Germany/Portugal - Christian Brueckner, 27 @ time of 1st crime (2004), charged with sexual assault crimes, Praia de Rocha, Portugal. #2

[Anxala]

It was the judge who commented on MSs recall, if it was FF alone questioning it you'd think maybe he was on a loser, but if MS is unreliable now why was he reliable before, I see according to MBs (sky)version he asked MS if he was suffering any ailments.

Christian B trial: Madeleine McCann suspect 'seen on videos sexually assaulting woman and girl', court hears

Christian B is standing trial in Germany accused of three counts of rape and two of child sexual abuse. The prosecution claims the offences took place in Portugal between 2000 and 2017. The allegations do not relate to Madeleine's disappearance in 2007.

news.sky.com

During extensive questioning by the judge and the defendant's lawyer, Seyferth repeatedly claimed to not remember crucial details. His testimony also diverged from statements given at a trial in 2019, which saw Christian B be convicted of rape.

As the court session went on, defence lawyer Friedrich Fulscher asked the witness: "Do you suffer from Alzheimer's, or other diseases that affect memory?"

He was presumably reliable before because of the account he gave of the rape of the elderly woman which matched more or less to the letter the account of the rape of DM and HaB. That he's now failing to give a credible and consistent account of himself is the point of the trial, to determine if a witness is reliable or not.

 

[C.greek]

He was presumably reliable before because of the account he gave of the rape of the elderly woman which matched more or less to the letter the account of the rape of DM and HaB. That he's now failing to give a credible and consistent account of himself is the point of the trial, to determine if a witness is reliable or not.

Didn't he give evidence in the DM trial? Wasn't he a witness then? If so, perhaps he indeed has memory lapses and is suffering from a disease that affects his memory (?). If this is the case, why would he be considered unreliable now?! I struggle to understand how him not being entirely consistent with his previous testimony makes him an unreliable witness now. What he testified before could not have been made up

 

[Anxala]

Didn't he give evidence in the DM trial? Wasn't he a witness then? If so, perhaps he indeed has memory lapses and is suffering from a disease that affects his memory (?). If this is the case, why would he be considered unreliable now?! I struggle to understand how him not being entirely consistent with his previous testimony makes him an unreliable witness now. What he testified before could not have been made up

I have no idea. It's for the judge, with all the facts at hand, to decide whether or not MS is a reliable witness as far as the attacks on the two unknown victims are concerned, particularly in the case of the young girl. If he fails to recall or contradicts details that he provided in the past, then yes, it's perfectly reasonable for both the judge and defence to call his credibility into question. And if it's the case that MS has a memory impairment, then it raises questions as to whether anything he says now can be used at all as evidence in these two cases.

I'm sure the judge knows what he's doing.

In any case, it's very difficult for us to know what, where and how significant the discrepancies in MS's accounts of what he witnessed on video are without transcripts of what he said back in 2019 (or whenever) and what he's saying now in 2024.

 

[RichardKimble]

Probably HeB to be heard next for continuity of cases one would think.

​

 

[Mex]

Yes - they are the only evidence for those two charges. Logically from the previous verdict, I can see why those cases were brought, but now it doesn't look good if they colluded on their evidence.

Initially their evidence regarding these rapes was all the police had to go on. A search of Portuguese police files led the German police to one of the rapes described in the video.

DM had reported the assault on her to the Portuguese police in 2005. The file corroborated the description she had given about the aggravated assault she had suffered. CB was charged and convicted on that evidence and forensic evidence.

So had DM not reported the rape at the time the chances are that the connection to CB would not have have been made and DM would not have got justice. She would just have been another woman being abused for CB's gratification.

It is highly probable that the two rapes for which CB presently faces trial were not reported at the time making the difficult task of proving them even more so. But I doubt there was any last minute collusion between witnesses.

 

[UK Girl]

Initially their evidence regarding these rapes was all the police had to go on. A search of Portuguese police files led the German police to one of the rapes described in the video.

DM had reported the assault on her to the Portuguese police in 2005. The file corroborated the description she had given about the aggravated assault she had suffered. CB was charged and convicted on that evidence and forensic evidence.

So had DM not reported the rape at the time the chances are that the connection to CB would not have have been made and DM would not have got justice. She would just have been another woman being abused for CB's gratification.

It is highly probable that the two rapes for which CB presently faces trial were not reported at the time making the difficult task of proving them even more so. But I doubt there was any last minute collusion between witnesses.

then why all the phone calls when he claims he hadnt spoken to him in years? just before he tesified?

 

[Davieson]

Initially their evidence regarding these rapes was all the police had to go on. A search of Portuguese police files led the German police to one of the rapes described in the video.

DM had reported the assault on her to the Portuguese police in 2005. The file corroborated the description she had given about the aggravated assault she had suffered. CB was charged and convicted on that evidence and forensic evidence.

So had DM not reported the rape at the time the chances are that the connection to CB would not have have been made and DM would not have got justice. She would just have been another woman being abused for CB's gratification.

It is highly probable that the two rapes for which CB presently faces trial were not reported at the time making the difficult task of proving them even more so. But I doubt there was any last minute collusion between witnesses.

What leads you to doubt collusion given the number of phone calls the guy had with his co-witness just before he appeared as a witness ?

 

[Mex]

then why all the phone calls when he claims he hadn't spoken to him in years? just before he testified?

No idea, but given the known traceability of telephone traffic a bit stupid for anyone to deliberately lie about it.
He was pretty stressed about being under police protection.

Snip
CB... reportedly possessed tools to pick 14 kinds of locks.
That claim reportedly comes from a witness who is under protection from German police and talked with an independent filmmaker.
Protected witness HB claims he saw a lock-picking kit at CB’s home. HB stole it and reported it to German authorities.
“I knew from CB that he uses tools to break into holiday resorts, hotels and holiday homes to steal from tourists,” the Sun on Sunday quoted HB as saying.

HB claimed he’s been in witness protection since CB’s attorneys urged him to retract his claims.

Madeleine McCann Breakthrough: Man in Police Witness Protection Claims He Found Bombshell Evidence at Prime Suspect's Home

A prime suspect in the kidnapping of Madeleine McCann reportedly possessed tools to pick 14 kinds of locks.

knewz.com

 

[Mex]

What leads you to doubt collusion given the number of phone calls the guy had with his co-witness just before he appeared as a witness ?

How many years have passed since these former associates of CB's went to the police to inform on him in relation to the MM case?

The DM rape trial arising from their information took place in 2019. Between then and now anyone wishing to pervert the course of justice must have had ample opportunities to do just that without recourse to waiting till the eve of a trial to phone an accomplice. Not really any surreptitious behaviour about that!

I am sure the learned lead judge will be keeping a close eye on everything which affects the conduct of the trial now it has finally made it to court and deal with it accordingly.

 

[Anxala]

Probably HeB to be heard next for continuity of cases one would think.

​

Yes, he and MS are the two key witnesses in the unknown victim cases. The only two, I'd say.

I'd love to have court transcripts from the DM trial and this current trial.

 

[Anxala]

No idea, but given the known traceability of telephone traffic a bit stupid for anyone to deliberately lie about it.
He was pretty stressed about being under police protection.

Snip
CB... reportedly possessed tools to pick 14 kinds of locks.
That claim reportedly comes from a witness who is under protection from German police and talked with an independent filmmaker.
Protected witness HB claims he saw a lock-picking kit at CB’s home. HB stole it and reported it to German authorities.
“I knew from CB that he uses tools to break into holiday resorts, hotels and holiday homes to steal from tourists,” the Sun on Sunday quoted HB as saying.

HB claimed he’s been in witness protection since CB’s attorneys urged him to retract his claims.

Madeleine McCann Breakthrough: Man in Police Witness Protection Claims He Found Bombshell Evidence at Prime Suspect's Home

A prime suspect in the kidnapping of Madeleine McCann reportedly possessed tools to pick 14 kinds of locks.

knewz.com

? We're talking about MS here, not HeB. He hasn't been questioned yet.

 

[Mex]

? We're talking anout MS here, not HeB. He hasn't been questioned yet.

My apologies you are of course perfectly correct. I was making reference to the other side of the phone conversation equation. Goes to show how the passage of years sometimes does result in legitimate confusion.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, exactly. On paper, the witnesses might have looked sound, in practice, in front of a judge, under intense questioning, less so, as seems to be the case here.

also there is a differing burden of proof

in the previous case they were found to be credible and thus their evidence was accepted as supporting conviction. so just proved to the evidential standard.

in this case their evidence has to establish proof beyond reasonable doubt as basically the only evidence of the crime. that is a much heavier lift.

 

[mrjitty]

Didn't he give evidence in the DM trial? Wasn't he a witness then? If so, perhaps he indeed has memory lapses and is suffering from a disease that affects his memory (?). If this is the case, why would he be considered unreliable now?! I struggle to understand how him not being entirely consistent with his previous testimony makes him an unreliable witness now. What he testified before could not have been made up

one reason is now we have evidence he may have hothoused his evidence with HeB

the previous court didnt see that. it suggests the witnesses have colluded.

of course they might have just been talking about bundesliga results

 

[Mex]

MS was accused of acting in collusion with HB but other questions were raised too regarding the defence team and their alleged conduct.

Snip
As the court was winding up for the day, out came a perhaps much more sinister claim which could backfire on the defence.

Madeleine McCann suspect’s friend tells a German court how he found ‘Head waiter’ Christian Brueckner’s violent rape videos ‘in which he starred’ - Olive Press News Spain

A FORMER friend of Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner has told a court how he found two violent *advertiser censored* movies made by him at his Portugal home.

www.theolivepress.es

MS accused FF of hacking into his Facebook account which due to the content, he believed had been an attempt to trace HB who is in the witness protection programme

Serious stuff if the allegation is substantiated. Certainly the judge and the prosecutor pricked their up their ears at the thought. MS wasn't able to substantiate his suspicion. But it will be checked.

 

[UK Girl]

No idea, but given the known traceability of telephone traffic a bit stupid for anyone to deliberately lie about it.
He was pretty stressed about being under police protection.

Snip
CB... reportedly possessed tools to pick 14 kinds of locks.
That claim reportedly comes from a witness who is under protection from German police and talked with an independent filmmaker.
Protected witness HB claims he saw a lock-picking kit at CB’s home. HB stole it and reported it to German authorities.
“I knew from CB that he uses tools to break into holiday resorts, hotels and holiday homes to steal from tourists,” the Sun on Sunday quoted HB as saying.

HB claimed he’s been in witness protection since CB’s attorneys urged him to retract his claims.

Madeleine McCann Breakthrough: Man in Police Witness Protection Claims He Found Bombshell Evidence at Prime Suspect's Home

A prime suspect in the kidnapping of Madeleine McCann reportedly possessed tools to pick 14 kinds of locks.

knewz.com

HB was under police protection ( and yet kept selling his story) but was MS also under it?

 

[Mex]

also there is a differing burden of proof

in the previous case they were found to be credible and thus their evidence was accepted as supporting conviction. so just proved to the evidential standard.

in this case their evidence has to establish proof beyond reasonable doubt as basically the only evidence of the crime. that is a much heavier lift.

I agree with that opinion.
I have always found it odd that it was possible to serve an indictment without having a complainant. But the fact that CB was indicted proves it is acceptable, probably because similar evidence was proven in the DM case.

In Scotland we have a similar protocol called the Moorov Doctrine.

Snip
In summary, the Moorov doctrine enables the use of similar fact evidence to strengthen the case against an accused when multiple offenses are involved. It helps establish a pattern of behaviour or course of conduct that supports the charges12

I think that same principal of Scottish Law is also available in German Law.

 

[Mex]

HB was under police protection ( and yet kept selling his story) but was MS also under it?

I have no knowledge that he is. Whereas HB expressed how disturbed and distressed he was about the whole situation and that fact centred on the restrictions he was under as a result. To the extent that he was threatening to withdraw his cooperation, probably in an attempt to get his life back. (can't be comfortable for a man with his history to have to rely on the police for protection)
I can't link to the interview which led me to think him quite vulnerable because it is on a prohibited source.

 

[Anxala]

one reason is now we have evidence he may have hothoused his evidence with HeB

the previous court didnt see that. it suggests the witnesses have colluded.

of course they might have just been talking about bundesliga results

Or the cost of living crisis? So many things that do not remotely suggest conversations that went along the lines of 'Holy s&it, remind me of what I should say again??'

But, in any case, contact between them is not a crime, as Judge Uta Inse Engemann said. HeB, now fully armed as to MS's missteps, may fare better when his turn comes.

 

[UK Girl]

Or the cost of living crisis? So many things that do not remotely say 'Holy s&it, remind me of what I should say again??'

But, in any case, contact between them is not a crime, as Judge Uta Inse Engemann said. HeB, now fully armed as to MS's misteps, may fare better when his turn comes.

it wasnt a crime to speak to him but its a crime to lie about it