it.