Hannah Graham: Body Recovered, 18 Oct, 2014 **Awaiting Forensic Confirmation** #5

[Dushi]

No longer feeling certain that Hannah has been found

 

[Heroine]

I was only speculating originally and didn't even really believe my own self, but with this I'm thinking the teeth are missing somehow. I agree with those saying more than likely HG has dental x-rays to compare so that leaves me with the conclusion that there's an issue with the teeth. JMO.

I would say maybe JM knocked them out, but they said there didn't appear to be any broken bones wouldn't no teeth be considered broken bones?

 

[cluciano63]

I mentioned a while back of a dreaded gag order. Does anyone think a gag order would be a benefit or necessary for a fair trial? As far as releasing identity, I don't think LE rushing at this point. They probably need a little breather right now (as far as keeping up with media and going public with evidence) and don't really have the urgency now that they have the body. It's not like JM is going anywhere or has a chance to get out on bond. There's so much going on with possible connections to other cases it's prob smart to keep quiet until all the puzzle pieces fit together.

I do not think LE plans to release much anyway,once charges are in place. I don't think they meant to reveal Hannah's possible ID as it is, but someone jumped the gun. I would think feelings against JM locally are the worst anyway. Not sure much more damage could come as far as his "image". So gag order or not, I don't expect LE t be giving the press anything much to report before trials. Jmo

 

[teeandcee]

Question: If JM used lime or something to accelerate the decomp of the remains would that also dissolve the teeth? At least start dissolving them? I assume so.

Morgan was ID'd via dental records so I'm theorizing he learned from that and made a special effort to damage the teeth somehow. I still think this is HG.

 

[zapped]

Tugela, the Texas Senate had passed a bill in 2013 for taking dna including certain misdemeanor arrests. Not sure if the TX house has passed the bill and whether it has been signed into law as of 2014. There was a Supreme Court ruling in January 2014 affirming Marylands liberal dna laws on misdemeanor arrests.. JM gave a false name when questioned on the Galveston Beach. This may have opened the door for investigators to acquire his dna.. jmo
Many serial cold cases have been and would be solved with relaxed dna laws including familial dna laws, imo..
How many innocent victims lives could have been saved in JM's case if Virginia had relaxed/liberal dna laws, including misdemeanors and familial dna? JMO



Forget Fingerprints: Law Enforcement DNA Databases Poised To Expand
By Valerie Ross on Thu, 02 Jan 2014
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/body/dna-databases/
In June, the Supreme Court ruled that it is constitutional to take DNA samples from people who have been arrested for serious crimes—without a warrant, much less a conviction. Like bits of DNA taken from people found guilty, those samples can be entered into a database and used not only for the case at hand, but compared to other crime scene samples, connecting the arrestee to past crimes.

Not to mention JLM crossing state lines made him a FEDERAL fugitive. Hence the presence and supervision of the FBI before, during and after his transport to Va.

I would think that the automatic gathering of DNA would be a matter of routine for any federal fugitive.

 

[teeandcee]

I would say maybe JM knocked them out, but they said there didn't appear to be any broken bones wouldn't no teeth be considered broken bones?

I wondered this myself. A hammer would work, but it seems like that would damage the skull pretty extensively. I doubt he carefully tapped away at the teeth.

Edited to add he could have filed her teeth. Gives me the heebie jeebies typing that. I don't realistically picture him spending that amount of time, but who knows.

 

[MomnVA]

Neal Augenstein ‏@AugensteinWTOP 4m4 minutes ago
.@HawesSpencer source says search dogs are sniffing today near where remains found in #HannahGraham search

https://twitter.com/AugensteinWTOP

It could be I've missed something, but it's the first public mention I've heard of search dogs being around since Saturday's find.

 

[Whiteorchids]

This is a public interest story. It seems they would keep us updated like other high profile cases.

 

[squiddy]

Jeff Goldberg ‏@jgoldbergABC7 14m14 minutes ago

VA Medical Examiner's Office: no ID on remains found in #hannahgraham case, no timeframe as to when they will have answers

Arghh - THis is why I hate twitter - "no id on remains" can mean many things - what precisely did the ME tell him?

"They've been unable to make an identification of the remains" or "They can't identify the remains - but it's definitely not Hannah", or "We have an ID but we're not releasing at this time" - all are possible interpretations.

I was 99.99% sure it was Hannah - I'm at about 50% and falling ...

 

[RSC]

I was only speculating originally and didn't even really believe my own self, but with this I'm thinking the teeth are missing somehow. I agree with those saying more than likely HG has dental x-rays to compare so that leaves me with the conclusion that there's an issue with the teeth. JMO.

Here's my latest theory: (sleuthers, feel free to poke holes)
1. They strongly believe it is HG, and the pants have been identified as HG's
2. They sent the skull in to ID her
3. While some of the remains are HGs, the skull is not. There is more than one set of remains there.
4. Now they are looking for the skull.

 

[Dogface]

I wondered this myself. A hammer would work, but it seems like that would damage the skull pretty extensively. I doubt he carefully tapped away at the teeth.

Edited to add he could have filed her teeth. Gives me the heebie jeebies typing that. I don't realistically picture him spending that amount of time, but who knows.

I concur that I couldn't imagine him putting that much effort into it. However, after knowing his DNA was with MH, perhaps he thought he should do more to protect himself, and not being able to forensically link him to a crime scene or id a victim via use of an decomp accelerant and removing identifying features such as teeth could have been what he was thinking. Makes me think of poor Jasmine Fiore.

 

[RSC]

Question: If JM used lime or something to accelerate the decomp of the remains would that also dissolve the teeth? At least start dissolving them? I assume so.

Morgan was ID'd via dental records so I'm theorizing he learned from that and made a special effort to damage the teeth somehow. I still think this is HG.

Oh, that's an interesting theory as well.

ETA: my biggest concern with this theory is--if there were no teeth, why send the skull in for ID? Is that still the most likely source of identification? (I do not know the answer to this)

 

[Ghost Horses]

Ghost Horses, Just last week I was watering plants on the 3rd story deck when suddenly a HUGE turkey buzzard flew by so close I could have touched it. It was carrying something large in it's beak and crows were in fast pursuit right behind it. Freaked me out! So, yes they do fly with their meal in their beaks. I guess they fly off somewhere else to eat what is theirs and then go back for more and that's how bones are scattered throughout an area. JMPO

Wow, thank you for that tidbit! Just from what little I have observed of them, they do seem greedy and mean. Like they would retreat away from others so they didn't have to fight over food. I can really see them carrying off body parts/bones and spreading them all over by that type behavior! Can you imagine if this is the case?!?!?

 

[razzledazzle]

Here's my latest theory: (sleuthers, feel free to poke holes)
1. They strongly believe it is HG, and the pants have been identified as HG's
2. They sent the skull in to ID her
3. While some of the remains are HGs, the skull is not. There is more than one set of remains there.
4. Now they are looking for the skull.

BBM
This is what I have been thinking.

 

[teeandcee]

Here's my latest theory: (sleuthers, feel free to poke holes)
1. They strongly believe it is HG, and the pants have been identified as HG's
2. They sent the skull in to ID her
3. While some of the remains are HGs, the skull is not. There is more than one set of remains there.
4. Now they are looking for the skull.

Very interesting. That hadn't occurred to me at all, but it would certainly explain a lot, especially the lack of hair we've all been so mystified by.

 

[skibaboo]

It could be I've missed something, but it's the first public mention I've heard of search dogs being around since Saturday's find.

It's the first time I have seen dogs mentioned too, and I've actively been monitoring twitter for any news or updates.

 

[zapped]

What day was the house fire and how close was it to WC Park?

 

[rsbryswrrl]

Just as an aside on the wait...Richmond alone has had 10 murders since 9/15. Could just be a back log at the ME's office. It appears their office has a wide ranging swath of area to cover in VA from NOVA down to NC border.

(Edited my misspelling of "border".)

Just a thought - perhaps there are two things going on here (I hate even typing either of these things but here goes): 1) Due to buzzards/vultures, the bones they are finding are not all in one place, so they are having to piece together the skeleton they discovered in the creek bed. 2) They have found bones consistent with being more than one body/skeleton, so they are having to piece together more than one skeleton and will need to run DNA for each bone to determine who it belongs to.

 

[squiddy]

Question: If JM used lime or something to accelerate the decomp of the remains would that also dissolve the teeth? At least start dissolving them? I assume so.

Morgan was ID'd via dental records so I'm theorizing he learned from that and made a special effort to damage the teeth somehow. I still think this is HG.

Teeth are bone - in fact, tooth enamel is even harder than bone, and can last for hundreds, even thousands of years - when bodies are burned beyond recognition, it's often the teeth that are used to identify the remains, since they're the most resistant part of the body to fire. I don't think any kind of decomp process would've damaged the teeth to that extent, but perhaps a large scavenger took away the lower jawbone, and/or enough of the the upper teeth to make id difficult.

I guess the variable here is how recent and encompassing are her radiological dental records? If she's never had a filling, hasn't had any dental x-rays for 5 years, (remember, she's 18 - her permanent teeth aren't that old), etc, that might lead to uncertainty.

I can't imagine he'd go to the trouble of damaging the teeth - I've heard of people burning bodies, burying them, or removing their head/hands in extreme cases. But I suppose anything's possible.

 

[RSC]

BBM
This is what I have been thinking.

I keep trying to talk myself out of this gruesome idea, but I just don't think Chief Longo would have held that emotional presser if he didn't have very good reason to think it was HG.

This theory would explain the quiet from LE. Checking to see if it was HG and finding out it was not, trying to figure out who it might be, contacting that family and HGs, continuing to try to find something to ID hannah, AND trying to figure out how to strategize giving this horrid information to the public (keeping in mind that most locals are not following websleuths, and may be truly shocked) could take some time.

Also, if there are remains there that belong to AM or SC, they will be working like mad to figure out what to do about Randy Taylor.