GUILTY GUILTY VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #9

[PAXIMUS]

Killing to prevent further killing is justified.

If the threat is immediate yes but neo con pre emptive strikes do not count IMO.

 

[dangrsmind]

Yea thats what makes me so interested in what he has to say, it will immediately determine if there is a real sociopathy there or not.

I dont see what real explanation he could have but he does seem to want to share one with everyone so I am willing to at least allow him that before I make my final judgement.

I'll be amazed if his attorney allows this...

Certainly anyone accused of a crime should be given the benefit of the doubt, considered innocent until proven guilty, etc. And of course the accused should be given the opportunity to tell their side. The problem I see here is that pretty much anything he says about his reasons (other than claiming he was set up and didn't do it at all) is going to dig a deeper hole for him with a jury.

Regardless about what was done to him, there really can't be any conceivable justification for killing Emma's father can there? How could the pastor pose any threat to Sam or anyone else that would justify his killing when he wasn't even at the house for days? He can say whatever he wants to justify the other three killings, including that it was self defense, but as long as the pastor's murder remains inexplicable by his story he's going to be facing the death penalty. IMO.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I think the prosecution would be better served to bring in some kind of expert on music and music culture, instead of horrorcore "rappers". Experts would be able to relate that scene with any other form of music that's considered rebellious. I think it would go alot further towards showing that the music isn't what made Sam commit his crimes, if that's the angle the defense goes with.

I like a perfect storm defense, I think there are many reasons that all came together at once at the perfect time to cause this and I am not convinced had it not all come together as it did that Sam would have ever become a killer.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I'll be amazed if his attorney allows this...

Certainly anyone accused of a crime should be given the benefit of the doubt, considered innocent until proven guilty, etc. And of course the accused should be given the opportunity to tell their side. The problem I see here is that pretty much anything he says about his reasons (other than claiming he was set up and didn't do it at all) is going to dig a deeper hole for him with a jury.

Regardless about what was done to him, there really can't be any conceivable justification for killing Emma's father can there? How could the pastor pose any threat to Sam or anyone else that would justify his killing when he wasn't even at the house for days? He can say whatever he wants to justify the other three killings, including that it was self defense, but as long as the pastor's murder remains inexplicable by his story he's going to be facing the death penalty. IMO.

Well I seriously doubt he will take the stand but at some point we will hear from Sam and I cant wait.

I dont think there is a good explanation for what happened but stranger things have occured.


I agree that if he does get the DP it will be based on that whole lapse in time between the father andf the first 3.

 

[dangrsmind]

If the threat is immediate yes but neo con pre emptive strikes do not count IMO.

I refer you to the story of the Buddha and the ship captain.

(Hopefully I won't butcher this too much...)

In a previous life the Buddha was a crew member on a ship. In this life he had already nearly reached enlightenment and developed some of the sidhis (magic powers) but was not yet incarnated as a full Buddha. Through his clairvoyance (here meaning the ability to judge people's true intentions) he saw that the ship's captain had gone insane and was planning to scuttle the ship at sea. This act would certainly kill most if not all of the passengers and crew.

The Buddha saw that the Captain would incur great negative karma for his planned crime, and since there was no other way to prevent the murders, the Buddha killed the ship's captain. The Buddha does this with full knowledge that he is accepting the negative karma for his action of killing the Captain. His action is spoken of as compassionate and skillful because the Buddha accepts the negative karma and suffering of others and becasue his actions prevented both the killing of innocent beings and the Captain from accruing negative karma.

IMO the threat need not be immediate to justify violent action, for example, if the threat is certain to be carried out in the future. In this story the Buddha foresees the Captain's future actions, but it is unclear how far in advance he does this. It is critical to remember that the Buddha had already reached enlightenment in this previous lifetime and therefore was supposedly able to know with certainty what the Captain planned to do. Unless one has the wisdom of a Buddha however, in most situations, we may not always be able to know what other people will do in advance nor can we be certain that no alternative to killing someone exists.

 

[Splendor Solis]

I like a perfect storm defense, I think there are many reasons that all came together at once at the perfect time to cause this and I am not convinced had it not all come together as it did that Sam would have ever become a killer.

I agree with you on that 100%. I think numerous things happened between the time he stepped foot off that plane, and when he first swung a weapon that led to the murders. I also think that only the murders of mel and emma are the ones which that defense can truly be used on. The murders of emma's mother and father were to cover his tracks only, imo.

 

[dangrsmind]

I like a perfect storm defense, I think there are many reasons that all came together at once at the perfect time to cause this and I am not convinced had it not all come together as it did that Sam would have ever become a killer.

Is this really a defense?

I agree with the perfect storm in some sense, but so what? Many of us have weathered "perfect storms" without killing anyone and likely so will several of the jury members.

 

[dangrsmind]

I agree with you on that 100%. I think numerous things happened between the time he stepped foot off that plane, and when he first swung a weapon that led to the murders. I also think that only the murders of mel and emma are the ones which that defense can truly be used on. The murders of emma's mother and father were to cover his tracks only, imo.

If you are right, he's facing death.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Is this really a defense?

I agree with the perfect storm in some sense, but so what? Many of us have weathered "perfect storms" without killing anyone and likely so will several of the jury members.

Well what I meant was that the defense may be best served arguing a combonation of things led to this. Mental health issues, the horrorcore influence, jealousy, rage, his childhood.

None of this is of course aimed at getting him off, but it may perhaps save his life.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I refer you to the story of the Buddha and the ship captain.

(Hopefully I won't butcher this too much...)

In a previous life the Buddha was a crew member on a ship. In this life he had already nearly reached enlightenment and developed some of the sidhis (magic powers) but was not yet incarnated as a full Buddha. Through his clairvoyance (here meaning the ability to judge people's true intentions) he saw that the ship's captain had gone insane and was planning to scuttle the ship at sea. This act would certainly kill most if not all of the passengers and crew.

The Buddha saw that the Captain would incur great negative karma for his planned crime, and since there was no other way to prevent the murders, the Buddha killed the ship's captain. The Buddha does this with full knowledge that he is accepting the negative karma for his action of killing the Captain. His action is spoken of as compassionate and skillful because the Buddha accepts the negative karma and suffering of others and becasue his actions prevented both the killing of innocent beings and the Captain from accruing negative karma.

IMO the threat need not be immediate to justify violent action, for example, if the threat is certain to be carried out in the future. In this story the Buddha foresees the Captain's future actions, but it is unclear how far in advance he does this. It is critical to remember that the Buddha had already reached enlightenment in this previous lifetime and therefore was supposedly able to know with certainty what the Captain planned to do. Unless one has the wisdom of a Buddha however, in most situations, we may not always be able to know what other people will do in advance nor can we be certain that no alternative to killing someone exists.

Good stuff!

 

[Splendor Solis]

If you are right, he's facing death.

You're right. I just keep going back to the reports earlier on that 2 of the murders happened some time before the 3rd. Then, even more time until the 4th. Considering Emma's mother lived there, that shows me that his anger was truly only directed at the first 2. If the perfect storm is correct then that would mean Emma and Mel were the first 2.

 

[dangrsmind]

Well what I meant was that the defense may be best served arguing a combonation of things led to this. Mental health issues, the horrorcore influence, jealousy, rage, his childhood.

None of this is of course aimed at getting him off, but it may perhaps save his life.

How about the ninja defense?

See http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_..._natavia_lowery_confessed_to_killing_bos.html

 

[PAXIMUS]

How about the ninja defense?

See http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_..._natavia_lowery_confessed_to_killing_bos.html

:laugh:

 

[dangrsmind]

:laugh:

Seriously though I think this story is sort of relevant. Here the assistant Natavia Lowery is verbally abused and her employer blows marijuana smoke in her face. Lowery loses her temper and beats an old woman to death with a cane.

We know the girls took drugs while Sam supposedly did not. And it makes sense that they might have ridiculed him or verbally abused him somehow. Then he apparently lost his temper and beat them to death.

The thing is Natavia Lowery is likely facing a death sentence here and IMO there is no way that a jury is going to find that her actions were justified even by the extreme verbal abuse of her employer. She could have just left and sued the woman after all.

I think Sam is in a similar situation only his story is arguably less credible. He also could have just left the house and Farmville if the girls were abusive to him. That isn't what he chose to do.

 

[dangrsmind]

Today's reading assignment: http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/32/1/63.pdf

Culpability for Inducing Mental States: The Insanity Defense of Dr. Jekyll

Insanity acquittees are often (erroneously) believed to get away with murder. This article examines one possible cause of this view—that insanity acquittees may have, to various degrees, caused or exacerbated their own mental disorder in the first instance. Such a component of prior fault is illustrated with recourse to the putative insanity defense of Dr. Jekyll, who, while almost certainly not criminally responsible at the time he committed murder (in the guise of Mr. Hyde), was culpable for bringing about that nullification of responsibility (thereby causing the conditions of his own defense). Such culpability (also found in intoxication cases) is examined in relation to medication noncompliance in mentally disordered offenders, and possible solutions for dealing with “culpable madness” are presented.

Now I have to do some real work though...

 

[tapu]

Well no.

It sounds like someone that does know the difference between right and wrong to me. If he actually didn't know the difference between right and wrong, he wouldn't offer a justification at all since he wouldn't be aware that he had done something wrong. He knows he did something wrong, he's just saying he had a reason. Not the same thing at all IMO...

Think about someone like Andrea Yates, and many others, who have been judged not to know right from wrong when they committed murders. They don't say, hey, what do you mean, why did I do it? Instead they say that they believed, for example, that the victim had the devil in them, or similar. What does it mean "not to be aware that he had done something wrong," if not, able to offer a justification for doing it when challenged?

 

[dangrsmind]

So clever of religions to build back exits for when things fall apart up front.

Well, I don't believe in literal reincarnation or this sort of karmic justice so that sort of throws a wrench in the works.

But the story has a number of layers and seems worthy of consideration to me. YMMV obviously.

 

[blouAngel]

Well, I don't believe in literal reincarnation or this sort of karmic justice so that sort of throws a wrench in the works.

But the story has a number of layers and seems worthy of consideration to me. YMMV obviously.

Why certainly! Wasn't it obvious that I was considering one of those layers?

 

[Heroine]

Hey guys!
I'm back, finally!
You know the virus I mentioned on here? Well I reformatted my computer and then (and I am not kidding) the very same day I got another one. The second one came from IE5 just by me opening it to do all my updates (IE8). So beware, make sure everything is up to date!!! They are very important!!!!
Some people have mentioned that a lot of people on here have gotten viruses. Honestly, I don't think it's this website, HOWEVER, i do think it could be a link that was posted that we ALL clicked and viewed at some point. So just be cautious!!! For right now though everything is all good and I made sure to update EVERYTHING thoroughly before attempting to proceed with my daily internet activity.
But, yeah... I'm back!!!
So glad to be here!!!!:dance:

 

[PAXIMUS]

Hey guys!
I'm back, finally!
You know the virus I mentioned on here? Well I reformatted my computer and then (and I am not kidding) the very same day I got another one. The second one came from IE5 just by me opening it to do all my updates (IE8). So beware, make sure everything is up to date!!! They are very important!!!!
Some people have mentioned that a lot of people on here have gotten viruses. Honestly, I don't think it's this website, HOWEVER, i do think it could be a link that was posted that we ALL clicked and viewed at some point. So just be cautious!!! For right now though everything is all good and I made sure to update EVERYTHING thoroughly before attempting to proceed with my daily internet activity.
But, yeah... I'm back!!!
So glad to be here!!!!:dance:

Im so happy youre back!


Yea I had to reformat and reinstall my OP last week same as you. My computer is better for it though. All OS's have limited shelf lives so periodic reformat and reinstalls are needed anyway.