Gerard Baden Clay's murder appeal

[Trooper]

I don't see any momentum being diminished in the MSN about this direction by the Appeals Court, . at all. If anything, it is gaining momentum.. The Law has never been a static thing.. it does change, it is always slow, like a massive steel door moving on tiny ballbearings , but it does evolve, .. it isn't meant to be cast in concrete..

I have , if not a calm and considered confidence about this, I do have the general outlook that this Appeal verdict of Gerard's may in deed fall on it's face , and not manifest itself in actuality. As long as Gerard sits in his cell, I wouldn't be surprised to hear of many , many cogs turning many wheels in expectation of a setting aside of this outcome. I see many a slip twixt cup and lip for Gerard, not the least of it the rumbling genuine outrage among the general populace right across the country, not confined to Brisbane, or QLD. These are taxpayers snorting, and every Officer of the Court knows who pays the wages.

As I see nothing but a life of deep and constant public humiliation of Gerard and by extension , his family members who lied on the stand, for the rest of their lives, one could take this latest event with a certain amount of grim obstinacy. ... that's where I am at.

 

[they'll get you]

Yes financial abuse is a significant factor. I just signed a petition on Change.org re this case, it has almost 10,000 signatures asking the AG to review the case and change of verdict. It's great that everyone seems to as indignant and angry as us.

Thank you. I've signed this petition.

 

[MadDoc]

The petition now stands at 29,549 signatures.

 

[they'll get you]

I maintain that he is at nature a man who financially abuses anyone, men, women, children, wives, girlfriends, business partners, empoyees, .. friends, family, institutions. His brother, whom he owed $10,000 who had to get that off the Dad, and then he owed his Dad that on top of around $90,000 the silly Bwana/s had invested in Gerard..

His employees who were weeks behind in their pay, towards the end of Gerard's craziness..

His business partners, two of whom left without the money owing them , just to get away from his inbuilt hornswoggling shifty dodgy cheating business ways..

Even the pathetic Toni. ... the only time she ever got to stretch out in bed with Gerard ( the norm was the back of the car.. at her age!! ) .. when she rocked up at the Crown Casino for a unique all nighter, he tells her ' Toni, Toni, how can I put this on my credit card!!. . I cant!.. I didn't bring cash, either!!.. ' so she, Toni, pays Gerard to spend the night with her.

Now, folks. .. there is no other name for this than financial abuse.

It's really sad but for TM paying priceless!!......:floorlaugh:

 

[they'll get you]

https://www.facebook.com/Dear-Allison-1463181660599833/?fref=nf

I found this relevant.

 

[Fuskier]

In Judge Byrne's summing up, he did instruct the Jury as you say. I guess the problem lies in that the charge had remained as 'Murder'; although the discussion, as you say, took place out of sight of the overflow courts, I imagine that it could have resulted in the charge being changed to 'Unlawful killing' (as Alioop explained covers both Murder and Manslaughter). Maybe if that had resulted, Gerard could have then pleaded guilty to Manslaughter ...... which may have reduced his sentence by that admission. Probably worth a try at the time, but he was denied that opportunity. Maybe Judge Byrne would have been wise to tell the Jury that he had denied the change (don't know if that happened).
My interpretation now is that, in Judge Byrne instructing the Jury the way he did, the Jury had to be sure that there was 'spur of the moment intent' existing in the evidence ...... and the Appeal Judges have found there was not .... and hence have now reduced the verdict to Manslaughter.
..... it is that 'spur of the moment intent' interpretation in Law that I am mad about.

BIB IMO Gerard had plenty of opportunity to make an admission either way. He did not make any admission. Further, I do not agree with the premise put forward by the Defense that there was NO evidence of Domestic Violence. This premise was not challenged by the Prosecution. The Appeal Judges took that into account in formulating the downgrade. Maybe this was an oversight by the Prosecution as there was evidence of factors which contribute to Domestic Violence in that relationship. My opinion only.

 

[Fuskier]

Extract from: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...lleged-lies-20140711-zt3yv.html#ixzz3ttYl4b3U
“You may only use the lie about cutting himself shaving - if a lie it is - as tending to prove the element of murder of an intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm if, on the whole of the evidence, the accused lied because he realised that the truth of the matter in that respect would show that, in killing his wife, he had intended to kill her or to cause her grievous bodily harm,” Justice Byrne said.
“It may be that, even if you were to find that the accused lied about his facial injuries because he realised that the truth would show him to be the killer, still you would not conclude that the lie shows that he realised that her death after scratching him with her fingernails would show that he had killed her intentionally.”
The jury’s deliberations were interrupted on Thursday when it was revealed one juror had downloaded material from the internet. The material was from an overseas commentator who wrote about the role of a jury in a criminal trial
Mr Baden-Clay is accused of killing his wife Allison at their home in the affluent western Brisbane suburb of Brookfield on April 19, 2012, and dumping her body on the banks of Kholo Creek at Anstead, 14 kilometres away.
He has pleaded not guilty to murder.
Justice Byrne told the jurors for the first time on Wednesday they could consider a manslaughter verdict if they found Mr Baden-Clay not guilty of murder.
To find Mr Baden-Clay guilty of manslaughter, the jury does not need to conclude he intended to kill his wife, only that he did so unlawfully."

It seems that although Judge Byrne advised them regarding using crucial evidence to conclude that there was 'intention killing', the Jury still found him 'guilty of murder' as charged........ the Appeal Judges did not agree that proof of intent was inherent in the evidence.
I don't believe that it was only those two pieces of evidence that were taken into account by the Jury.

Thank you for this post Couldbe. Helpful for WS's to read what was covered at Trial. Appreciated.

 

[alioop]

There is no doubt the trial judge was of the opinion there was enough evidence to prove intent ( likely spur of the moment intent) , but the court of appeal disagreed. I think the jury wanted to convict him of murder but struggled with finding evidence of intent. Hence their questions about manslaughter.
A different jury may well have convicted him of manslaughter.

I think the prosecution very heavily relied on his post killing conduct as circumstantial evidence of murder. Why a very deceptive and extreme cover up if not to hide evidence of intentionally inflicted injuries? And he got lucky that no cause of death could be established because of the passing of time effects on her body.

It doesn't seem like the prosecution prepared Allison's family that the verdict could be overturned. He is still convicted of killing Allison and should get a long prison sentence and doesn't get her money. No one knows exactly what happened except him and without a cause of death it's just conjecture about how he killed her.

 

[Fuskier]

www.change.org/baden-clay is now at 37,000 and climbing. I have signed the petition.

 

[Fuskier]

There is no doubt the trial judge was of the opinion there was enough evidence to prove intent ( likely spur of the moment intent) , but the court of appeal disagreed. I think the jury wanted to convict him of murder but struggled with finding evidence of intent. Hence their questions about manslaughter.
A different jury may well have convicted him of manslaughter.

I think the prosecution very heavily relied on his post killing conduct as circumstantial evidence of murder. Why a very deceptive and extreme cover up if not to hide evidence of intentionally inflicted injuries? And he got lucky that no cause of death could be established because of the passing of time effects on her body.

It doesn't seem like the prosecution prepared Allison's family that the verdict could be overturned. He is still convicted of killing Allison and should get a long prison sentence and doesn't get her money. No one knows exactly what happened except him and without a cause of death it's just conjecture about how he killed her.

Thank you Alioop. Very helpful.
However, the Jury seemed to take the downward movement of the scratches, the Coroner's view that there was most likely significant injury in the soft tissues of her face, that there was a hematoma-type injury on her head, that there was blood in the car, that it was an unnatural death as evidence of murder. The downward movement of the scratches indicated that the victim was most likely horizontal to the murderer and had reached for his face, dug her nails in leaving deep scratches - in her desperate struggle for life. This was not an unreasonable hypothesis in my opinion.

 

[Couldbe]

There is no doubt the trial judge was of the opinion there was enough evidence to prove intent ( likely spur of the moment intent) , but the court of appeal disagreed. I think the jury wanted to convict him of murder but struggled with finding evidence of intent. Hence their questions about manslaughter.
A different jury may well have convicted him of manslaughter.

I think the prosecution very heavily relied on his post killing conduct as circumstantial evidence of murder. Why a very deceptive and extreme cover up if not to hide evidence of intentionally inflicted injuries? And he got lucky that no cause of death could be established because of the passing of time effects on her body.

It doesn't seem like the prosecution prepared Allison's family that the verdict could be overturned. He is still convicted of killing Allison and should get a long prison sentence and doesn't get her money. No one knows exactly what happened except him and without a cause of death it's just conjecture about how he killed her.

Taking Gerard's controlling personality into account, I can't help thinking that he won't already be scheming how to have the last word on this new verdict of Manslaughter ....wouldn't be palatable to him! Hope there isn't a legal loophole for him to intervene, concurrently with our objection, in this new verdict ....... to his advantage; like maybe a retrial, which could result in a better outcome for him.

 

[they'll get you]

"It absolutely sends the same message that I'm saying all of the time, that we undermine, disregard a victim in a violent relationship," she said.

"You know, the other high-profile case in South Africa [of Oscar Pistorious], the same thing.

"Why is it so hard to believe when there is history of violence that that murder is not intentional?"

Ms Batty addressed a forum on the Sunshine Coast on Wednesday and said the Baden-Clay decision had left her feeling "totally gutted".

"I just can't believe — and I don't know whether I should say so or not — I just cannot believe a history of violence that's very clear can be appealed and made to be manslaughter," she said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-...gerard-baden-clay-manslaughter-ruling/7015492

 

[Flinders]

@TheMurrayD
Justice John Byrne ruled explicitly during Gerard Baden-Clay's trial there was enough evidence for jury to conclude it was murder.
6.01am


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[Oz Jen]

Taking Gerard's controlling personality into account, I can't help thinking that he won't already be scheming how to have the last word on this new verdict of Manslaughter ....wouldn't be palatable to him! Hope there isn't a legal loophole for him to intervene, concurrently with our objection, in this new verdict ....... to his advantage; like maybe a retrial, which could result in a better outcome for him.

I wonder if GBC is now pondering how much easier would it have been to have just pleaded ‘self-defense’ in the first place?

He could have simply stated, ‘Yep, I renewed my affair and lied to my wife. Yep she found out about it. Yep we had words. Then she lunged at me. I tried to fend her off, she scratched me, and somehow….I must have pushed her….just a little bit. I panicked and instead of calling an ambulance, I tossed her off the bridge. Silly, I know, but I’m really, really sorry.”

This may have gone some way towards showing unpremeditated, accidental killing, ensuing panic, a demonstration of remorse and consideration of his daughters and the Dickies.
But no.

 

[Flinders]

@TheMurrayD Who's wrong? The state's most senior trial judge who sat through five week trial, or the Court of Appeal? #badenclay 17 mins ago

*Crime & Justice
Gerard Baden-Clay charge: Trial judge at odds with appeals court
December 11, 2015 12:00am
KATE KYRIACOUThe Courier-Mail
(Snipped)
Justice John Byrne’s sentencing remarks – as well as comments he made to Gerard Baden-Clay’s lawyers when they asked for the murder charge to be dismissed mid-trial – put him at odds with this week’s Court of Appeal decision.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...t/news-story/6937da0e5e2a0b85b28b6bab3415c112


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[Couldbe]

Press must be wanting to ask Olivia:

Are you happy with this Manslaughter verdict?
Is this in line with the truth that you said would come out?
What was that truth of yours by the way?

 

[they'll get you]

How would the Dickies explain this to the children?

The pain they are going though.

How would have to deliver 'the news' in such a different way to your true feelings.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

 

[McCoy]

How would the Dickies explain this to the children?

The pain they are going though.

How would have to deliver 'the news' in such a different way to your true feelings.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Yes and what a horrible Christmas they'll have worrying about the sentence. I really feel for them and they aren't young, all this stress isn't good for them.

 

[they'll get you]

Yes and what a horrible Christmas they'll have worrying about the sentence. I really feel for them and they aren't young, all this stress isn't good for them.

In front of the children it's 'BUSINESS AS USUAL' Cristmas & holidays upcoming....oh but the underlying emotions.

What wonderful people they must be.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/com...-why-lie-in-court-gerard-20151208-gliz3n.html

Gerard Baden-Clay appeal: 'Why lie in court, Gerard?'
December 9, 2015 by Madonna King

In Court, under Oath, Baden-Clay said he 'did not kill his wife' and 'he did not fight with her on the evening of the 19th'. That is what he said under Oath. He was not asked if he murdered his wife, he was asked if he killed his wife.

"... And that's why his appeal, and the court's decision this week, shows the law, as it stands, is an *advertiser censored*"...

Why was he able to appeal the jury's murder verdict by changing his story?

"... But the court's decision - granting him his argument that his killing might have been unintentional - makes a mockery of both our courts and the national campaign being waged against domestic violence.

The State Government should do whatever is in its power to both recoup the millions of dollars Baden-Clay wasted on the original trial telling porkies, and then pursue this, as best it can, to see the original verdict stick"...