Gerard Baden Clay's murder appeal

Discussion in 'Allison Baden-Clay of Australia' started by marlywings, Feb 27, 2015.

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  1. Couldbe

    Couldbe Well-Known Member

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    To my mind, the hypothetical scenario put forth by the Defence to the Appeal Judges is a ‘case’ of “he could’ve if he could’ve said this” (not that he would’ve).

    i.e. if he was charged with Manslaughter / and not Murder.

    Gerard did say, when asked during the trial …. No, I did not kill my wife; but had he been asked ‘did your wife die during an altercation between you?’ on oath, he may have had to answer ‘Yes’.

    Would that have amounted to an admission to Manslaughter?

    ….and at that point, all of his many his lies and claims for insurance would have exposed him to……….. Spur of the moment Murder (as Alioop has suggested) …… not just panic.

    Would this be a case of ‘splitting hairs’?

    JMO The Defence's Appeal shouldn't have changed the verdict, because his killing denial was not believed by the Jury, and because the evidence relating to all of his many his lies and claims for insurance remains.
     


  2. JCB

    JCB Active Member

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    What a lot of people forget or simply don't understand (understandable given the media hysteria) is that the burden of proving intent rests entirely with the prosecution, there is no obligation on the part of the defence to put forward any alternative theories. It is then left entirely to the jury to decide whether or not that they are satisfied that the ONLY reasonable inference that can be drawn from the evidence presented at trial.

    The fact that the defence did not put forward an accidental death theory at trial means nothing, the jury still has the responsibility to consider any and all possible alternatives that may be consistent with the evidence.

    Yes, Gerard lied (probably many times) but did the prosecution satisfactorily prove beyond reasonable doubt that this could NOT have been the result of an accident and subsequent panic? You could put forward the argument that a person who accidentally killed another would not go to such lengths to conceal the truth but the fact is that it happens more often than you might imagine, I can recall several QLD cases off the top of my head.

    While the rejection of the no case submission was not a ground of appeal, the unsafe and unsatisfactory verdict ground was so similar as to be virtually the same thing. Thus (in my opinion) the QCA tacitly conceded that the no case submission should have been successful as an inference could be drawn that while Gerard was responsible for killing Allison, he did so without the essential element of intent. Without explicitly saying it was the case, the QCA have inferred that Justice Byrne erred and the jury should never have been given the opportunity to convict Gerard of murder. In saying that, it's hard to be critical of Justice Byrne as he had literally a matter of minutes in which to make a decision whereas the QCA had the benefit of several months to mull over the evidence.

    I also just have a general question for those who are seeking change to the law (to paraphrase), what is it that you want to change?

    Are you wanting to remove intent as an element for murder? Something that has existed for hundreds of years in pretty much every developed legal system in the world?

    Are you wanting to abolish the appeals process for jury decisions? Again something that is integral to the Westminster System (and others) that protects against error, negligence and corruption within our legal system?

    Are you wanting an increase in penalty for those who have lied throughout the judicial process? Effectively this already happens as the normal discount for an early plea is not available for those who proceed to trial and fail to show any remorse.

    Are you proposing a different (lesser) standard of proof for dishonest defendants?

    I greatly admire those with the willingness to band together and effect change but I'm struggling to understand what change is being sought in this instance, every possible scenario I can come up with is either already in place or erodes all of our well established legal protections (and will flow down to all of the lesser offences, not just unlawful deaths).

    This recent decision is not one that is out of the box, it happens many times every single year in QLD (unsafe/unsatisfactory). It is just the case that Allison's death and Gerard's subsequent trial/appeal has attracted more attention than most of the other homicide cases combined. This isn't an example of a systemic failing, it's just that nobody seemed to care until it happened to an attractive mother from an affluent suburb and I guess that troubles me somewhat.
     
  3. Couldbe

    Couldbe Well-Known Member

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    I would just like it appealed to the High Court.

    JMO but watching and listening to Gerard on the witness stand explaining, as best as he could, his version of the circumstances in the circumstantial evidence presented against him contributed to seeing him as a man in denial of any connection at all with the death of his wife.

    Would this observation by the Jury too, have no standing at all in them viewing the collective circumstantial evidence as interpreting the likelihood of intent …. for them, beyond all reasonable doubt?
    (Questioning by the Prosecution afforded this to them)

    Thank you JCB; appreciate you taking the time.
     
  4. Liadan

    Liadan Well-Known Member

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    Yes totally agree Breaking News, what a total waste of time for those Jurors! You lose your income, time with family and and you pour your heart and mind into the case and then you are rewarded with - soz you guys are wrong, we found this minute point of law and .....well thanks for coming but never mind now- we got this---- hey great work showing up when we needed a democratic decision and we are just going to overrule it now cause we know better and you in all your discussions. Funnny but you guys omitted to review this tiny point of law that we are debating.... (if this is the case then why aren't the jury versed in what options there are in appeal - surely any lawyer is looking down the track for their client, and a jury should be educated as to what the options for appeal would be.)
     
  5. possumheart

    possumheart Well-Known Member

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    My partner is in a very bad mood tonight. I guess if he strangles me in my sleep, his mood is something only I know about, so his 'intent' would be in his own mind. Manslaughter?
     
  6. BreakingNews

    BreakingNews Well-Known Member

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    So true Liadan. Jurors are subjected to the horror of murder, all the gory evidence, photos etc as well as a physical visit to places of significant. You are kept together all day and on the last night we were put in a motel together - no phone or TV or bar fridge. Just sitting around waiting until police could go to our homes, feed our animals and find us toothbrushes, more clothes and even undies.

    Then you make the big decision and that upsets us knowing our decision is life-changing. The a few days later you are back in court and chosen again for another trial. No rest, no support, no counselling. It wasn't until one of the jurors broke down that the Judge let us from the murder trial go. I had nightmares for months after that trial. But what would have been far worse for us would have been if he appeal and charges were downgraded.

    BTW he was due for parole a year or so ago, and it was not granted as he hadn't shown remorse!!! Sound familiar? Was also a Queensland case.
     
  7. Fuskier

    Fuskier Well-Known Member

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    Hypothetically, we could say: your husband is in a bad mood tonight, he is in serious debt, he doesn't have any ready source of finances (cause he's tried that!); his lover pressured him to leave you; he promised his lover that he would be free by July 1st. He was humiliated in public this evening when his card was declined at the supermarket. This humiliation was the last straw! His financial situation came screaming loudly in his head.

    It was critical. Earlier his lover pressured him to leave you. He does not love you. He could co-parent the children with his lover anyway. You own a house, have superannuation and Insurance which he could claim upon your death. This would solve some financial issues. It's easier that way you see!

    The children are asleep after a busy day at school sports. You settle on the couch to watch TV. He takes the opportunity. He comes up behind you, puts his hand over your mouth, puts his knee on your chest and suffocates you. You struggle and reach up, scratching his face to get him to realise what he is doing. He continues relentless. You dig your nails in deeply, but can no longer breathe and lose energy. He suffocates you until you lose consciousness and stop breathing.

    He opens the patio doors and drags you out feet first across the patio. The little dog at the back property barks incessantly. He dumps you in the car, then speeds off driving 14k to a bridge near a river. He discards you by tossing you down the steep embankment hoping you land in the water and float away or get eaten by sharks in the Brisbane river. Dead or dying, you are left for dead in the darkness of night.

    He spends the rest of the night manipulating the scene at home, cleaning, making beds and getting rid of any evidence. He can count on his family's help because they seriously never liked you anyway. It's business as usual.

    For 10 days, your corpse lay rotting away by the edge of the river removing evidence of the cause of your death. For 10 days he lies to the police and denys knowing anything about your disappearance, but he knows exactly where you are because he put you there. He hopes you are washed away and all evidence of the cause of your death is washed away too; but he knows that the longer you are not found, the more decayed your body will be and most likely the cause of your death will be unable to be determined. He goes about 'business as usual' and does not help in the search for you.

    On the day your remains are located, he and his father immediately lodge forms to claim
    Insurance for your death. Then just as he had hoped for, the Coroner is unable to determine an exact cause of death due to decay...

    Possumheart, that husband of yours sure is calculating! You see, only he and you know what happened - except for those scratches on his face. Others might speculate on those. For sure.
     
  8. Sor Juana

    Sor Juana Member

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  9. Couldbe

    Couldbe Well-Known Member

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    Question: Does 'the buck stop here' with the Appeal Judges? / or could the Defence make a High Court appeal against the Manslaughter verdict on behalf of Gerard?
    Could he end up walking? and so be it!
     
  10. Trooper

    Trooper Well-Known Member

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    edited and BBM by me for clarity and brevity.


    'nobody seemed to care.. '.. a gross hyperbole, which rather ruins the rest of the theory, really. Surely it cant put in the shade the efforts of those involved in the Morecombe case, or any number of women murdered by their husbands in QLD. The glaring fact is... it wasn't Allison who had put herself front and centre in her life, it was Gerard. Who was the head honcho of the Brookie Rotary, and the Show fluffer ,and the Chamber of Commerce? who was the bloke on nodding terms with the Mayor of Brisbane? who was being 'groomed' to enter politics, on the coattails of Campbell Newman? who saw himself as the next LNP spark? who zipped around town in his personal vanity plate car? who actually ran a blog on the internet advising people on their lives? who was here , there and everywhere, lecturing to schoolchildren, opening this, and closing that? well.. not Allison, and it troubles me somewhat that there is the whiff of victim blaming going on here. It is hardly Allisons fault if she is attractive, and a mother. She still did not deserve to be beaten and hurled over a bridge into a muddy creek.

    I think it really is fairer to say that people were intensely interested in this crime because of Gerard. If Gerard hadn't run out of his car, all floppy handed and beady eyed on a young reporters bosom, he would never have got the interest he attracted. And he attracted that interest because from that moment, he was catalogued as a liar, a murderer, and probably an embezzler, which turned out to be true, also.
     
  11. they'll get you

    they'll get you CHRIS. P. BACON

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    THE online petition urging Queensland’s Attorney-General to appeal the downgrading of Gerard Baden-Clay’s murder conviction had amassed more than 122,000 signatures when it closed yesterday.

    Denise Morcombe (right) with Allison Baden-Clay’s family and friends at the #doingitforallison rally in King George Square last Friday. Picture: Tara Croser



    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...n/news-story/ee57f68f88aab1cc656db47ea2cc61e0
     

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  12. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    Very well written Fuskier. I suspect you are very close to the mark.
    The only criticism from me is this: He would need the body to stay in a place long enough for evidence to become murky. Had the body floated away and not ever been found: His claim an the all important insurance money would be delayed. Tut tut! How terrible. The worst scenario for Baden Clay in his own eyes.
    He appears to completely oblivious to social criticism. His only focus; himself.
    Even in this matter, Baden Clay remains a Law unto himself. In this regard Baden Clay has been true to form.
     
  13. Couldbe

    Couldbe Well-Known Member

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    He seems to make a study of the Law ..... he googled 'Taking the Fifth', he took notes all throughout the duration of his Committal and his Trial.
    He wrote a note to be delivered to the Trial Judge saying he hadn't felt he had made himself quite clear enough on the witness stand the day before; following which a change from the charge of Murder was sought by the Defence.

    ........... has he outsmarted the Appeal Judges and was able to set the scene for his own Appeal which followed quickly?
     
  14. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    Ah yes, The Law ... And how to out-smart it. Baden Clay to a tee....
     
  15. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    A matter somewhat personal has been niggling at my senses. Slightly related, and slightly not, and the reason this entire matter became personal to me:
    Once upon a time I was married to someone like this. He was arrogant, ignorant, and thought he was a cut above the average Australian lady. Also above Australian Law.
    I never knew the word Narcissist until this matter arrived. But I could smell this BC rat from a mile off, based on my own personal experiences.
    To cut a long story short, the Narcissist to whom I was once married took his own life end of July this year.
    His parents had died some years earlier, thus seemingly cutting off his life line.
    He effectively had abandoned his own children. He appeared to have no real feelings of either empathy or sympathy. Satisfied to brag about his sexual conquests. Without shame.
    He was always in love with himself. No one else really mattered.
    Baden Clay appears to have interest only in himself. The parallels are eerie.
    I suspect that the many people who have come together because of Allison Dickie Baden Clay have done so; either because of an innate possibly primitive understanding of a matter most foul. Intuition.
    Or because Baden Clay is a text book case for how to spot a Liar.
    Or because blind Freddy can sniff this one out, all thanks to Gerard himself. His track record speaks for itself.
    Or because they have lived with someone who is excellent at covering his tracks. And making his partner look like she is the problem.
    Catch me if you can is the name of the game.
     
  16. BreakingNews

    BreakingNews Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but I can't find the link, but didn't the 3 appeal judges say something about a likely scuffle with Allison and she might have fallen and hit her head and died accidentally. So how come there was no evidence of this in the autopsy report?

    Sent from my Blade S6 using Tapatalk
     
  17. Fuskier

    Fuskier Well-Known Member

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    ... or an interest in Domestic Violence and the historical & structural inequality and vulnerability of women. When I watched that tv reporter interviewing GBC shadowed by his sister, I knew in that moment that Alison was dead. Many other people have reported the same 'knowing' without knowing the actual facts.
    How does The Law make sense of that?

    There was no 'panic' evident'; but we have evidence of an orchestrated and calculated effort to maneuver information to 'dupe' the public using msm. My opinion only.
     
  18. LadyBird1

    LadyBird1 Member

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    Me too Fuskier. I thought I was the only one in Australia who "knew in that moment that Allison was dead". I felt guilty about that. Searched for ways to share this horrible "knowledge" Hence my presence here and the other site. Also I thought; I bet he will grow a beard. That's what a guilty person with facial evidence always does.
     
  19. Couldbe

    Couldbe Well-Known Member

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    Allison's phone was triangulated in the area around their house on the morning Gerard reported her missing.

    I have always wondered if it contained incriminating fingerprints or even a revealing photo.

    So who outsmarted the Police and all the searchers in getting rid of Allison's mobile phone' never to be seen again?
     
  20. Trooper

    Trooper Well-Known Member

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    the only outsmarter who had 'left the house to take the girls to school'...Bwana was still at the house, packing up the vacuum cleaner.

    Anyone who doesn't think Olivia was in on the big secret that morning , contact me, I have a bridge to sell you. And she is as poor an actor as her befuddled brother. Her crazed overseeing of Gerard's now infamous interview with the lovely girl reporter is a dead giveaway and one day, one day, Olivia will be held to account for all those dreadful 'press' blitherings she subjected the general public to. Those blatant lies, those brazen allegations ... one day, Olivia.
     
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