Germany/Portugal - Christian Brueckner, 27 @ time of 1st crime (2004), charged with sexual assault crimes, Praia de Rocha, Portugal. #3

[mrjitty]

Which other convictions?

The solved cases in Portugal which the defence say were similar

 

[Mex]

I think there is decent evidence that CB is guilty of the 3 rapes but I wonder if it rises to the criminal standard. MOO

We know nothing of the alleged three rapes or the circumstances surrounding them. Not a smidgeon of information about the investigation carried out leading to

• the court case
• information regarding the convictions

This information could be imparted without invading the privacy of the rape survivors.

In the intervening period it seems an allegation presented in court has become part of the narrative despite no information about it being substantiated.

On the other hand in the proven aggravated rape of DM by CB the standard you refer to was met.
The present rape trial represents HB's day in court where HB is as entitled to a fair hearing on HER case as CB is to the presumption of innocence on his.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The solved cases in Portugal which the defence say were similar

Yeah, right.

People have been filming sex acts since film was invented. The spread of the video and the internet were driven by *advertiser censored*. I don’t think that filming rape is so rare, certainly Mike Debardeleben did it repeatedly. It seems like something a sicko would do.

Given that we are led to believe that the Algave was a magnet for paedos and criminals, why is it so unlikely.

 

[Mex]

Just to note that the defence moving to exclude evidence is a fundamental part of due process. Attacking the evidence of process grounds is the big half of the job IMO.

It certainly highlights the fact that it seems to be the only line of defence available to CB's legal team.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

Yeah, right.

People have been filming sex acts since film was invented. The spread of the video and the internet were driven by *advertiser censored*. I don’t think that filming rape is so rare, certainly Mike Debardeleben did it repeatedly. It seems like something a sicko would do.

Given that we are led to believe that the Algave was a magnet for paedos and criminals, why is it so unlikely.

That is correct.
But some of the content is deemed to be illegal because it involves non consenting adults (remember so called "snuff movies"?) and sickening images of children of all ages.

CB's record of offences includes convictions which showed collections of such illegal practices some of which included his own image.

Snip
Convicted paedophile C B has been linked to many horrifying cases.

Maddie McCann prime suspect buried sick child abuse images under dead dog

Christian Brueckner, who is the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann's case, previously buried USB sticks containing disturbing child abuse images in a rubbish dump

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Davieson]

It certainly highlights the fact that it seems to be the only line of defence available to CB's legal team.
My opinion

I would view it as their latest line of defence. Who knows what else might be developed as things progress.

 

[mrjitty]

I would view it as their latest line of defence. Who knows what else might be developed as things progress.

It's just lawyers doing their job IMO.

Many times in the UK we don't find out about these arguments because all the big evidential arguments usually take place pre-trial or in chambers.

IMO

 

[Davieson]

That is correct.
But some of the content is deemed to be illegal because it involves non consenting adults (remember so called "snuff movies"?) and sickening images of children of all ages.

CB's record of offences includes convictions which showed collections of such illegal practices some of which included his own image.

Snip
Convicted paedophile C B has been linked to many horrifying cases.

Maddie McCann prime suspect buried sick child abuse images under dead dog

Christian Brueckner, who is the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann's case, previously buried USB sticks containing disturbing child abuse images in a rubbish dump

www.mirror.co.uk

I think those who inhabit the dark web bother too much about illegality
Without the videos in question being available for viewing by police, it might be difficult to differentiate between rape and rough sex in some cases.
I believe some get off on this sort of thing.

 

[Mex]

It's just lawyers doing their job IMO.

Many times in the UK we don't find out about these arguments because all the big evidential arguments usually take place pre-trial or in chambers.

IMO

My understanding of German procedure was that the inquisitorial system was more a civilised discussion with no in court surprises, the object being to arrive at the truth and not a legal bun fight as our adversarial can sometimes become.
This is not what I am seeing here. The nastiness aimed at prosecution witnesses is palpable.
My opinion

 

[Davieson]

I don't know how we should expect such trials to be conducted, but at least there aren't the theatricals from the various lawyers trying to sway an impressionable jury.

 

[Mex]

I think those who inhabit the dark web bother too much about illegality
Without the videos in question being available for viewing by police, it might be difficult to differentiate between rape and rough sex in some cases.
I believe some get off on this sort of thing.

Indeed so but the courts are wizening up to that particular ploy
Snip
A jury of seven women and five men took just five hours to unanimously agree that the accused, who cannot be named, had murdered GM in the hotel room where they had gone after their night out.
The accused showed no emotion as the verdict was read out.

Grace Millane trial: New Zealand man found guilty of murdering British backpacker

A jury in Auckland has decided a 27-year-old, whose name has been suppressed, knowingly killed the British tourist

www.theguardian.com

The fact remains that CB's convictions included assaults on minors and his present indictments include two alleged attacks aimed at minors as well as the horrendously violent rape of a young woman.

 

[Davieson]

These Revelations and unforeseen developments may not be a surprise to the Court, only to us who have been previously been fed the prosecution version by an imaginative media

 

[Mex]

I don't know how we should expect such trials to be conducted, but at least there aren't the theatricals from the various lawyers trying to sway an impressionable jury.

Who are the CB legal team trying to impress then as they follow one piece of theatre with the next?
Questioning the previous CB rape case judge was playing a blinder,
My opinion

 

[Denis R Tandib]

That is correct.
But some of the content is deemed to be illegal because it involves non consenting adults (remember so called "snuff movies"?) and sickening images of children of all ages.

CB's record of offences includes convictions which showed collections of such illegal practices some of which included his own image.

Snip
Convicted paedophile C B has been linked to many horrifying cases.

Maddie McCann prime suspect buried sick child abuse images under dead dog

Christian Brueckner, who is the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann's case, previously buried USB sticks containing disturbing child abuse images in a rubbish dump

www.mirror.co.uk

No doubt all CB’s offences were harrowing for the victims. However, the Salema Beach and playground incidents seem to be more characteristic of his prior record i.e. public exposure and masturbation in front of children, he has form for this.

The exception to this is DM’s rape. It is only this conviction that has made him a suspect in other rapes.

There is no direct physical evidence of him in any video footage of rapes.

I don’t know what to believe but I know I don’t believe the public narrative from the prosecutors.

 

[Mex]

These Revelations and unforeseen developments may not be a surprise to the Court, only to us who have been previously been fed the prosecution version by an imaginative media

I think you may be partly right but for the wrong reasons.

When charges against a suspect are laid ALL the available evidence is handed over to the defence team to assist their representation of their client.

When the evidence is evaluated then the bun fight starts as it did regarding the five cases with the jurisdiction argument or 'round one'.
My opinion

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Indeed so but the courts are wizening up to that particular ploy
Snip
A jury of seven women and five men took just five hours to unanimously agree that the accused, who cannot be named, had murdered GM in the hotel room where they had gone after their night out.
The accused showed no emotion as the verdict was read out.

Grace Millane trial: New Zealand man found guilty of murdering British backpacker

A jury in Auckland has decided a 27-year-old, whose name has been suppressed, knowingly killed the British tourist

www.theguardian.com

The fact remains that CB's convictions included assaults on minors and his present indictments include two alleged attacks aimed at minors as well as the horrendously violent rape of a young woman.

The offender in this case was caught red-handed. What other possible defence could he have used? It was a weak defence which was destroyed by an avalanche of quality CCTV, forensic and digital evidence.

A very different scenario to what we are seeing with CB.

 

[Davieson]

Who are the CB legal team trying to impress then as they follow one piece of theatre with the next?
Questioning the previous CB rape case judge was playing a blinder,
My opinion

I don't see them as trying to impress anyone. They are attempting to persuade the judges that the entire prosecution case is flawed and using whatever means they have available.
As we don't have a live feed to the court we cannot know how they are behaving. we only have woefully inadequate media reporting to make opinions on.

I think you may be partly right but for the wrong reasons.

When charges against a suspect are laid ALL the available evidence is handed over to the defence team to assist their representation of their client.

When the evidence is evaluated then the bun fight starts as it did regarding the five cases with the jurisdiction argument or 'round one'.
My opinion

The point I was making was that is not a surprise to the court. All the witnesses are known in advance to the judges as will the broad lines of questioning

 

[RichardKimble]

I don't see them as trying to impress anyone. They are attempting to persuade the judges that the entire prosecution case is flawed and using whatever means they have available.
As we don't have a live feed to the court we cannot know how they are behaving. we only have woefully inadequate media reporting to make opinions on.

The point I was making was that is not a surprise to the court. All the witnesses are known in advance to the judges as will the broad lines of questioning

Full marks to the German courts, they are giving a fair crack to the prosecution and defence.

 

[Mex]

No doubt all CB’s offences were harrowing for the victims. However, the Salema Beach and playground incidents seem to be more characteristic of his prior record i.e. public exposure and masturbation in front of children, he has form for this.

The exception to this is DM’s rape. It is only this conviction that has made him a suspect in other rapes.

There is no direct physical evidence of him in any video footage of rapes.

I don’t know what to believe but I know I don’t believe the public narrative from the prosecutors.

The public narrative from the prosecutors regarding the five present indictments has been miniscule.
They have performed their task of collecting evidence against a suspect which is strong enough that it has been judged worthy of allowing indictments to be made.

There was forensic evidence supporting DM's witness statement and that is the evidence that convicted him.
He was only convicted because the police were able to investigate a suspect identified by the witness statements which evidence tied in with with what the police investigation uncovered. "Tall oaks" as the saying goes.

No sexual offence is trivial. Particularly those involving minors.
For example regarding the beach offence with which CB has been charged; the potential was there for that little girl to have vanished from the beach and never being seen again. Allegedly the assailant tried to entice him to go with him. Fortunately she had support there who raised the alarm with her allowing her escape.

 

[Mex]

The offender in this case was caught red-handed. What other possible defence could he have used? It was a weak defence which was destroyed by an avalanche of quality CCTV, forensic and digital evidence.

A very different scenario to what we are seeing with CB.

I don't think it was quite as simple as that. Without investigative intervention the chances are the perpetrator could still be walking the streets of NZ or anywhere else in the world he wanted to go.

Regarding CB, we are seeing the same investigative process taking place. If the evidence against him is not strong enough he will be exonerated of one or all charges against him. If the evidence against him is strong enough he will be convicted of one or all of the charges made against him.
CB is not a "special case" at the moment he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. That will change only if the evidence against him is strong enough for a conviction.
My opinion