Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

Discussion in 'Long Island Serial Killer' started by Peter Brendt, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Hi,

    I open this thread for the discussion of the FB4 only. So no Shannan Gilbert focus please, just the four found wrapped in burlap at Gilgo Beach: Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Barthelmy, Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello.
     
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  3. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    The trick with the minimal victimology is, to concentrate on the victims, one knows, were killed by one and the same killer. In this case the GB4. The significant points for this victimology are:

    • Found in one clustered, revisitable dump site
    • Wrapped in burlap
    • All along the road
     
  4. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    Thank you so much Peter for starting this topic.

    One thing we do know is that our suspect has got to be familiar with NYC and the Bronx because there is zero proof that Maureen or Melissa were anywhere near Long Island when they disappeared.

    Maureen was most likely abducted in NYC and Melissa near her home in the Bronx.

    Does this not suggest that there is almost a 50% chance that the killer resides (or once resided) in NYC?
     
  5. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    I post the following links for those whom have not seen it. It gives some examples of what kind of work one would/could be doing using burlap and other uses.

    Ill read about the 4 women.
    Kinda surprised the LEOs released that information about the burlap.


    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlap[/ame]

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh"]Mortification of the flesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    And I agree the four killed by the same individual/s. Probably just one.
    Seemed to have stopped. after the 4th. The chances of someone else by chance wrapping them in burlap and then by chance leaving them in the same area as others I would say no chance.


    Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Barthelmy...Sounds like they came straight out of a phone-book/yearbook.

    What is Melissa's middle name?


    Peter what information, what stumbling blocks about these 4 you are trying to uncover/remove? Besides who killed them, What at this point are you wanting to know about these 4?

    http://gothamist.com/2011/04/04/three_more_bodies_in_burlap_sacks_f.php
    Part of the problem with finding the bodies is the underbrush is a thick "4-foot-tall tangle of sea grass punctuated by scrubby pine trees" (

    Police said a man was walking with his dog on a trail off of North Street, less than a mile west of Wading River Road, when he discovered human skeletal remains at approximately 6:30 p.m. The remains were found in a heavily wooded area just 300 feet north of the road, with trees "growing through" them.
     
  6. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    Somewhere in between?......That is a good distance from where they were last seen to where they were found yes?
     
  7. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Well, technically, since Megan was most of the time in NYC, I think, Bronx too and she and Cruz visited LI only twice a month (as in about all two weeks) to meet with clients, it's more like 62.5% or higher and if you calculate in Amber Lynn Costello lived basically in the middle between the LI scene on those islands and the club scene of Manhattan, it's probably at least 75% chance, the connection is NYC. The point, I don't know yet, is is it Bronx or rather Manhattan, the private club scene. Remember Megan offered femdom, that's an entirely different client profile than for the other three. The only place, they are near to each other appears to me the club area between Hell's Kitchen and 45th or 46th Street. Maureen. But then, I hesitate to send one of our locals to the whip clubs to sleuth around ...
     
  8. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    The behavioral side doesn't fit. If this would be a homicidal john, he would have to be sadist and masochist in one. So what we're looking for is a scene, a place, where basically all tastes mingle. I found one of those places, but feel uncertain whether there are more in the area.
     
  9. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    What about a rave I believe there called. Different places Different days etc.
    The motive here was to kill. It wasn't about sex first and foremost. But to kill that was the main motive. But instead of going out and finding a victim, he had them come to him.

    Didn't these girls keep a appointment book. Letting someone know if read where they were going and what time etc etc. I am confused about the Craigslist connection. How this developed.

    Do we have any of there advertisements to look at? How they presented themselves.
    They must had been independents yes?

    I am sure he made his own snuff tapes. To enjoy later.
     
  10. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    I don't know if there are sex scene raves, but that doesn't mean there aren't. Merely that I don't know.
    The problem I have with the "homicidal john" theory is, it doesn't fit on any level. As soon, as you have two different last johns or one of the girls "off-duty", you need to construct a lot to hold upright that theory. For example, Maureen was last heard off from that bus terminal. To make the homicidal john happen, you need to construct, she decided, against what was already her outspoken intention, to take on another client. This client had to happen by chance a serial killer in the making, who has already developed a fully blown signature, which means, also his hunting behavior was fully developed ... only, this one night, he had to be for unknown reasons under way in a car to meet by chance Maureen. You see, how far this construction has to go to bring all four under one hat. So I don't believe in a homicidal john. And if it would be one, we would have heard since a while from other Craigslist escorts, who had this strange wannabe john, they rejected, the whole works as usual in similar cases.
    Thus, their appointment book wouldn't help us. However, you can bet on him making video or stills not only while killing them but also before.
     
  11. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    I am searching the web, looking and reading information on the girls.
    And i was thinking a rave party, where its a secret place to hold a party, people attend this events dressed in all kinds of outfits and drugs like estacey are used. He could have hid his appearance going to these.

    But I agree this was no John. No sex John. He chose prostitutes because they are easy targets. But he was not a paying John. But I am sure he had has plenty of cash to pay these higher price women if he wanted to. This is no idiot.
    And spread out over time. A certain time would arise, and he would act upon it.

    Ill stop posting for now. And just read the web about the girls.
    Thank you for your help.
     
  12. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 New Member

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    As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

    Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

    The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

    So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

    • The promise of a large sum of money.
    • The promise of a large score of drugs.
    • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
    • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
    • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
    • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
    • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
    • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
    • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
    • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
    • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
    • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
    • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.
     
  13. Seajay

    Seajay Never pass up an opportunity to pee

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    Great list and whatever it was he told Megan and Amber, he got them to leave their cell phones at home along with it, giving them some story that seemed plausible to them.
     
  14. nugzter

    nugzter New Member

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    Here is an easy viewable chart for the GB4. Just to give us a visual resource.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    Its just a guess. But I don't think he killed them on the same day he met them for the first time. I think he may had groom them for that final day. And perhaps groomed over a period of time. Made them eventually feel comfortable with being with him from seeing him over a period of time.

    The first meeting sure they had there guards up because they knew the risk. But over a period of time with there interactions with him they became lapsed and just seen him as a person seeking companionship whatever.

    Could explain why the two left there cells at home. They were going away for awhile couple of days or whatever and decided they didn't want to be bothered with the phone so left it home on the charger.

    Did any of these women have vehicles? And if so where were they found?
    That last meeting place they went to, I suspect they had no driver of course to get there. And a cab was not a option. He could have just met them somewhere and picked them up himself. Or if any had a vehicle and drove it to the final place, He could have just returned it to where they were living to make it appear they had just vanished.

    Which MB sister received the phone-calls?
     
  16. PreciousDust

    PreciousDust New Member

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    I'm posting this because I'm interested in your comments about it; maybe you can help me add some pieces to a puzzle. I can't be too specific now, and I know that's frustrating - obviously it impedes your ability to assess my remarks; I hope I can be more forthcoming soon. Until recently, I was only peripherally aware of the Oak Beach killings, as I no longer live on Long Island. But a few weeks ago I did a sort of "where are they now" search on someone I once knew; he was sort of a scary person, and probably the first person I would've thought of if playing the "who from your hometown would you imagine to be a serial killer" game. When seeing that the internet info for this person (I'll call him POI from here on) showed an Oak Beach address for sometime after the period I knew him, I remembered the news stories about the serial killings. At which point I easily found a reference to the POI and burlap; he had access to plenty of it. Wondering if he might actually be a suspect in the case, on a lark I Google'd his name with the word "killer", immediately turning up a very odd claim by a blogger that my POI is the killer. I wrote the blogger twice, and he hasn't responded. My curiosity piqued, and already armed with my own knowledge of the POI, I continued to look into his activities over recent years, and he seems more and more like "a fit". Familiarity with the Oak Beach/Gilgo area? Check. Apartment in NYC? Check. Familiarity with police procedures (though he's not a cop or ex-cop), technologically savvy, independently wealthy, intelligent, persuasive and manipulative? "Checks" all around (the only major thing that differs from the standard LISK profiles I see is the age - this guy would have been slightly older). And, as I say, a bad apple, who was involved in two businesses (one illegal, one not) that are intrinsically related to the world that prostitutes live in. Another thing about my POI - he's dead, having passed away early last year. There are some odd things about that (the death, I mean, like no obits or funeral notices, but I guess I can understand that), and if I ever wrote a fictionalized novel of this I'd have all sorts of curious tangents to employ as plot lines.
    Anyway, I looked into it for a couple of weeks (on the net, and by talking to other people who had known the POI); I was trying to stay objective about it even as my certainty that it was at least a "hot lead" grew. The POI would surely, I surmised, be someone the police were already looking at; he'd had run-in's with the law previously. Still, I gave the TIPS line a call, but decided not to give them my story because I wasn't particularly impressed with the person I spoke with (and that could just be my personal experience, they might be top-notch otherwise). I dug around online for a Suffolk homicide number, discovered that the ones I was dialing weren't working, and finally got a good number from the front-desk of my hometown's police department. I spoke to a homicide detective who assured me he'd relay the information to the proper department. After a week, when I discovered a new link that was probably more significant than anything I'd already described to the detective, I called that detective back; he suggested I email him some information, which I did. After about another week went by (with, obviously, no contact from anyone), I called someone who is not a policeman but who would know them, and who would have a professional interest in seeing that good leads are pursued; someone who is, from what I can see on the net, a respected and competent person. Well, my story pretty much blew him away; he said that he'd heard so many stories about the LISK, but that mine really had something to it. He said he knows all the people on the task force dedicated to this crime, and that he'd be able to find out right away if my POI's name was in the database being worked. So I sent him a long email with links and pics. He got back to me saying that he'd forwarded my info to a certain detective (so, by inference, perhaps that means that my POI's name was not being looked at), and that he considered it likely that the detective would contact me. More than a week has gone by, and I've not been contacted.
    That's where it stands now. Maybe I'll be contacted next week, or maybe never. I can't very well keep prodding my recent contact, as he's done what he can to alert the police of my lead. In fact, other than write a fictionalized novel about it (and I'm only half-kidding there), I guess there's not much else I can do. To the extent that I can, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about my POI, though I'm not about to name him here or privately at this time; he did have a family. I'll say (maddeningly!) that I can see this POI not being a serial killer proper, perhaps more driven by a "motive" for dumping bodies where he did.
     
  17. CMan0928

    CMan0928 Former Member

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    Finally, someone that has something worthwhile to add around here. What are the links between burlap and your POI? Was the illegal "business" drug distribution?
     
  18. Samantha Spade

    Samantha Spade New Member

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    I found this interesting regarding the GB4:

    "Unknowingly, Susan Geiger had become a pawn in a very common ruse used by serial killers who target prostitutes. Richard Hansen from Alaska, the killer of eleven prostitutes, obtained telephone numbers of potential victims
    and called each of them later for a date. Then he would stake out the area where he was to meet them in advance of their appointment to assure himself that not one followed these women to the meeting site. Once convinced he had successfully isolated his victim, he picked her up and her fate was sealed." (Keppel & Birnes, 1997).

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...DpOhwn&sig=AHIEtbRA8Q3SL-w8ymKyc3kLissOSdOZhQ
     
  19. :+:MrTT:+:

    :+:MrTT:+: Cold Case Files

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    Can you tell us about any religious affiliations he made have had?
    Can you tell us his Race?

    In Reggae

    http://niceup.com/patois.html
    BABYLON : [​IMG]1. the corrupt establishment, the "system," Church and State 2. the police, a policeman (1)

    BALD-HEAD : a straight person; one without dreadlocks; one who works for babylon (2)
    CROCUS BAG : a very large sack made of coarse cloth, like burlap (10)

    CREATION STEPPER : means you step it in and throughout Babylon without fear - cuttin' edge, livin' on the edge, fear no foe. Lookin justice in the eye and saying, What are you doin ?"!! (29)
     
  20. PreciousDust

    PreciousDust New Member

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    CMan, I pretty much went right to the edge (and, I hope, not past that point) on how much I think I should say regarding certain things. And I know that makes me seem like some sort of tease, but my defense there has to be that I've tried a couple of times to get all this info into LE's hands - and they could very well be pursuing it. On the other hand, a concern of mine (besides tipping people to a specific person who might very well not be the LISK, and whose family might then be subjected to the kind of grief that the nursery owner received), is that a case, albeit perhaps far-flung, could be made that the police wouldn't want to solve the case if my POI was the culprit; I know I shouldn't jump to that conclusion just because I haven't heard back from LE in a short period of time (in my emails to them, and to my contact who forwarded it to them, I make it clear that I have a lot more to show them if they want to see it, some of it links I had to "work backwards" into, i.e. stuff that won't come up in searches). Further, I'll tell you that, besides the cops and my contact and my own family members (my ex-wife thinks I'm going to get myself killed, but she's got a flair for the dramatic), this board is the only place I'll talk about it. To the extent that I'm able to, I absolutely will post here any developments.

    MY POI was, of course, "born into" a religion, but I think the chances are just about nil that he considered God to be part of his life. I once briefly met the POI's mother, and can't imagine she was trying to instill any faith in the POI. The POI was white.
     
  21. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    That would be Amanda

    The first big problem with the "homividal john" theory is Maureen Brainard-Barnes. No actual sign, she took on a john more this night. The trace gets lost at the bus terminal.
    Then again, the question is, how would the killer know there was a fitting victim available at this bus terminal at this time of the night? The answer is simple, he must have stalked her and snatched her when he was good and ready and the situation enabled him to do so.

    So if we look at that, we have to compare this to the other victims. Melissa Barthelmy was last seen waiting for a car bringing her to her next client. I've read nothing about this client was identified, but if LE identified him, we wouldn't hear it anywhere because they would keep it a secret and be it for keeping others from doing their job. So by all I know, there are two possibilities: Either the john killed her or she was snatched on the way back. The "homicidal john" would make me stretch the laws of probability again, because I would need to connect all four victims to the same john witch is unlikely since media reported, LE was looking for one case into a state trooper or something, but not in the other cases. Also would a local john live all the year in the area and that appears to be contradicted by the timeline. But a stalker could have snatched her on the way back and that is consistent with Maureen Brainard-Barnes.

    The even bigger problem for a "homicidal john" theory is Megan Waterman. She offered, opposite to the other three victims, female domination. The last thing, this guy wants is to be dominated. So he certainly didn't book her earlier for dates. However, a stalker, who had no previous sexual contact with her, fits the bill once more. He could have snatched her on the way back, if she visited a client at all that night. Think about cell phone for a moment. Who would keep the phone? The prostitute or the pimp, who would have it most of the time anyway? Clearly, Cruz would say, she ran her business alone and he only helped her from time to time, but is that credible? By all means, a pimp needs to stay in control over the girl's business, right. So, once more, we end up with the same situation, only we have three possibilities:

    - She was killed by a john, which makes us stretch probabilities again because he would need to be by chance the killer of the other victims too and one wasn't booked anymore after her last sign of life. Only it would be a john now, who is a sadist and a masochist at the same time and, for the first time, this john would act actually in Long Island on the islands.

    - She was snatched by a stalker on the way back from a client. This would fit a stalker.

    - She wasn't going to a client. All we know is, she wandered out of the hotel. She could have gone the same to the convenience store not far away. Which would have, because of the empty spot near to the hotel, opened the window for a stalker type as well.

    Now we have still Amber Lynn Costello. First thing to notice is, she wasn't that long in the area and if she didn't ad on the first day and attracted this "homicidal john" on the first day, there was not enough time to groom her extensively. Even more, the story of a john offering $1500 and calling till she gave in to go to him has a certain ring to it. This indicates some kind of desperation. This is not the mindset of someone, who would think "you know one, you know all" in the sense of viewing them as replaceable. She had in inherent value to this caller and that is diametrical contradictory to the mindset that showed up in the dump site later. And once more, a "homicidal john" would stretch the laws of probability because at this point, he would have needed already to run into Maureen by accident and be at the same time a sadist and a masochist. While a stalker, whose attention was stirred in their usual business area, could fit the bill in all points.
    But then, this is only my opinion. Till the guy is caught, nobody will know for sure and maybe not in all details even then.

    On a half-related sidenote: I suspect myself to have maybe a little glitch in the victimology. It appears as if the victims had one details more in common than being female and looking Caucasian. They appear all to be not too tall (from small to barely average). This could change the profile a little in two aspects:
    - the height of the killer
    - and it opens the door for another underlying motive in the victim selection
    But I'm not sure yet, I need to get some more information before I rewrite the whole profile and then it would stay in many points still the same.
     

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