Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

What about a rave I believe there called. Different places Different days etc.
The motive here was to kill. It wasn't about sex first and foremost. But to kill that was the main motive. But instead of going out and finding a victim, he had them come to him.

Didn't these girls keep a appointment book. Letting someone know if read where they were going and what time etc etc. I am confused about the Craigslist connection. How this developed.

Do we have any of there advertisements to look at? How they presented themselves.
They must had been independents yes?

I am sure he made his own snuff tapes. To enjoy later.

I don't know if there are sex scene raves, but that doesn't mean there aren't. Merely that I don't know.
The problem I have with the "homicidal john" theory is, it doesn't fit on any level. As soon, as you have two different last johns or one of the girls "off-duty", you need to construct a lot to hold upright that theory. For example, Maureen was last heard off from that bus terminal. To make the homicidal john happen, you need to construct, she decided, against what was already her outspoken intention, to take on another client. This client had to happen by chance a serial killer in the making, who has already developed a fully blown signature, which means, also his hunting behavior was fully developed ... only, this one night, he had to be for unknown reasons under way in a car to meet by chance Maureen. You see, how far this construction has to go to bring all four under one hat. So I don't believe in a homicidal john. And if it would be one, we would have heard since a while from other Craigslist escorts, who had this strange wannabe john, they rejected, the whole works as usual in similar cases.
Thus, their appointment book wouldn't help us. However, you can bet on him making video or stills not only while killing them but also before.
 
I don't know if there are sex scene raves, but that doesn't mean there aren't. Merely that I don't know.
The problem I have with the "homicidal john" theory is, it doesn't fit on any level. As soon, as you have two different last johns or one of the girls "off-duty", you need to construct a lot to hold upright that theory. For example, Maureen was last heard off from that bus terminal. To make the homicidal john happen, you need to construct, she decided, against what was already her outspoken intention, to take on another client. This client had to happen by chance a serial killer in the making, who has already developed a fully blown signature, which means, also his hunting behavior was fully developed ... only, this one night, he had to be for unknown reasons under way in a car to meet by chance Maureen. You see, how far this construction has to go to bring all four under one hat. So I don't believe in a homicidal john. And if it would be one, we would have heard since a while from other Craigslist escorts, who had this strange wannabe john, they rejected, the whole works as usual in similar cases.
Thus, their appointment book wouldn't help us. However, you can bet on him making video or stills not only while killing them but also before.
I am searching the web, looking and reading information on the girls.
And i was thinking a rave party, where its a secret place to hold a party, people attend this events dressed in all kinds of outfits and drugs like estacey are used. He could have hid his appearance going to these.

But I agree this was no John. No sex John. He chose prostitutes because they are easy targets. But he was not a paying John. But I am sure he had has plenty of cash to pay these higher price women if he wanted to. This is no idiot.
And spread out over time. A certain time would arise, and he would act upon it.

Ill stop posting for now. And just read the web about the girls.
Thank you for your help.
 
As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

  • The promise of a large sum of money.
  • The promise of a large score of drugs.
  • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
  • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
  • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
  • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
  • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
  • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
  • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
  • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
  • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
  • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
  • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.
 
As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

  • The promise of a large sum of money.
  • The promise of a large score of drugs.
  • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
  • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
  • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
  • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
  • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
  • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
  • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
  • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
  • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
  • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
  • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.

Great list and whatever it was he told Megan and Amber, he got them to leave their cell phones at home along with it, giving them some story that seemed plausible to them.
 
Here is an easy viewable chart for the GB4. Just to give us a visual resource.
 

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As we all know, the girls seemed to comfortably let their guard down. There has been all sorts of speculation as to the LISK portraying himself as law enforcement, a political leader or even a VIP in an organized crime family (one of my thoughts). I have been exploring this from another angle;

Asking- What did each of the GB4 need or want so badly?

The thought process here is that if a person needs or wants something bad enough, they will be willing to go outside of their comfort zone to get it.

So here is my short list of motivators that the LISK could have possibly utilized to lure them in;

  • The promise of a large sum of money.
  • The promise of a large score of drugs.
  • The promise of an escape from the hold of a pimp.
  • The promise of a better life for them & their children (for those with kids).
  • The promise of a clean escape from the business.
  • The promise of a real job to replace the escorting.
  • The promise of something expensive (like a new car or expensive jewelry).
  • The promise not to hurt them or their families (as a blackmail tactic).
  • The promise to star in a high paying adult movie.
  • The promise of access to more higher paying clientele.
  • The promise to take them on an exotic vacation.
  • The promise to bring them to a party where they could meet celebrities.
  • The promise of a date with a celebrity or other extremely wealthy man.

Its just a guess. But I don't think he killed them on the same day he met them for the first time. I think he may had groom them for that final day. And perhaps groomed over a period of time. Made them eventually feel comfortable with being with him from seeing him over a period of time.

The first meeting sure they had there guards up because they knew the risk. But over a period of time with there interactions with him they became lapsed and just seen him as a person seeking companionship whatever.

Could explain why the two left there cells at home. They were going away for awhile couple of days or whatever and decided they didn't want to be bothered with the phone so left it home on the charger.

Did any of these women have vehicles? And if so where were they found?
That last meeting place they went to, I suspect they had no driver of course to get there. And a cab was not a option. He could have just met them somewhere and picked them up himself. Or if any had a vehicle and drove it to the final place, He could have just returned it to where they were living to make it appear they had just vanished.

Which MB sister received the phone-calls?
 
I'm posting this because I'm interested in your comments about it; maybe you can help me add some pieces to a puzzle. I can't be too specific now, and I know that's frustrating - obviously it impedes your ability to assess my remarks; I hope I can be more forthcoming soon. Until recently, I was only peripherally aware of the Oak Beach killings, as I no longer live on Long Island. But a few weeks ago I did a sort of "where are they now" search on someone I once knew; he was sort of a scary person, and probably the first person I would've thought of if playing the "who from your hometown would you imagine to be a serial killer" game. When seeing that the internet info for this person (I'll call him POI from here on) showed an Oak Beach address for sometime after the period I knew him, I remembered the news stories about the serial killings. At which point I easily found a reference to the POI and burlap; he had access to plenty of it. Wondering if he might actually be a suspect in the case, on a lark I Google'd his name with the word "killer", immediately turning up a very odd claim by a blogger that my POI is the killer. I wrote the blogger twice, and he hasn't responded. My curiosity piqued, and already armed with my own knowledge of the POI, I continued to look into his activities over recent years, and he seems more and more like "a fit". Familiarity with the Oak Beach/Gilgo area? Check. Apartment in NYC? Check. Familiarity with police procedures (though he's not a cop or ex-cop), technologically savvy, independently wealthy, intelligent, persuasive and manipulative? "Checks" all around (the only major thing that differs from the standard LISK profiles I see is the age - this guy would have been slightly older). And, as I say, a bad apple, who was involved in two businesses (one illegal, one not) that are intrinsically related to the world that prostitutes live in. Another thing about my POI - he's dead, having passed away early last year. There are some odd things about that (the death, I mean, like no obits or funeral notices, but I guess I can understand that), and if I ever wrote a fictionalized novel of this I'd have all sorts of curious tangents to employ as plot lines.
Anyway, I looked into it for a couple of weeks (on the net, and by talking to other people who had known the POI); I was trying to stay objective about it even as my certainty that it was at least a "hot lead" grew. The POI would surely, I surmised, be someone the police were already looking at; he'd had run-in's with the law previously. Still, I gave the TIPS line a call, but decided not to give them my story because I wasn't particularly impressed with the person I spoke with (and that could just be my personal experience, they might be top-notch otherwise). I dug around online for a Suffolk homicide number, discovered that the ones I was dialing weren't working, and finally got a good number from the front-desk of my hometown's police department. I spoke to a homicide detective who assured me he'd relay the information to the proper department. After a week, when I discovered a new link that was probably more significant than anything I'd already described to the detective, I called that detective back; he suggested I email him some information, which I did. After about another week went by (with, obviously, no contact from anyone), I called someone who is not a policeman but who would know them, and who would have a professional interest in seeing that good leads are pursued; someone who is, from what I can see on the net, a respected and competent person. Well, my story pretty much blew him away; he said that he'd heard so many stories about the LISK, but that mine really had something to it. He said he knows all the people on the task force dedicated to this crime, and that he'd be able to find out right away if my POI's name was in the database being worked. So I sent him a long email with links and pics. He got back to me saying that he'd forwarded my info to a certain detective (so, by inference, perhaps that means that my POI's name was not being looked at), and that he considered it likely that the detective would contact me. More than a week has gone by, and I've not been contacted.
That's where it stands now. Maybe I'll be contacted next week, or maybe never. I can't very well keep prodding my recent contact, as he's done what he can to alert the police of my lead. In fact, other than write a fictionalized novel about it (and I'm only half-kidding there), I guess there's not much else I can do. To the extent that I can, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about my POI, though I'm not about to name him here or privately at this time; he did have a family. I'll say (maddeningly!) that I can see this POI not being a serial killer proper, perhaps more driven by a "motive" for dumping bodies where he did.
 
I'm posting this because I'm interested in your comments about it; maybe you can help me add some pieces to a puzzle. I can't be too specific now, and I know that's frustrating - obviously it impedes your ability to assess my remarks; I hope I can be more forthcoming soon. Until recently, I was only peripherally aware of the Oak Beach killings, as I no longer live on Long Island. But a few weeks ago I did a sort of "where are they now" search on someone I once knew; he was sort of a scary person, and probably the first person I would've thought of if playing the "who from your hometown would you imagine to be a serial killer" game. When seeing that the internet info for this person (I'll call him POI from here on) showed an Oak Beach address for sometime after the period I knew him, I remembered the news stories about the serial killings. At which point I easily found a reference to the POI and burlap; he had access to plenty of it. Wondering if he might actually be a suspect in the case, on a lark I Google'd his name with the word "killer", immediately turning up a very odd claim by a blogger that my POI is the killer. I wrote the blogger twice, and he hasn't responded. My curiosity piqued, and already armed with my own knowledge of the POI, I continued to look into his activities over recent years, and he seems more and more like "a fit". Familiarity with the Oak Beach/Gilgo area? Check. Apartment in NYC? Check. Familiarity with police procedures (though he's not a cop or ex-cop), technologically savvy, independently wealthy, intelligent, persuasive and manipulative? "Checks" all around (the only major thing that differs from the standard LISK profiles I see is the age - this guy would have been slightly older). And, as I say, a bad apple, who was involved in two businesses (one illegal, one not) that are intrinsically related to the world that prostitutes live in. Another thing about my POI - he's dead, having passed away early last year. There are some odd things about that (the death, I mean, like no obits or funeral notices, but I guess I can understand that), and if I ever wrote a fictionalized novel of this I'd have all sorts of curious tangents to employ as plot lines.
Anyway, I looked into it for a couple of weeks (on the net, and by talking to other people who had known the POI); I was trying to stay objective about it even as my certainty that it was at least a "hot lead" grew. The POI would surely, I surmised, be someone the police were already looking at; he'd had run-in's with the law previously. Still, I gave the TIPS line a call, but decided not to give them my story because I wasn't particularly impressed with the person I spoke with (and that could just be my personal experience, they might be top-notch otherwise). I dug around online for a Suffolk homicide number, discovered that the ones I was dialing weren't working, and finally got a good number from the front-desk of my hometown's police department. I spoke to a homicide detective who assured me he'd relay the information to the proper department. After a week, when I discovered a new link that was probably more significant than anything I'd already described to the detective, I called that detective back; he suggested I email him some information, which I did. After about another week went by (with, obviously, no contact from anyone), I called someone who is not a policeman but who would know them, and who would have a professional interest in seeing that good leads are pursued; someone who is, from what I can see on the net, a respected and competent person. Well, my story pretty much blew him away; he said that he'd heard so many stories about the LISK, but that mine really had something to it. He said he knows all the people on the task force dedicated to this crime, and that he'd be able to find out right away if my POI's name was in the database being worked. So I sent him a long email with links and pics. He got back to me saying that he'd forwarded my info to a certain detective (so, by inference, perhaps that means that my POI's name was not being looked at), and that he considered it likely that the detective would contact me. More than a week has gone by, and I've not been contacted.
That's where it stands now. Maybe I'll be contacted next week, or maybe never. I can't very well keep prodding my recent contact, as he's done what he can to alert the police of my lead. In fact, other than write a fictionalized novel about it (and I'm only half-kidding there), I guess there's not much else I can do. To the extent that I can, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about my POI, though I'm not about to name him here or privately at this time; he did have a family. I'll say (maddeningly!) that I can see this POI not being a serial killer proper, perhaps more driven by a "motive" for dumping bodies where he did.

Finally, someone that has something worthwhile to add around here. What are the links between burlap and your POI? Was the illegal "business" drug distribution?
 
I found this interesting regarding the GB4:

"Unknowingly, Susan Geiger had become a pawn in a very common ruse used by serial killers who target prostitutes. Richard Hansen from Alaska, the killer of eleven prostitutes, obtained telephone numbers of potential victims
and called each of them later for a date. Then he would stake out the area where he was to meet them in advance of their appointment to assure himself that not one followed these women to the meeting site. Once convinced he had successfully isolated his victim, he picked her up and her fate was sealed." (Keppel & Birnes, 1997).

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...DpOhwn&sig=AHIEtbRA8Q3SL-w8ymKyc3kLissOSdOZhQ
 
I'm posting this because I'm interested in your comments about it; maybe you can help me add some pieces to a puzzle. I can't be too specific now, and I know that's frustrating - obviously it impedes your ability to assess my remarks; I hope I can be more forthcoming soon. Until recently, I was only peripherally aware of the Oak Beach killings, as I no longer live on Long Island. But a few weeks ago I did a sort of "where are they now" search on someone I once knew; he was sort of a scary person, and probably the first person I would've thought of if playing the "who from your hometown would you imagine to be a serial killer" game. When seeing that the internet info for this person (I'll call him POI from here on) showed an Oak Beach address for sometime after the period I knew him, I remembered the news stories about the serial killings. At which point I easily found a reference to the POI and burlap; he had access to plenty of it. Wondering if he might actually be a suspect in the case, on a lark I Google'd his name with the word "killer", immediately turning up a very odd claim by a blogger that my POI is the killer. I wrote the blogger twice, and he hasn't responded. My curiosity piqued, and already armed with my own knowledge of the POI, I continued to look into his activities over recent years, and he seems more and more like "a fit". Familiarity with the Oak Beach/Gilgo area? Check. Apartment in NYC? Check. Familiarity with police procedures (though he's not a cop or ex-cop), technologically savvy, independently wealthy, intelligent, persuasive and manipulative? "Checks" all around (the only major thing that differs from the standard LISK profiles I see is the age - this guy would have been slightly older). And, as I say, a bad apple, who was involved in two businesses (one illegal, one not) that are intrinsically related to the world that prostitutes live in. Another thing about my POI - he's dead, having passed away early last year. There are some odd things about that (the death, I mean, like no obits or funeral notices, but I guess I can understand that), and if I ever wrote a fictionalized novel of this I'd have all sorts of curious tangents to employ as plot lines.
Anyway, I looked into it for a couple of weeks (on the net, and by talking to other people who had known the POI); I was trying to stay objective about it even as my certainty that it was at least a "hot lead" grew. The POI would surely, I surmised, be someone the police were already looking at; he'd had run-in's with the law previously. Still, I gave the TIPS line a call, but decided not to give them my story because I wasn't particularly impressed with the person I spoke with (and that could just be my personal experience, they might be top-notch otherwise). I dug around online for a Suffolk homicide number, discovered that the ones I was dialing weren't working, and finally got a good number from the front-desk of my hometown's police department. I spoke to a homicide detective who assured me he'd relay the information to the proper department. After a week, when I discovered a new link that was probably more significant than anything I'd already described to the detective, I called that detective back; he suggested I email him some information, which I did. After about another week went by (with, obviously, no contact from anyone), I called someone who is not a policeman but who would know them, and who would have a professional interest in seeing that good leads are pursued; someone who is, from what I can see on the net, a respected and competent person. Well, my story pretty much blew him away; he said that he'd heard so many stories about the LISK, but that mine really had something to it. He said he knows all the people on the task force dedicated to this crime, and that he'd be able to find out right away if my POI's name was in the database being worked. So I sent him a long email with links and pics. He got back to me saying that he'd forwarded my info to a certain detective (so, by inference, perhaps that means that my POI's name was not being looked at), and that he considered it likely that the detective would contact me. More than a week has gone by, and I've not been contacted.
That's where it stands now. Maybe I'll be contacted next week, or maybe never. I can't very well keep prodding my recent contact, as he's done what he can to alert the police of my lead. In fact, other than write a fictionalized novel about it (and I'm only half-kidding there), I guess there's not much else I can do. To the extent that I can, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about my POI, though I'm not about to name him here or privately at this time; he did have a family. I'll say (maddeningly!) that I can see this POI not being a serial killer proper, perhaps more driven by a "motive" for dumping bodies where he did.

Can you tell us about any religious affiliations he made have had?
Can you tell us his Race?

In Reggae

http://niceup.com/patois.html
BABYLON : 1. the corrupt establishment, the "system," Church and State 2. the police, a policeman (1)

BALD-HEAD : a straight person; one without dreadlocks; one who works for babylon (2)
CROCUS BAG : a very large sack made of coarse cloth, like burlap (10)

CREATION STEPPER : means you step it in and throughout Babylon without fear - cuttin' edge, livin' on the edge, fear no foe. Lookin justice in the eye and saying, What are you doin ?"!! (29)
 
Finally, someone that has something worthwhile to add around here. What are the links between burlap and your POI? Was the illegal "business" drug distribution?
CMan, I pretty much went right to the edge (and, I hope, not past that point) on how much I think I should say regarding certain things. And I know that makes me seem like some sort of tease, but my defense there has to be that I've tried a couple of times to get all this info into LE's hands - and they could very well be pursuing it. On the other hand, a concern of mine (besides tipping people to a specific person who might very well not be the LISK, and whose family might then be subjected to the kind of grief that the nursery owner received), is that a case, albeit perhaps far-flung, could be made that the police wouldn't want to solve the case if my POI was the culprit; I know I shouldn't jump to that conclusion just because I haven't heard back from LE in a short period of time (in my emails to them, and to my contact who forwarded it to them, I make it clear that I have a lot more to show them if they want to see it, some of it links I had to "work backwards" into, i.e. stuff that won't come up in searches). Further, I'll tell you that, besides the cops and my contact and my own family members (my ex-wife thinks I'm going to get myself killed, but she's got a flair for the dramatic), this board is the only place I'll talk about it. To the extent that I'm able to, I absolutely will post here any developments.

Can you tell us about any religious affiliations he made have had? Can you tell us his Race?
MY POI was, of course, "born into" a religion, but I think the chances are just about nil that he considered God to be part of his life. I once briefly met the POI's mother, and can't imagine she was trying to instill any faith in the POI. The POI was white.
 
Its just a guess. But I don't think he killed them on the same day he met them for the first time. I think he may had groom them for that final day. And perhaps groomed over a period of time. Made them eventually feel comfortable with being with him from seeing him over a period of time.

The first meeting sure they had there guards up because they knew the risk. But over a period of time with there interactions with him they became lapsed and just seen him as a person seeking companionship whatever.

Could explain why the two left there cells at home. They were going away for awhile couple of days or whatever and decided they didn't want to be bothered with the phone so left it home on the charger.

Did any of these women have vehicles? And if so where were they found?
That last meeting place they went to, I suspect they had no driver of course to get there. And a cab was not a option. He could have just met them somewhere and picked them up himself. Or if any had a vehicle and drove it to the final place, He could have just returned it to where they were living to make it appear they had just vanished.

Which MB sister received the phone-calls?
That would be Amanda

The first big problem with the "homividal john" theory is Maureen Brainard-Barnes. No actual sign, she took on a john more this night. The trace gets lost at the bus terminal.
Then again, the question is, how would the killer know there was a fitting victim available at this bus terminal at this time of the night? The answer is simple, he must have stalked her and snatched her when he was good and ready and the situation enabled him to do so.

So if we look at that, we have to compare this to the other victims. Melissa Barthelmy was last seen waiting for a car bringing her to her next client. I've read nothing about this client was identified, but if LE identified him, we wouldn't hear it anywhere because they would keep it a secret and be it for keeping others from doing their job. So by all I know, there are two possibilities: Either the john killed her or she was snatched on the way back. The "homicidal john" would make me stretch the laws of probability again, because I would need to connect all four victims to the same john witch is unlikely since media reported, LE was looking for one case into a state trooper or something, but not in the other cases. Also would a local john live all the year in the area and that appears to be contradicted by the timeline. But a stalker could have snatched her on the way back and that is consistent with Maureen Brainard-Barnes.

The even bigger problem for a "homicidal john" theory is Megan Waterman. She offered, opposite to the other three victims, female domination. The last thing, this guy wants is to be dominated. So he certainly didn't book her earlier for dates. However, a stalker, who had no previous sexual contact with her, fits the bill once more. He could have snatched her on the way back, if she visited a client at all that night. Think about cell phone for a moment. Who would keep the phone? The prostitute or the pimp, who would have it most of the time anyway? Clearly, Cruz would say, she ran her business alone and he only helped her from time to time, but is that credible? By all means, a pimp needs to stay in control over the girl's business, right. So, once more, we end up with the same situation, only we have three possibilities:

- She was killed by a john, which makes us stretch probabilities again because he would need to be by chance the killer of the other victims too and one wasn't booked anymore after her last sign of life. Only it would be a john now, who is a sadist and a masochist at the same time and, for the first time, this john would act actually in Long Island on the islands.

- She was snatched by a stalker on the way back from a client. This would fit a stalker.

- She wasn't going to a client. All we know is, she wandered out of the hotel. She could have gone the same to the convenience store not far away. Which would have, because of the empty spot near to the hotel, opened the window for a stalker type as well.

Now we have still Amber Lynn Costello. First thing to notice is, she wasn't that long in the area and if she didn't ad on the first day and attracted this "homicidal john" on the first day, there was not enough time to groom her extensively. Even more, the story of a john offering $1500 and calling till she gave in to go to him has a certain ring to it. This indicates some kind of desperation. This is not the mindset of someone, who would think "you know one, you know all" in the sense of viewing them as replaceable. She had in inherent value to this caller and that is diametrical contradictory to the mindset that showed up in the dump site later. And once more, a "homicidal john" would stretch the laws of probability because at this point, he would have needed already to run into Maureen by accident and be at the same time a sadist and a masochist. While a stalker, whose attention was stirred in their usual business area, could fit the bill in all points.
But then, this is only my opinion. Till the guy is caught, nobody will know for sure and maybe not in all details even then.

On a half-related sidenote: I suspect myself to have maybe a little glitch in the victimology. It appears as if the victims had one details more in common than being female and looking Caucasian. They appear all to be not too tall (from small to barely average). This could change the profile a little in two aspects:
- the height of the killer
- and it opens the door for another underlying motive in the victim selection
But I'm not sure yet, I need to get some more information before I rewrite the whole profile and then it would stay in many points still the same.
 
I'm posting this because I'm interested in your comments about it; maybe you can help me add some pieces to a puzzle. I can't be too specific now, and I know that's frustrating - obviously it impedes your ability to assess my remarks; I hope I can be more forthcoming soon. Until recently, I was only peripherally aware of the Oak Beach killings, as I no longer live on Long Island. But a few weeks ago I did a sort of "where are they now" search on someone I once knew; he was sort of a scary person, and probably the first person I would've thought of if playing the "who from your hometown would you imagine to be a serial killer" game. When seeing that the internet info for this person (I'll call him POI from here on) showed an Oak Beach address for sometime after the period I knew him, I remembered the news stories about the serial killings. At which point I easily found a reference to the POI and burlap; he had access to plenty of it. Wondering if he might actually be a suspect in the case, on a lark I Google'd his name with the word "killer", immediately turning up a very odd claim by a blogger that my POI is the killer. I wrote the blogger twice, and he hasn't responded. My curiosity piqued, and already armed with my own knowledge of the POI, I continued to look into his activities over recent years, and he seems more and more like "a fit". Familiarity with the Oak Beach/Gilgo area? Check. Apartment in NYC? Check. Familiarity with police procedures (though he's not a cop or ex-cop), technologically savvy, independently wealthy, intelligent, persuasive and manipulative? "Checks" all around (the only major thing that differs from the standard LISK profiles I see is the age - this guy would have been slightly older). And, as I say, a bad apple, who was involved in two businesses (one illegal, one not) that are intrinsically related to the world that prostitutes live in. Another thing about my POI - he's dead, having passed away early last year. There are some odd things about that (the death, I mean, like no obits or funeral notices, but I guess I can understand that), and if I ever wrote a fictionalized novel of this I'd have all sorts of curious tangents to employ as plot lines.
Anyway, I looked into it for a couple of weeks (on the net, and by talking to other people who had known the POI); I was trying to stay objective about it even as my certainty that it was at least a "hot lead" grew. The POI would surely, I surmised, be someone the police were already looking at; he'd had run-in's with the law previously. Still, I gave the TIPS line a call, but decided not to give them my story because I wasn't particularly impressed with the person I spoke with (and that could just be my personal experience, they might be top-notch otherwise). I dug around online for a Suffolk homicide number, discovered that the ones I was dialing weren't working, and finally got a good number from the front-desk of my hometown's police department. I spoke to a homicide detective who assured me he'd relay the information to the proper department. After a week, when I discovered a new link that was probably more significant than anything I'd already described to the detective, I called that detective back; he suggested I email him some information, which I did. After about another week went by (with, obviously, no contact from anyone), I called someone who is not a policeman but who would know them, and who would have a professional interest in seeing that good leads are pursued; someone who is, from what I can see on the net, a respected and competent person. Well, my story pretty much blew him away; he said that he'd heard so many stories about the LISK, but that mine really had something to it. He said he knows all the people on the task force dedicated to this crime, and that he'd be able to find out right away if my POI's name was in the database being worked. So I sent him a long email with links and pics. He got back to me saying that he'd forwarded my info to a certain detective (so, by inference, perhaps that means that my POI's name was not being looked at), and that he considered it likely that the detective would contact me. More than a week has gone by, and I've not been contacted.
That's where it stands now. Maybe I'll be contacted next week, or maybe never. I can't very well keep prodding my recent contact, as he's done what he can to alert the police of my lead. In fact, other than write a fictionalized novel about it (and I'm only half-kidding there), I guess there's not much else I can do. To the extent that I can, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have about my POI, though I'm not about to name him here or privately at this time; he did have a family. I'll say (maddeningly!) that I can see this POI not being a serial killer proper, perhaps more driven by a "motive" for dumping bodies where he did.

Lets say, he would look more intriguing to me, if he wouldn't have lived at Oak Beach. Killers with clustered dump sites normally don't live in the neighborhood. Nevertheless, there is an exception from the rule. I remember a case in Italy, where an aging SK, who went undetected for like two decades, when he became due to illness unable to continue, moved near one of his bigger cluster sites to a kind of assisted living retirement home. So there is not much actually impossible in this business as long as it is physically possible.
What I would do in your situation, is making an additional checklist:

  • Did he die from an illness, something that he knew would coming and moved then to Oak Beach?
  • Did he drive a pickup or SUV?
  • Did his "business" lead him often away from the area, especially in fall, winter and spring?
  • Did he have some kind of religious background (which can be Christian, Jeweish or Muslim, but not Buddhist, Hinduist or Shinto)?

The first question is clear, that is if he felt the end coming and thus just moved nearer to his trophy yard.
The second question comes from the dumo site itself. It looks to me as if he carried the victims to were they were found, not just rolled them. Dead bodies are heavy and it's hard to pull one out of a normal sedan.
The third question refers to the timeline. LISK killed only in summer, so ha had to be somewhere else in the rest of the year.
The last question refers to burlao in connection with the fragments of the phone calls to Melissa Barthelmy's sister: The only point, he came back again and again, was lifestyle. This appears as a rudiment of some kind of moral compass induced in his youth. This touch of righteous outrage buried under other motives.

The other part of the story makes complete sense. It appears easier to move a mountain than bringing LE into motion in this case. Well, apparently not only this case, I have some more cases open in which I tried to make LE doing a little work on it and it usually ends in ignorance. So your story about LE is not that unusual, but SCPD is definitively even slower than others (with only one notable exception, that is Houston aka SK's paradise).
 
CMan, I pretty much went right to the edge (and, I hope, not past that point) on how much I think I should say regarding certain things. And I know that makes me seem like some sort of tease, but my defense there has to be that I've tried a couple of times to get all this info into LE's hands - and they could very well be pursuing it. On the other hand, a concern of mine (besides tipping people to a specific person who might very well not be the LISK, and whose family might then be subjected to the kind of grief that the nursery owner received), is that a case, albeit perhaps far-flung, could be made that the police wouldn't want to solve the case if my POI was the culprit; I know I shouldn't jump to that conclusion just because I haven't heard back from LE in a short period of time (in my emails to them, and to my contact who forwarded it to them, I make it clear that I have a lot more to show them if they want to see it, some of it links I had to "work backwards" into, i.e. stuff that won't come up in searches). Further, I'll tell you that, besides the cops and my contact and my own family members (my ex-wife thinks I'm going to get myself killed, but she's got a flair for the dramatic), this board is the only place I'll talk about it. To the extent that I'm able to, I absolutely will post here any developments.


MY POI was, of course, "born into" a religion, but I think the chances are just about nil that he considered God to be part of his life. I once briefly met the POI's mother, and can't imagine she was trying to instill any faith in the POI. The POI was white.

That would all together place him in the box with the sexual psychopaths. The real big garden variety box. To check this out, some more questions, you need to answer for yourself:
  • Does he have a history of domestic violence? That is no must, but pretty common in such cases.
  • Does have a history of changing relationships to women or no relationship at all?
  • Does in his childhood history one part of the role model appear missing? Like no dad in the picture or a very dominant mother? Or vice versa?

From what I read in your original post, he doesn't appear as a low self-esteem case to me.
 
If no luck with SCPD...then, if you are really determined for LE to respond to your belief that this guy may be responsible, turn all that you have over to the FBI.
 
Lets say, he would look more intriguing to me, if he wouldn't have lived at Oak Beach.
"Lived at" would be a stretch; much more likely that he'd have bought a house there for summer use, or even rented; from my experience, the address search sites will list all sorts of places that a person has had any association with. I was not particularly excited about seeing the Oak Beach address (actually, there's two that come up at one site, and they're both listed as Babylon addresses, though they're actually on Oak Beach); the POI would be familiar with Oak Beach regardless. I believe the Oak Beach addresses could very well stem from a time before the murders; at the same time, though, it would be virtually impossible that my POI wouldn't have been on Oak Beach for one reason or another sometime in the period from the late 90s until his time of death (in fact, in a seemingly non-sinister way, he can logically be placed there at one point). I believe that the POI's main residence was in NYC from the late 90's on (I've given that address, right down to the apartment number, to the police).

Did he die from an illness, something that he knew would coming and moved then to Oak Beach?
No, he wouldn't have been on Oak Beach when he died; he appears to have died suddenly and unexpectedly.

Did he drive a pickup or SUV?
I don't know, and though I know people who knew him (and, actually, a good friend of mine knows those people much better than I), I can't exactly start asking them questions like that. There is a connection there, though, not with pickups or SUVs precisely.

The last question refers to burlao in connection with the fragments of the phone calls to Melissa Barthelmy's sister: The only point, he came back again and again, was lifestyle. This appears as a rudiment of some kind of moral compass induced in his youth. This touch of righteous outrage buried under other motives.
Can you explain that, I'm really not as familiar with the nature of those calls as I should be. I asked my contact if those calls had been recorded and, if so, if they're being played to people who knew whatever suspects the police were coming up with, and he guessed they were.

The other part of the story makes complete sense. It appears easier to move a mountain than bringing LE into motion in this case.
Yes, I read there were internal wranglings and one-upmanship going on, and that's so regrettable in terms of how it might slow down justice. I have to say, though, that if I were to describe why I think LE could be reluctant to out my POI, those who are cynical about LE would think it's a lay-up that LE wouldn't pursue it (particularly as the POI is dead and not a threat to make the situation worse than it already is). From that point of view, which is conspiratorial and thus probably far-fetched, I'd be an idiot for pressing LE about my POI. Again, though, even more intriguing to me than how well my POI fits the profile, and how there's so much ancillary info about my POI that goes to and strengthens that profile, is that my POI should thus be a natural POI to LE - yet my experience with my contact led me to believe that he might not have been, for whatever reason.
 
Does he have a history of domestic violence? That is no must, but pretty common in such cases.
Not that I can tell, not that I can find evidence of, and I'd guess maybe not; there are women who could address this, of course, but I obviously can't ask them. He was, in my memory, a menacing person, but later photos of him show he'd learned to turn on a big ol' smile that I never saw back in the day.

Does have a history of changing relationships to women or no relationship at all?
He had a couple of what I would imagine to be long-term relationships, but he appears to have been something of a lothario as well, and was not (as best I can tell) in any serious relationship from 2000-on.

Does in his childhood history one part of the role model appear missing?
Yes.

From what I read in your original post, he doesn't appear as a low self-esteem case to me.
No, not low self-esteem or, rather, if he was feeling inferior, he "overcame" that by making himself the center of attention. It appears he cultivated, and assumed, a somewhat dynamic personality.
 
If no luck with SCPD...then, if you are really determined for LE to respond to your belief that this guy may be responsible, turn all that you have over to the FBI.

Geez, would they be easier to interest, and do they even have any jurisdiction if no federal investigation has been launched? Probably my "plan", as of right now, it to get back to my contact if some period of time elapses without hearing anything, and try to get his guidance on any next steps. Off-topic, and not to be too "interior", but part of this process for me, over the last few weeks, has been trying to understand what my own motivations might be here, trying to figure out what keeps drawing me to search down obscure avenues to answer questions that only I'm asking. As I get to "know" the POI better, I almost "relate" to him in some way - not to the awfulness of his crimes, of course, but to the ups and downs of his life outside of that; my ex-wife, who has read lots of mysteries, says that's common! What I've pretty much come up with in terms of why I'm spending time on this, besides the obvious altruistic goal of helping to bring closure to the families of victims, is that I'm looking to vindicate myself for sitting on my butt for over a year with too much time on my hands; I'm suing my ex-employer (and believe me, I'll win, and they deserve to lose), and it's been difficult finding new employment while that process goes on. It's somewhat distressing to think I'd like to somehow see myself lauded for helping to solve something so nasty and brutish, and I try to keep perspective on that by my full knowledge that, if ever interviewed, I'd just stammer and stare at the camera like a dolt.
 
That would be Amanda

The first big problem with the "homividal john" theory is Maureen Brainard-Barnes. No actual sign, she took on a john more this night. The trace gets lost at the bus terminal.
Then again, the question is, how would the killer know there was a fitting victim available at this bus terminal at this time of the night? The answer is simple, he must have stalked her and snatched her when he was good and ready and the situation enabled him to do so.

So if we look at that, we have to compare this to the other victims. Melissa Barthelmy was last seen waiting for a car bringing her to her next client. I've read nothing about this client was identified, but if LE identified him, we wouldn't hear it anywhere because they would keep it a secret and be it for keeping others from doing their job. So by all I know, there are two possibilities: Either the john killed her or she was snatched on the way back. The "homicidal john" would make me stretch the laws of probability again, because I would need to connect all four victims to the same john witch is unlikely since media reported, LE was looking for one case into a state trooper or something, but not in the other cases. Also would a local john live all the year in the area and that appears to be contradicted by the timeline. But a stalker could have snatched her on the way back and that is consistent with Maureen Brainard-Barnes.

The even bigger problem for a "homicidal john" theory is Megan Waterman. She offered, opposite to the other three victims, female domination. The last thing, this guy wants is to be dominated. So he certainly didn't book her earlier for dates. However, a stalker, who had no previous sexual contact with her, fits the bill once more. He could have snatched her on the way back, if she visited a client at all that night. Think about cell phone for a moment. Who would keep the phone? The prostitute or the pimp, who would have it most of the time anyway? Clearly, Cruz would say, she ran her business alone and he only helped her from time to time, but is that credible? By all means, a pimp needs to stay in control over the girl's business, right. So, once more, we end up with the same situation, only we have three possibilities:

- She was killed by a john, which makes us stretch probabilities again because he would need to be by chance the killer of the other victims too and one wasn't booked anymore after her last sign of life. Only it would be a john now, who is a sadist and a masochist at the same time and, for the first time, this john would act actually in Long Island on the islands.

- She was snatched by a stalker on the way back from a client. This would fit a stalker.

- She wasn't going to a client. All we know is, she wandered out of the hotel. She could have gone the same to the convenience store not far away. Which would have, because of the empty spot near to the hotel, opened the window for a stalker type as well.

Now we have still Amber Lynn Costello. First thing to notice is, she wasn't that long in the area and if she didn't ad on the first day and attracted this "homicidal john" on the first day, there was not enough time to groom her extensively. Even more, the story of a john offering $1500 and calling till she gave in to go to him has a certain ring to it. This indicates some kind of desperation. This is not the mindset of someone, who would think "you know one, you know all" in the sense of viewing them as replaceable. She had in inherent value to this caller and that is diametrical contradictory to the mindset that showed up in the dump site later. And once more, a "homicidal john" would stretch the laws of probability because at this point, he would have needed already to run into Maureen by accident and be at the same time a sadist and a masochist. While a stalker, whose attention was stirred in their usual business area, could fit the bill in all points.
But then, this is only my opinion. Till the guy is caught, nobody will know for sure and maybe not in all details even then.

On a half-related sidenote: I suspect myself to have maybe a little glitch in the victimology. It appears as if the victims had one details more in common than being female and looking Caucasian. They appear all to be not too tall (from small to barely average). This could change the profile a little in two aspects:
- the height of the killer
- and it opens the door for another underlying motive in the victim selection
But I'm not sure yet, I need to get some more information before I rewrite the whole profile and then it would stay in many points still the same.

I am interested in the foot note. Does that mean the killer is short or maybe even an ectomorph? Needing to find small women because they would be easier to over power? Also how would the height of the women effect the motive of the killer? Also, I remember before, you thought the killer was black basically because the victims were so different, other than being white, the appear to have nothing in common.. except they were escorts, white and apparently short women. Does the height effect that theory? Do you still believe he is black?
 
Investigators working blah blah blah....

I've read that story a whole bunch of times, in case it was directed at me (you didn't like my answer that my POI is white, maybe?). I didn't write to spread rumors about anyone, I think that's pretty obvious, but it's no loss to me if I stop posting now. I did already get one idea from something someone said to me here, so it's been a plus for me.
 

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